245 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

I like him. I don't have any problems with him.

[sylvanaerie]

I told you; the senile old man example was an exaggeration. The chances would be better if they had a capable fighter certainly; one who'd be held back until the archdemon was all but dead. The value of acquiring a warden who can actually fight doesn't excuse acquiring such from the path of least resistance. At least I don't think so.

 

About the mage origin, I think the game was just trying to nudge Duncan as the pc's "rescuer" by making Gregoir act like a complete ass. Punishment to the pc could easily be transferred, at least partially, to Irving who admitted orchestrating the whole thing. I really don't think it would go that far but Duncan intervened.

 

If you want to use an easily dismissable exaggeration, then don't complain when someone uses it.  I am aware you were just trying to make a point, if you noticed I also used an example as well (an unskilled person trying to be a warrior in Barmaid #4). I get the gist of what you were saying, but I disagree to some extent.

 

Certainly Duncan comes across as a douche in the HN story (and to some extent the Dalish as well since he seems initially to be dangling a cure for the PC just out of his/her reach).  But I'm saying I understand his douchery (to some extent) and can excuse it considering the circumstances Ferelden and the Order is in.

 

In the case of the mage origin, Gregoir is as Gregoir is.  He's far less douchy than Meredith and other representations I've seen of templars in the games, so even he isn't a complete ass.  If you free the mages, he takes your word (even if you're a mage yourself) that the Circle has been liberated.  If you want to say his douchery is played up in the origin, you may do so, but I believe the severity of what the PC has done in terms of Thedas law (she does help a dangerous mage escape the circle--and just look at all the damage Jowan does left to his own devices and poor judgment) has led to a rescue situation, regardless of whether the PC has helped Irving or not.  Gregoir has only the word of Irving, who is hardly unbiased where the Amell/Surana is concerned.

 

I think to some extent since it's required for the player to become a grey warden, this plot device (conscript if necessary) is in place.  In some, you are even blessed with a genuine reason to want to join.

 

He does some pretty douchy stuff that hardly endears him to me, but I can't really hate him since I understand where he's coming from.

 

And I have to wonder (since you seem to feel Alistair deserved to die just for liking him in your King Cousland example) how much of your antipathy toward him stems from Alistair's affection for the former Warden Commander?

 

And in your example, I don't think Duncan would have approved of killing Alistair (since that removes a potential resource), but since you still got the job done, he wouldn't have had many objections to your methods.  Doubtless he took your ruthlessness into account when recruiting you, and weighed it as necessary to get the job done.

[luna1124]

 

My PCs had to be ok with that because of how the game was made, but given a choice my canon HN (at least) would have defended Jory when Duncan attacked him.

 

 

I know, this is always something that bothered me. Jory did draw first though...

[wiccame]

Generally I like him. He takes his role seriously but like Riordan says he has a soft spot for new recruits and recognises the sacrifices they have to make and has empathy for that.

Saying that, however I do not like him in certain origins. Especially the CE. Sure go get married have your little celebration but as soon as that's over I plan to take you away and you'll never see your newly wedded spouse again. Couldn't he have just recruited them before?

Human noble, I know he has far more dire concerns than a family being slaughtered for political gain but he comes across as being a little cold hearted. I know your family is dying but move it!

[Dabrikishaw]

I like Duncan, haven't felt any reason to not like him.

[Mike3207]

I think you have to respect him.

Like him-no. Some of that comes from Alistair's hero-worship and some comes from his general behavior during the origins.Either way, he's not someone I could ever like.

[Jaison1986]

I don't like him. He is no better then Loghain by the end of the day. At least Loghain is held accountable for his misdeeds. Duncan never is. In fact, the game desperately tries to glorify his memory. While I just thought he was an douche and good riddance. In fact, how I feel is ratter pointless since he is dead and never coming back. My only resentment is to have Alistair sugar coating everything he did.

[congokong]

 

In the case of the mage origin, Gregoir is as Gregoir is.  He's far less douchy than Meredith and other representations I've seen of templars in the games, so even he isn't a complete ass.  If you free the mages, he takes your word (even if you're a mage yourself) that the Circle has been liberated.  If you want to say his douchery is played up in the origin, you may do so, but I believe the severity of what the PC has done in terms of Thedas law (she does help a dangerous mage escape the circle--and just look at all the damage Jowan does left to his own devices and poor judgment) has led to a rescue situation, regardless of whether the PC has helped Irving or not.  Gregoir has only the word of Irving, who is hardly unbiased where the Amell/Surana is concerned.

 

I think to some extent since it's required for the player to become a grey warden, this plot device (conscript if necessary) is in place.  In some, you are even blessed with a genuine reason to want to join.

 

He does some pretty douchy stuff that hardly endears him to me, but I can't really hate him since I understand where he's coming from.

 

And I have to wonder (since you seem to feel Alistair deserved to die just for liking him in your King Cousland example) how much of your antipathy toward him stems from Alistair's affection for the former Warden Commander?

 

And in your example, I don't think Duncan would have approved of killing Alistair (since that removes a potential resource), but since you still got the job done, he wouldn't have had many objections to your methods.  Doubtless he took your ruthlessness into account when recruiting you, and weighed it as necessary to get the job done.

 

Besides Irving's word which is pretty self-incriminating there also is the signature for the rod of fire used to break Jowan out.

 

Personally I took no joy in killing Alistair. It felt like killing a puppy. My Cousland though never got along with him and wanted no loose-ends for his claim to the throne. I felt dirty afterwards. What's disturbing is that I've encountered people on the internet who argue sparing Loghain and killing Alistair is the right thing to do, but people will argue anything.

 

Duncan never saw my pc's ruthless side in the origin. Duncan supposedly only knew that he was a good sword.

[congokong]

I know, this is always something that bothered me. Jory did draw first though...

...While backing himself into a corner the way a cornered fox would show their teeth. Duncan drew his own sword and approached to engage in combat; making him the aggressor. At this point Jory rightfully struck first as it became clear Duncan was intent on killing him.

[Chashan]

What "kills" Mr Duncan for me is him murdering Jory, a father to be.

 

That was my very first impression I took away there, and it simply stuck. Add to that his general behaviour during the prologues in general if the PC isn't exactly fine with being Conscripted, as was also brought up, and I got to say I enjoy him being axed on screen.

[LostInReverie19]

Duncan be a real cold-hearted bastard, and it is very annoying how Alistair just flat out refuses to admit even the possibility that Duncan is anything less than a saint. However, there is still something that is appealing to me about Duncan. Even after all of his dick moves, I have to respect the guy. He always did what he thought was necessary to save the most lives, even if he did so by less than scrupulous means. 

[theskymoves]

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

[congokong]

Duncan be a real cold-hearted bastard, and it is very annoying how Alistair just flat out refuses to admit even the possibility that Duncan is anything less than a saint. However, there is still something that is appealing to me about Duncan. Even after all of his dick moves, I have to respect the guy. He always did what he thought was necessary to save the most lives, even if he did so by less than scrupulous means. 

 

Duncan's mentality reminds me of Loghain. It's a dangerous and scary attitude. Alistair's admiration of Duncan is rather pathetic. Alistair just clung to the first person who came along that cared what he wanted. Ironically, I don't think Duncan cared either. He just saw an opportunity as he did with the pc. Both are expendable resources. Alistair proceeds to look to him as a surrogate father yet from their dialogue exchangesI saw nothing even hinting at affection from Duncan.

 

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

 

I don't like or approve either of them. In-game I'm less annoyed by Loghain largely because most consider him a treacherous bastard. You also get to kill him yourself. Duncan on the other hand gets his boots licked by most who know him.

[Sir George Parr]

I liked him and wished we seen more of him.

As Duncan is the player characters mentor, he is the only character to out rank the player character in the whole story. So his death is a necessity, to allow the player character to take centre stage. 

So you see just enough of him.

[ShadowLordXII]

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

 

Difference being that Duncan's attitude is commended and celebrated while Loghain's is not.

 

Likely because the game does more to justify Duncan whether you like what he does or not while Loghain is pretty much set up to get his head chopped off.

[theskymoves]

Difference being that Duncan's attitude is commended and celebrated while Loghain's is not.

 

Likely because the game does more to justify Duncan whether you like what he does or not while Loghain is pretty much set up to get his head chopped off.

 

Probably because what Duncan does may not be pleasant, but it isn't underhanded or illegal. Thedas gave him (and the other Grey Wardens) the right to do what he does, by law, and his actions are not selfish; he's just doing his job. There's no law authorising or condoning what Loghain does. And he's not acting for the greater good. He's acting for HIS own good, and possibly, that of his daughter. 

 

Topsy-turvy at it's best. (Or worst.)

[TEWR]

I like him and respect him, but at the same time I'm also cognizant of his failings as a commander and criticize him for it.

 

No different then how I like and respect Loghain but am also cognizant of his failings as a politician and criticize him for it.

[gottaloveme]

I think if he hadn't died and my pc had the time - Duncan would become more human. And yes, he does have to be commandery to keep everyone in line. That said he does have moments of levity.

 

As for Jory - sadly he knew too much about the grey wardens and (seeming to be not the most circumspect man) couldn't be allowed to take what he knew with him. He was (unfortunately) in it for the glory and that was one very hard lesson to learn that being a grey warden is not glorious. I don't know if Duncan actually let him down or more like the secretive nature of the order.

 

Even Anders and Hawke sib refuse to say too much about being a grey warden.

[Chashan]

Probably because what Duncan does may not be pleasant, but it isn't underhanded or illegal. Thedas gave him (and the other Grey Wardens) the right to do what he does, by law, and his actions are not selfish; he's just doing his job. [...]

 

Then he is not exactly doing a great job of it, is he. And the "underhanded"-bit is very, very arguable with some Origins, let's not forget that (City Elf in particular).

 

I've seen it noted that he, as someone tasked with recruiting, should be capable of evaluating individual Conscripts' disposition. The PC themselves don't need to dig too deep there when it comes to Jory to find out he may not be the most fitting candidate.

 

It was also noted that maybe Jory, being the weakest link, should have taken first turn with the chalice during the Joining. As death is a matter of sheer dumb luck there, he pulls through, great, probably incapacitated enough to do nothing drastic going by what the PC go through. He does not, it would still serve a viable lesson.

 

I think if he hadn't died and my pc had the time - Duncan would become more human. And yes, he does have to be commandery to keep everyone in line. That said he does have moments of levity.

 

As for Jory - sadly he knew too much about the grey wardens and (seeming to be not the most circumspect man) couldn't be allowed to take what he knew with him. He was (unfortunately) in it for the glory and that was one very hard lesson to learn that being a grey warden is not glorious. I don't know if Duncan actually let him down or more like the secretive nature of the order.

 

Even Anders and Hawke sib refuse to say too much about being a grey warden.

 

Given how little it matters later on in the game that the fatal portion of the process appears to be known outside of the Wardens - namely Anora -, I don't really think this adds up.

 

Also funny that despite this 'stair entertains his fuzzy warm notions of Wardendom...

[Zjarcal]

Yeah, agreed with the OP.

 

I always felt mostly neutral towards him, but after actually choosing to refuse to join the wardens in my last HN run, yeah, he really lost me there.

 

Of course the really annoying thing there is because the game must go on, you can't actually put up any real resistance to him conscripting you; honestly I wouldn't have minded an option to fight him there and then get a game over screen.

 

But either way, while I may not flat out hate him, I definitely shed no tears over his death. Alistair's annoyance at you not idolizing him is of little concern to me, screw you Alistair.

 

Oh and yeah, **** the wardens.

 

EDIT: Also agreed with what other posters mentioned about Ser Jory.

[congokong]

@Faerunner

 

Achieving vengeance on Howe as a Warden justifying Duncan's tactics involves meta-gaming. Circumstance brought the Warden to Howe's doorstep; not Duncan's intention. His intention was anything but satisfying Cousland vengeance.

 

Regarding some of the other potential pc's ending up dead, I consider it a retcon really to remove those characters. If you're a Cousland and not Marethari for example, Marethari is possibly not the same potential hero he/she would be if the dalish origin was chosen. Also, it's like an alternate universe where one origin is chosen over another. Duncan is in one place and not another so everything in that world changes.

[FiveThreeTen]

I'm fairly neutral towards Duncan. He comes across as a man who tries to do his best despite not having much manpower at his disposal.

My guess is, if Duncan didn't come along and drag you away from the castle, you would have either wound up killed with your family, or wound up on the run like your brother; a lone wandering pariah kept out of sight and out of mind from the public conscious until after Howe was already killed by someone else.

I always imagined the HN didn't make it if s/he is not the PC.

[theskymoves]

@Faerunner

 

Achieving vengeance on Howe as a Warden justifying Duncan's tactics involves meta-gaming. Circumstance brought the Warden to Howe's doorstep; not Duncan's intention. His intention was anything but satisfying Cousland vengeance.

 

Regarding some of the other potential pc's ending up dead, I consider it a retcon really to remove those characters. If you're a Cousland and not Marethari for example, Marethari is possibly not the same potential hero he/she would be if the dalish origin was chosen. Also, it's like an alternate universe where one origin is chosen over another. Duncan is in one place and not another so everything in that world changes.

 

Marethari??? Do you mean 'Mahariel', or are you really talking about the Sabrae Keeper? *confused face*