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Do players like Duncan?


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#1
congokong

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I never liked him with any origin, but he really comes across as a "greater good" opportunist in the human noble origin. Note: I've only played Dalish, mage, and human noble. Duncan can be a douchebag in all of them but human noble stuck out the most. The pc can express no interest in becoming a Grey Warden but once Ser Gilmore is killed Duncan states "the blight demands" he leaves with a recruit. So indifferent to the fact that this grieving human noble's house has just been massacred with their parents dying on the floor, Duncan invokes the rite of conscription to force them into the Wardens. To me this is wrong on so many levels.

 

1. Duncan is denying the pc the opportunity of vengeance against Howe.

2. Becoming a Warden is a practically a death sentence either from the joining itself, being slain by darkspawn, or the taint killing them. That makes what Duncan does close to regicide.

3. Duncan treats this as "the price" for helping the human noble leave. Putting aside just how much Duncan's "help" is needed, his attitude is basically "I've saved your life, now I own it." That's some gratitude for the hospitality the Couslands have shown you Duncan...

4. Duncan chooses one of the most inapproprate times to spring such a life changing decision on the pc by force. The circumstances made it easy, but they are far from ethical...

 

..Which brings me to the ethics of the Grey Wardens. There is this accepted "the wardens do what they must" mentality which justifies whatever action they make as long as it's surmised to help the "greater good;" a dangerous mentality similar to the Architect's and Loghain's. Who sanctioned the wardens to do "whatever is necessary?" And how is doing things like recruiting a pc who has just lost their family "necessary?" It's convenient for the wardens, but far from necessary. But that's what it comes down to: convenience.

 

This mentality has little justification either. The only true "need" for a Grey Warden is the killing blow of an archdemon. That requires one live Grey Warden for every blight to make the killing blow. That's five or even less if Morrigan's ritual was done. More would be needed to ensure one survives to make that blow, but their isn't any actual need for Grey Wardens between blights. All people need is a storage of archdemon blood and easily obtained darkspawn blood for when a blight comes. When that happens any rapist, cutpurse, murderer, feeble old man, etc. can make that final blow. "The best" are not needed. They're convenient.

 

This insight takes away much of the justification to maintain the ritual's secrecy including things like Duncan murdering Jory for being frightened. During a blight many would gladly sacrifice themselves to stop an archdemon. If not for glory, then for the realm, incentives for their family, etc. Real life example: In WWII many Japanese volunteered for suicide missions as kamikaze pilots for causes far less noble and victory far less certain.

 

I suppose much of the irritation with Duncan that occurs even after his death is because Alistair continues to idolize him. It's one of Alistair's few attributes that I strongly dislike. If you don't like Duncan and his Grey Warden mentality you net strong disapproval. Telling Alistair that Duncan "got what he deserved" after learning how he tricked you into a death sentence actually ends a romance. Alistair's obviously blind to Duncan's ethical indifference despite often taking the moral high ground himself.


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#2
ShadowLordXII

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Your viewpoint on the wardens is somewhat valid. Except unlike other portrayals of the "greater good" the grey wardens are actually facing off against a very well and very dangerous threat. Even without a blight, no one knows when the darkspawn could appear next and trying to use the wardens on a need-basis only when a blight is active would just lead to many more lives being lost.

 

As for Duncan in the Cousland origin, he was helping and just not being nice about it.

 

Howe had already won at that point and trying to kill Howe would've been a doomed mission and in Duncan's eyes, a distraction from something far worst. He needed more wardens and letting this young man/woman die for a hopeless cause of revenge wouldn't help anyone.

 

I'm not sugar-coating Duncan's actions here, it's just that he took a cold pragmatic position.


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#3
congokong

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I'm of the view that greater good/ends-justify-the-means mentalities should only be implemented when the danger is immediate, certain, and forced upon you. Otherwise you can easily be a tyrant with a crystal ball justifying your crimes like Loghain. Ex: Lying taken alone is wrong, but if a killer wanted the location of your family to murder them I believe you're justified in lying to protect them. So while the Grey Wardens' cause is just, their methods aren't IMO.

 

As for vengeance on Howe, I'm not suggesting the pc charge at Howe's men right there in Highever. The pc had already planned to escape upon insistence from their parents. But being forced into the Wardens meant the pc would have to leave that life behind. Duncan conscripted the human noble with the mentality of "The blight is the greater threat so too bad for you trying to avenge your family." As you said, it's a cold, pragmatic position; and one that I don't feel is justified based on my OP.


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#4
KaiserShep

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I imagine if my family was just massacred, Duncan would probably have to kill me to get any kind of compliance, because I'd fight him and anyone else who cared to intervene. I don't really dislike Duncan, but I'm not overly fond of him either. At the very least, however, he'd probably be the first to throw his ass into the fire if required, so I can't really knock him too much.


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#5
Guest_Faerunner_*

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I like him. Can't speak for other players.

 

EDIT: From an origin standpoint, my City Elf's old life was pretty much over the moment she killed Vaughan. Her future would include either months of horrific torture and a slow death in the dungeon, or getting the hell out of dodge, which meant leaving her life in the alienage forever. So, if she had to leave, might as well become a badass elite fighter to set a good example for her people.

 

My mage just got caught helping Jowan and would either go to the mage prison with Lily or face execution. Grey Warden seems really good by comparison.

 

Same with my dwarf commoner. Just got caught impersonating a warrior in the Proving, which was pretty much a hanging offense. She fought her way out of Beraht's dungeon just to run into thirty royal guards. Prison and possible torture and execution was in her future. Again, becoming a Grey Warden seemed really swell by comparison.


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#6
sylvanaerie

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I like him well enough.

 

In the case of both dwarf origins, City elf, Dalish elf and the mage, Duncan actually saves the life of the warden (clearly).  It's murkier in the Noble Origin.  I usually take the 'stay with my parents' option till forced either by Bryce telling her to go do her duty or by Duncan invoking the Rite.  Other nobles might make good their escape, that option would exist I suppose.  Duncan doesn't HAVE to save the Cousland, but he takes his recruit anyway.

 

I realize he's got a hard job ahead of him, trying to stop a full on Blight (and he will tell you he knows it is one--in hindsight we learn i'ts because he's so close to his Calling, he can hear the Archdemon) and very few available wardens on hand to kill the creature.  He becomes kind of ruthless in dire circumstances, and understandably so, but he still comes off as a dick in the Human Noble Origin.

 

He puts his money where his mouth is though and doesn't shirk his own duties, being right in the thick of everything himself, so I can't really hate him too much.


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#7
Ryzaki

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Can't stand him.

 

 He's incredibly smarmy in my preferred origins (HN, Mage) and his greater attitude while justified just left me cold. I'm half tempted to pick the DR out of spite except I dislike Morrigan more.



#8
SmilesJA

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I liked him and wished we seen more of him.


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#9
KaiserShep

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Can't stand him.

 

 He's incredibly smarmy in my preferred origins (HN, Mage) and his greater attitude while justified just left me cold. I'm half tempted to pick the DR out of spite except I dislike Morrigan more.

 

Who do you have taking the killing blow?



#10
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Nope. He's a shemlen.


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#11
Ryzaki

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Who do you have taking the killing blow?

 

Loghain for my canon. The warden otherwise (or I *gag* did the DR).



#12
congokong

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In the case of both dwarf origins, City elf, Dalish elf and the mage, Duncan actually saves the life of the warden (clearly).  It's murkier in the Noble Origin.  I usually take the 'stay with my parents' option till forced either by Bryce telling her to go do her duty or by Duncan invoking the Rite.  Other nobles might make good their escape, that option would exist I suppose.  Duncan doesn't HAVE to save the Cousland, but he takes his recruit anyway.

 

I realize he's got a hard job ahead of him, trying to stop a full on Blight (and he will tell you he knows it is one--in hindsight we learn i'ts because he's so close to his Calling, he can hear the Archdemon) and very few available wardens on hand to kill the creature.  He becomes kind of ruthless in dire circumstances, and understandably so, but he still comes off as a dick in the Human Noble Origin.

 

Well, in the mage origin he just takes the pc away to be a Grey Warden without even conscripting them if they betrayed Jowan. The pc cannot even protest it much. It comes off quite poorly.

 

Irving: "Don't we reward loyalty?"

 

Ugh. The "reward" thing...

 

 

In most situations it's true that Duncan seizes on opportunities to recruit capable fighters in bad situations to his advantage. One thing that's true in all origins though is this: help from him comes with a price... Usually a heavy one.

 

Regarding Duncan's task, as said in the OP, the Grey Wardens aren't as vital as he makes them out to be. And like I said, he doesn't need "the best" to become wardens for that killing blow. A werewolf army can take down the archdemon allowing a senile old man who has recently undergone the joining to limp over and stick it with their dagger. lol  An exaggeration but you understand my point, yes?


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#13
sylvanaerie

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But you've seen the physical/mental demands of being a warden.  A senile old man 1) won't survive the joining 2) won't survive the fight past the horde to GET to the Archdemon.  Duncan can't just recruit anyone.  He has to recruit those who might live to actually fight and kill the dragon.

 

Like Barmaid #4 wouldn't have the skills necessary to do the job, so he's not out to recruit them.

 

And Grey Wardens are vital.  Only a warden can kill the archdemon and make it stay dead.

 

And any mage looking for a "reward" for doing the forbidden (even at Irving's bidding) is just asking for tranquility, imprisonment or death.  KC Gregoir isn't the whackadoo KC Meredith was, but he's no warm and fuzzy guy either.

 

Besides, you want to think your PC is an exceptional example of his/her species, and if it were as easy as just making any joe shmoe off the street a Warden, it would be a pretty short game.  Either you're exceptional and you do all these remarkable things, or you're just average and utterly and completely fail.

 

Game over.


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#14
congokong

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Can't stand him.

 

 He's incredibly smarmy in my preferred origins (HN, Mage) and his greater attitude while justified just left me cold. I'm half tempted to pick the DR out of spite except I dislike Morrigan more.

 

It's funny. I have every reason to dislike Morrigan's character even more so than Duncan's yet I like her and romance her when playing a male. I know she's evil and would hate her in real life but in-game she doesn't bother me. I think it's because no one denies what she is while everyone puts Duncan on a pedestal.



#15
congokong

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But you've seen the physical/mental demands of being a warden.  A senile old man 1) won't survive the joining 2) won't survive the fight past the horde to GET to the Archdemon.  Duncan can't just recruit anyone.  He has to recruit those who might live to actually fight and kill the dragon.

 

Like Barmaid #4 wouldn't have the skills necessary to do the job, so he's not out to recruit them.

 

And Grey Wardens are vital.  Only a warden can kill the archdemon and make it stay dead.

 

And any mage looking for a "reward" for doing the forbidden (even at Irving's bidding) is just asking for tranquility, imprisonment or death.  KC Gregoir isn't the whackadoo KC Meredith was, but he's no warm and fuzzy guy either.

 

Besides, you want to think your PC is an exceptional example of his/her species, and if it were as easy as just making any joe shmoe off the street a Warden, it would be a pretty short game.  Either you're exceptional and you do all these remarkable things, or you're just average and utterly and completely fail.

 

Game over.

 

I told you; the senile old man example was an exaggeration. The chances would be better if they had a capable fighter certainly; one who'd be held back until the archdemon was all but dead. The value of acquiring a warden who can actually fight doesn't excuse acquiring such from the path of least resistance. At least I don't think so.

 

About the mage origin, I think the game was just trying to nudge Duncan as the pc's "rescuer" by making Gregoir act like a complete ass. Punishment to the pc could easily be transferred, at least partially, to Irving who admitted orchestrating the whole thing. I really don't think it would go that far but Duncan intervened.



#16
Ryzaki

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It's funny. I have every reason to dislike Morrigan's character even more so than Duncan's yet I like her and romance her when playing a male. I know she's evil and would hate her in real life but in-game she doesn't bother me. I think it's because no one denies what she is while everyone puts Duncan on a pedestal.

 

Yeah. I guess I'm not that bothered since Duncan bites it so early anyway. XD



#17
congokong

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Yeah. I guess I'm not that bothered since Duncan bites it so early anyway. XD

Except Alistair wouldn't stop crying about it. lol

 

My Cousland totally stuck it to Duncan and all the Grey Wardens. Even Alistair said how disgusted Duncan would be when he reached -100 disapproval. My pc turned down reliable dalish allies for werewolves, defiled the Urn of Sacred Ashes, murdered many random people, made Loghain a Warden, executed Alistair, married Anora and became king, etc. He did stop the blight though and considering Duncan's "greater good" attitude Duncan would be a hypocrite to complain.


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#18
Ryzaki

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Except Alistair wouldn't stop crying about it. lol

 

My Cousland totally stuck it to Duncan and all the Grey Wardens. Even Alistair said how disgusted Duncan would be when he reached -100 disapproval. My pc turned down reliable dalish allies for werewolves, defiled the Urn of Sacred Ashes, murdered many random people, made Loghain a Warden, executed Alistair, married Anora and became king, etc. He did stop the blight though and considering Duncan's "greater good" attitude Duncan would be a hypocrite to complain.

 

Ugh yeah I take that 20 approval hit for the he got what he deserved conversation. Alistair's severe rose tinted glasses were annoying as hell.

 

lmao I loved that conversation. Alistair at least acted like he had a spine...for about 2 minutes. XD

 

Yeah my characters can be douchey but I don't have anyone who executed Alistair. Probably because as much as he annoys the hell out of them they have some level of trust there.



#19
gottaloveme

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I was wondering the other day about what would happen if you flat out refused to go with Duncan even if he did conscript you. The thing I find most annoying is that for my warden it isn't so much vengeance on Howe (he will get his) but who is to look after Highever and take responsibility for the Teyrnir if Fergus is already dead. Liked Duncan at first but not so much now.

 

But then - this is a blight, no?



#20
Deebo305

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I've always been indifferent about him, The Calling may change my opinion about him after I done but for now he just that guy that Alistair always cried about and that I didn't care about....at all

#21
Sarcastic Tasha

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I like antiheroes so I was bound to like Duncan.

 

 

As for my Wardens they've all liked him too.

My mage jumped at the chance to leave the circle.

My city elf would have been executed if Duncan hadn't conscripted her and Duncan was one of only a few humans she'd met that treated her with respect.

My noble human wanted to join the wardens, she'd read all the stories and thought a life of adventure would be much better than having to get married. Of course she had something of a rude awakening at Ostagar but there was no turning back then.

 

Maybe next playthrough I should roleplay a more reluctant warden for a change though.



#22
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Duncan in DA:O is a character who will help out anyone so long as it ends up benefiting the Grey Wardens, and will kill anyone if it benefits the Grey Wardens.

 

My PCs had to be ok with that because of how the game was made, but given a choice my canon HN (at least) would have defended Jory when Duncan attacked him.

 

Personally speaking, when we get right down to it I don't really like Duncan as a person as he's portrayed in the game. If he helped the PCs with no strings attached, it'd be a different matter.


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#23
Blazomancer

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I do like him. I agree the way that he recruits the human noble, especially if reluctant, feels quite cold hearted. But then they are 'Grey' wardens, not shining knights. In case of Duncan, there is also a valid argument for the need to recruit as many highly skilled combatants as possible into the order.

It is not exactly true that the Wardens are needed solely for the final blow. A warden combatant has a huge advantage while fighting darkspawn than a regular soldier because of the ability to sense them. This is evident in the accounts of the First Blight where it is mentioned that each warden took on crowds of ten or twenty darkspawn at once. Even so it took the collective effort of the troops of multiple nations along with the wardens to take on the main horde led by the archdemon.

Now keeping the above in mind, think about the situation in Ferelden during the onset of the Fifth Blight. The strength of the Ferelden Grey wardens was not large enough to begin with at that moment, since their exile was lifted only about two decades ago and they were still in a slow rebuilding phase. The plan that the wardens and the royal army came up is to hold the horde in the fortress of Ostagar using the tactical genius of Loghain, till the Orlesian Grey wardens arrived. From what Duncan said in Ostagar, it was quite clear that the number of Grey wardens was not enough for the task at hand, and they were looking up to Teyrn Loghain to make up the difference.

Considering all these, it's not hard to imagine why Duncan might consider picking up any badass warrior/rogue/mage he could get his hands on extremely 'necessary'. Was he wrong to recruit the human noble PC? - may be. Could that recruitment had made any difference in the fight against the blight? - possibly (without meta knowledge). Be it what it may, but it's not reason enough for me personally to dislike him. Not everyone is forced to make the hard decisions.


(“You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.” ―Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais).

#24
Elhanan

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While I dislike him briefly when discovering the terminal nature of the Joining - both short and long term - I also see directly, and hear of his better side via the testimony of others. Yes; I like Duncan.

#25
Krypplingz

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(A lot of rambling and bad spelling. Cover your eyes Boo)

 

I quite like Duncan. He looks pretty, has a soothing voice and some humor. 

I like him in all the origins. He went out to recruit a Grey Warden and he's not coming back until he has done so. You just happen to be the ideal candidate. And the fact that all of the Origins are facing death (or similar fate)  is just a bonus for him. 

Also getting conscripted is hilarious. Duncan doesn't need you to like him, he needs you to fight the Blight.

 

Ramblings about Alistair and Duncan. 

Spoiler

 

A long ramble about the HN origin if you had not been conscripted. Spoilered because it's long and confusing. 

Spoiler