245 réponses à ce sujet

[Orihime]

im another person who loved his character

 

after ostagar i hated loghain with a passion from my first playthrough till now

 

but duncan personality and how he was the one to help you become a grey warden it stuck

 

thats my opinion

[Merle McClure II]

A few thoughts ....

 

 

--- On "preserving" the knowledge of The Joining without keeping the Order around. ---

 

In REAL LIFE important world shattering knowledge has been lost for centuries (Cement ... Plumbing ... ect), and unlike The Joining, said technologies can be preserved or reinvented by anyone, as opposed to requiring Mages. Look back through the Codex and see how long the First Blight lasted before The Joining was discovered in the first place. Being willing to take THAT risk is foolish at best.

 

 

--- Ser Jorey ---

 

Duncan's mistake was recruiting Jorey in the first place, although perhaps he thought that having a family waiting for him might make Jorey fight harder. Per Awakening we get to see that Wardens are allowed to marry and have families, although said families can and are uprooted to wherever the Warden is posted. The "murder" as you call it seems largely in line with the loose "Old West" style of self defense rules that Ferelden appears to follow, he choose to "bare his fangs" instead of making a run for it. Besides, it's no secret that The Joining is dangerous, Duncan tells the PC as much and I'm pretty sure that Alistair does as well ... Jorey at least had an idea of what the risks were and if he HAD let Jorey leave then he'd very likely wind up with no new Grey Wardens at all that night. 

 

 

--- Being a jerk during some of the Origins ---

 

Human Noble:  Not being as sensitive as he could have been while saving the human noble's life? -- Ok, so he can be a jerk at times, although in order to even get that dialog the human noble has to basically ****** all over his/her dying father's wishes and throw a tantum of their own so it's just as readable as "tough love to save someone's life" as being a cold hearted jerk.

 

 

Dalish Elf:  The "cure" he was referring to was The Joining and as I remember that Origin (One of my least favorites.) in order for Duncan to come off as practically cold hearted the PC had to be throwing a tantum and trying to comment suicide over the wishes of his/her Clan.

 

 

City Elf:  If I remember correctly, the only ways that your cousin was in trouble was if they took the bribe, the PC fingered him, or if the PC tried to get away with being silent and letting the entire Alienage take the blame for him/her. That PC isn't really one to point fingers. -- Besides, "conscripting" a criminal and then not making said criminal follow through with becoming a Warden is quite possibility the worse thing any Warden-Commander could do for the Order. 

 

 

Mage: If you did the honorable thing by turning Jowan in then Irving, your trusted Mentor tells you to go, spread your wings and accept your reward. ... On the other hand, if you helped Jowan then Duncan is probably saving you from rightfully being put to death or tranquility for helping a Blood Mage who never underwent the Harrowing escape.

 

 

--- Warden's being "Above the Law" ---

 

I'm not quite sure where this comes from, other then "The Right of Conscription", Wardens seem to me to be held to the exact same laws that every other heavily armed and armored adventurer is in Ferelden. There is a reason that Duncan's "aide" is limited in the City Elf Origin for example.

 

 

--- "What would Duncan Do?" ---

 

Well, if Duncan lived through Ostagar with Loghain's betrayal and everything stayed the same, I don't think that he would have allowed Feledern to burn while running away ... I think the game would have played roughly the same way, with the exception that I'm not sure he would have bothered with the Landsmeet and ignored the perfectly good armies waiting on the other side of the border.

 

 

Now, assuming that Duncan WAS the main character and faced the same decisions I think this is how the game would have went.

 

 

--Lothering-- Resupply and breeze through, probably would have recruited L but left Sten in his cage.

 

--Redcliffe-- Save the Village because he needs Eamon/Teagan's support. Let Isolde kill Connor.

 

--Ashes-- Why defile them and lose access to a "cure-all"? 

 

--Zerivan-- Killed, it isn't really smart to let the assassin live.

 

--Circle-- Save the Mages if possible simply because he Magic is a resource so rare that it's worth the risk. Recruit Wynne at all costs.

 

--Dwarves-- Harrowmont as king simply because Bhelan is an unknown, keep the Anvil.

 

--Dalish-- Probably side with the elves .. although the werewolves would probably tempt him.

 

--Denerim-- If he got involved at all, I can't see him siding with Slavers.

 

--Landsmeet-- Place Alistair on the throne, execute Loghain mostly to keep his new puppet king happy.

 

--Archdemon-- He takes the final blow. DR is rejected without a second thought.

 

--Avernuis-- Not encountered as he doesn't do "side quests". --If he did then he'd probably allow Avernuis to continue his research with restrictions considering that Avernuis would be experimenting on "his Wardens".   

 

--Shale-- Not encountered as he doesn't do "side quests". -- I think he would have left the demon contained even if it cost the little girl's or her father's live though.

[Gambit458]

Duncan wasn't all bad. In some of the Origins, he saved you from a terrible fate. The only thing I didn't like about him was when he killed Jory but eh, whatevs. I find it kind of amusing that someone actually tried to criticize Alistair over being upset about Duncan's loss. Unless you're heartless, I'm pretty sure you get upset when you've lost a loved one. That's a pretty dumb thing to hold against Alistair imo

[Captain Wiseass]

It strikes me that most of the Origins are about second chances, and given Duncan's background, he'd certainly be a believer in those.

[Xetykins]

Hated him with passion specially on the HN origin. But then i found out how shtty the a grey wardens life actually is and why they are needed. I dont think duncan will be that forceful and cold if he did not think its a blight. And considering theres only few wardens in ferelden, he needed to be ruthless.

With jory i hated what he did there too but again who would volunteer to join the wardens if you let him go and he starts broadcasting what he already know.

[DinkyD]

The Jory thing is definitely my WTF? Duncan moment.  If you ask Duncan why, he says something about after he drew his sword he was left no choice. But Jory didn't look very threatening; he did look frightened. I do wonder what the intent was - was there a bit of a disconnect between the writing and the cut scene?

 

If there was no going back then Jory needed to be talked down. But he drew his sword. Playing advocate for Duncan here, I see it as at that point he saw Jory was a panicked man frightened beyond his wits, prepared to fight his way out come what may. He was a lost cause. Rather than risk injury or death to his other recruits and someone who had already survived the joining whilst trying to prevent him from leaving, he puts him down. If Jory hadn't panicked, it might have played out differently. Looking at that scene that way makes the most sense to me. Jory isn't killed because he wants to leave, but because he can't be prevented from doing so safely. Still ruthless of course, but not quite as cold blooded?

[Vazgen]

Regarding Jory, Duncan says that when Jory had drawn his blade he, however, did not leave him much of a choice. I believe Duncan would've tried to reason with Jory and try to convince him to take the Joining. Not sure if he would've killed him if Jory refused again, but I believe he would've given him a chance to see reason.

[evgenija28]

^ "He was pretty much ready to kill the last of the Cousland line"? I think combatting the Blight is more important than lettinsome family maintain the social privilege awarded to them simply for being alive. Getting that extra, rare, elusive, much-needed suitable recruit that can tip the scale between salvation and world-wide destruction, or taking the chance of letting the Blight spread in favor of letting some kid retain the wealth, titles, and lands given to them just for being born into the right family?

Not to mention your mom chose to die of her own accord and your brother is out there on his way to Ostagar, so you aren't really the last. And the entire Human Noble Origin does backflips showing how EVERYONE in Ferelden universally adores the Couslands, so I think it's nce they learn of Howe's treachery they will instantly take your side. The Grey Wardens are camped and riding with the King at Ostagar, for crying out loud.

And before you begin barking, I played the Human Noble through Ostagar and got as emotionally invested as could be. While I can see why people wouldn't be wildly fond of him for invoking the Rite of Constription while your dad is bleeding to death on the floor and your mom chooses to die with him rather than live for you ("badass," huh?), my character also recognized that there were greater things at stake. My character also had no doubt that justice would be served since, again, t he game does contortions to show how universally adored the Couslands are. My character had no doubt that once word got round people would take her side (like when you can tell King Cailan and he sincerely agrees to look into it), just not in the way she wanted ("after the Blight," huh?).

1st bold - I am talking about killing an entire family, the fact that they are a noble family doesn't change things for me. "letting some kid retain the wealth, titles, and lands given to them just for being born into the right family?" - this is not true, I am quite sure that Couslands aren't all about wealth, privelage, lands and titles, and I am definetely sure that the youngest Cousland (since you are talking about your character I'll talk about mine) isn't worried about what will come of his family in terms of social status - it is whether it will continue its legacy, whether it will survive. And it is normal, common thing you inherit something from your parents that you didn't work for, money, house, a car, a horse, a title. It's a pure luck what it will be.

2nd bold - As I said she chose to commit suicide, so you are repeating what I said. Also, in that situation she wasn't in the right state of mind, or she saw the reality of the situation - there is no way out for her. Even if she got out alive, phisically, spiritually she would die right there with her husband - you could see it in her face. It is very sad, very brutal. The fact that Fergus is alive is an unknown fact, for Duncan as well, he could have died for all you know that same day, for all Duncan knew, so that doesn't excuse his actions in any way.

And for the end, "they are universally adored" isn't a fact, it may be among nobles, it may be a lie, it may be a current fluctuating state of mind. Howe succeded in his attempt and it says something - he couldn't have done it all on his own. He took his entire army and stormed Highever castle in the middle of Ferelden. There are other nobles that must've helped him, a part from Loghain. So nothing is so certain.

[evgenija28]

And for the Blight and how it is more important - it is, but that good goal of defeating the Blight must be acquired in a good way, I already said it before. If you are ready to do anything to acquire something, your actions will soon be on the edge of what is right, and morally wrong as time goes by.

[evgenija28]

Regarding Jory, Duncan says that when Jory had drawn his blade he, however, did not leave him much of a choice. I believe Duncan would've tried to reason with Jory and try to convince him to take the Joining. Not sure if he would've killed him if Jory refused again, but I believe he would've given him a chance to see reason.

 

I am quite sure he could've reasoned with Jory, but it takes time, and it isn't certain. So again, fighting for the good Duncan did the bad.

[Merle McClure II]

I tend to agree that Duncan would have given Jory a chance to change his mind, but was prepared to kill him regardless.

[Gambit458]

Regarding Jory, Duncan says that when Jory had drawn his blade he, however, did not leave him much of a choice. I believe Duncan would've tried to reason with Jory and try to convince him to take the Joining. Not sure if he would've killed him if Jory refused again, but I believe he would've given him a chance to see reason.

What gets me is your warden and Alistair just stand there doing nothing as it's happening. You'd figure they let you speak up and try to stop one of them. For all Jory knew, he may have passed the Joining if he just tried

[Merle McClure II]

Considering the results of all of the Joinings we hear/see I personally think that the death rate is actually fairly low.

[dragonflight288]

Considering the results of all of the Joinings we hear/see I personally think that the death rate is actually fairly low.

 

Probably because the recruiting is so selective as well. 

[Gambit458]

Considering the results of all of the Joinings we hear/see I personally think that the death rate is actually fairly low.

Well you see it in Awakening. All your party members, except that girl at the start, pass the joining. So that was one death out of Nathaniel, the dwarf chick, Velvana, Oghren, and Anders who drank the blood. Pretty good ratio

[Merle McClure II]

Also as I recall there was only one death in Alistair's class as well ... now granted, I don't think we get to know how many people underwent The Joining with Alistair but still, it says a lot.

 

 

Also Hawke's sibling survives while dying from the Blight sickness as well.

[DDJ]

I have never liked Duncan or Alistair for that matter.  Duncan makes the self righteous statement that sacrifice is demanded for the greater good.  Sacrifice is done willingly, and it is abundantly clear that Jory, unwilling to make the sacrifice, is murdered to shut him up.  While your own character has no choice - ;you don't have a game without a Warden - he or she is confronted with a drink or be murdered alternative.

 

The other point is this.  Playing as an elf from the alienage I am to be hung for saving Shianni from rape and murder, and Duncan makes it quite clear that if I refuse to be a Warden he will let me hang.

 

Like him?  I think not.

[Solbranthius]

I actually despised him and celebrated when he died at Ostagar. I figured out that he wasn't as honourable as he liked to pretend he was early on though - especially when Jory ended up being killed and I took the time to ponder the fate of those who were forcibly conscripted and dragged away from their families.

[Dale]

Duncan has a sense of bearing, maturity, and experience -- and with his calm demeanor, loyalty to the king, and past combat history – this “encourages” respect.   As mentioned by several folks on this thread – his murder of Jory was (in my view) just plain CULTIC – and nothing “honorable” about it.   Let’s create MORE widows and orphans, shall we?    The darkspawn aren’t enough?

 

There is enough death and killing going on – we don’t need to be killing each other with Howe and Loghain doing plenty of THAT -- and claiming to be “on our side” --- ALSO.  

 

Consider the final outcome:  whether one dies drinking the potion or opts out – the results are the same for the Grey Wardens (they lose a candidate).   They don’t need their reputation stained by a cultic ritual which looks like the same as the blood mages.   They should be above such “I will kill you” initiation rituals.   Jory was not selfishly thinking of himself -- but his wife and child.

 

Honor is earned.   Fear does not equal honor…regardless how “noble” the reasons.   Historically, fear ALWAYS eventually breeds contempt.   Anyone with experience in the military knows that HONOR is a two-way-street and under combat situations, may determine the outcome.   Alternatively, some cultures I’ve seen in my world travels can’t distinguish between earned-honor and their stinking-pride.   For example "my honor is insulted!" -- no it isn't: his pride is insulted.  Real honor is not so volatile.   As for me, Duncan fell off his pedestal with that barbaric and totally unnecessary act.  

[Remmirath]

I like Duncan as a character. I find him to be an interesting one, although certainly morally ambiguous. Various of my characters have respected him, liked him, hated him, or been completely indifferent. There are many different ways to read each origin's initial interactions with Duncan.

I should also point out that I dislike Ser Jory. He comes off as somewhat cowardly, foolish, and unwilling to follow through with his actions. I certainly don't think that he deserves to die for that; I'd say that it should be fairly clear that he doesn't. But I find it difficult to respect him and consider him honourable.

As far as the interactions with different origin stories goes, I think that the human noble works out the worst.

City Elf: Provided aid and weapons, and saved the character from a near-certain execution. Certainly a win for the elven PC, and both actions likely to gain a loyal Grey Warden recruit. This one seems fairly reasonable from both ends.

Dalish Elf: The elf already has the taint, and Duncan offers the only thing sort of like a cure that's out there. The Dalish PC is probably not happy with this, but it's an easy sell, and is again likely to gain a reasonably loyal recruit. Also seems reasonable to me.

Dwarf Noble: Picks the dwarf up from exile, is helpful, and provides pretty much the only possible out to come back and get revenge. Again, can be reasonable. More, dwarves tend to know how to fight Darkspawn, so from a recruiting perspective this one makes a good deal of sense.

Mage: This one is a bit iffier, but he does save the PC from being imprisoned (and potentially worse). He gains a mage, the mage PC gains freedom. Again, more or less reasonable.

Human Noble: It does come off as taking advantage, and really, this one I would say is the most dubious both in terms of the PC having any reason to be at all loyal to Duncan/the Wardens, and in terms of morality.

I still haven't got around to playing a Dwarf Commoner through, so I'm not sure how that one works out.
 

Consider the final outcome:  whether one dies drinking the potion or opts out – the results are the same for the Grey Wardens (they lose a candidate).   They don’t need their reputation stained by a cultic ritual which looks like the same as the blood mages.   They should be above such “I will kill you” initiation rituals.   Jory was not selfishly thinking of himself -- but his wife and child.

I see what you're saying here, and I see your point -- but if they let people opt out at that point, that's exactly when knowledge of the Joining will begin spreading. If they're to keep it a carefully guarded secret, they must kill anyone who doesn't undergo it, or take the risk of attempting to swear those with no tie to the order to silence.

Now, it's certainly arguable that they could just be out in the open with the entire ritual, but considering the general outlook on magic (blood magic in particular) in Ferelden, and what got them exiled earlier, it can be seen why they don't. It's not very moral, but it is pragmatic. As you said, they lose a candidate either way, and if the failed candidate is killed then there's no chance that they will spill the beans about the ritual and perhaps bring about another period of exile (or an open attempt at extermination).

We also don't know that this is something that's ordinarily done. Practices between Blights are almost certainly different, for example. We don't know if Duncan would've done the same thing, had they not been on the verge of a battle that they were already concerned about the outcome of, and in a camp full of people who would probably not have been too thrilled to hear about the ritual, had Ser Jory said anything.

Duncan certainly acts based upon what appears to be expedient at the time, I would say. His goals seem to be to end the Blight and preserve the Grey Wardens, which are both necessary things (at least, how he would see it). I wouldn't classify him as a necessarily honourable man, nor necessarily one who should be respected -- although also not the opposite of either. I would say that he has earned more respect than he has honour.

[Xetykins]

I also applaud Duncan for not just dragging the next shmuck that crosses his path and pour that stuff down their throats. He must have a check list of who to recruit. If im that desperate i'd probably drag the whole lot of them includinh the tranquils heh.