245 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Marethari??? Do you mean 'Mahariel', or are you really talking about the Sabrae Keeper? *confused face*

 

He means Mahariel.

 

Regarding the other PCs, Bioware didn't even really attempt to think that through. The events of the DC origin happen before the events of the DN origin. Duncan is written as going there to 1) attend a formal ceremony where the Wardens are honored guests, 2) look for recruits, and most importantly 3) ascertain proof he can take before the King and Loghain of the Blight's veracity (which is silly when you've got an anything goes mentality where lying that you saw the Archdemon in the DR or telling the King and Loghain why you're needed, particularly when you did that for Cailan's predecessor, but c'est la vie).

 

If he gets the DC, he completely skips out on the ceremony, saying you have to leave immediately. That's politically asinine and serves no other purpose beyond Bioware wanting us to be the "sole hero Warden".

 

But he's also dumb here as he doesn't petition the Dwarves for aid. Whether they'd accept or refuse is irrelevant, he doesn't even try. Nor does he ask if he can see a copy of the treaty they have.

 

Duncan doesn't petition a lot of people for aid, really. The Dalish Elves (they'd refuse, but again, he doesn't try) or the Dwarves. The only effort he makes is to get the Mages on his side, but from what I recall all he did was personally grouse about the situation to us (doesn't make it his fault, but complaining to us doesn't do much) and stayed quiet when Irving and Gregoir were going at it.

 

Duncan's so focused on his Order's precarious situation that he doesn't... take initiative. Especially in regards to the people who... hold the Wardens in high regard.

 

But then, Bioware didn't really write him consistently. They just sort of wanted someone to fill the Mentor Occupational Hazard.

[ShadowLordXII]

He means Mahariel.

 

Regarding the other PCs, Bioware didn't even really attempt to think that through. The events of the DC origin happen before the events of the DN origin. Duncan is written as going there to 1) attend a formal ceremony where the Wardens are honored guests, 2) look for recruits, and most importantly 3) ascertain proof he can take before the King and Loghain of the Blight's veracity (which is silly when you've got an anything goes mentality where lying that you saw the Archdemon in the DR or telling the King and Loghain why you're needed, particularly when you did that for Cailan's predecessor, but c'est la vie).

 

If he gets the DC, he completely skips out on the ceremony, saying you have to leave immediately. That's politically asinine and serves no other purpose beyond Bioware wanting us to be the "sole hero Warden".

 

But he's also dumb here as he doesn't petition the Dwarves for aid. Whether they'd accept or refuse is irrelevant, he doesn't even try. Nor does he ask if he can see a copy of the treaty they have.

 

Duncan doesn't petition a lot of people for aid, really. The Dalish Elves (they'd refuse, but again, he doesn't try) or the Dwarves. The only effort he makes is to get the Mages on his side, but from what I recall all he did was personally grouse about the situation to us (doesn't make it his fault, but complaining to us doesn't do much) and stayed quiet when Irving and Gregoir were going at it.

 

Duncan's so focused on his Order's precarious situation that he doesn't... take initiative. Especially in regards to the people who... hold the Wardens in high regard.

 

But then, Bioware didn't really write him consistently. They just sort of wanted someone to fill the Mentor Occupational Hazard.

 

I've also noted Duncan's lack of "acting" as a grey warden commander. Like why he defers to the judgement of Cailan and Loghain rather than trying to speak to them on even-footing. Or why he didn't have any wardens stay in other locations such as Denerem in the event that things in Ostagar went south instead of bringing every warden just because the king said to.

 

Granted, he was hindered because he didn't have the Grey Warden treaties (which everyone seems to respect even if there's a hoop to jump over before they'll fulfill their obligations), but that also raises the question of why he waited till now to get them. He's been back in Ferelden for 20 years and only now does he think of getting the treaties in case the wardens need them.

 

However, he probably didn't want to antagonize Ferelden's leaders seeing as that the Grey Wardens were only recently allowed to return. He could've been more bold and assertive, but his caution is not without reason.

[Lhawke]

I do not like Duncan all that much. The main reason being his servile attitude to the nobility.  The excuse our numbers are too few, its been years since they have been back, what has he been doing all this time.

He should have insisted the king stay out of the fighting as he was not protected by the taint. "yes your majesty", I wanted to knock some sense into him at this stage.

 

I also wonder what Alistairs reaction would have been if he were with Duncan in the city elf origin. I doubt he would have stood by quietly while a local lord kidnapped a group of women.

Duncan was the reason for the double ceremony.   I remember reading in a post quite a while ago "lock up your children, here comes Duncan"

 

Jory did draw his sword but he backed away. I do not believe he would have attacked Duncan. Also what was Duncan thinking, trying to recruit someone who had a wife and a child on the way. The wardens are supposed to leave their old lives behind, he should have known it was a bad idea.

Personally I would have liked to have seen him get disarmed, three against one after all. Then have the stuff poured down his throat "there that wasn't so bad was it?"

[TEWR]

I've also noted Duncan's lack of "acting" as a grey warden commander. Like why he defers to the judgement of Cailan and Loghain rather than trying to speak to them on even-footing. Or why he didn't have any wardens stay in other locations such as Denerem in the event that things in Ostagar went south instead of bringing every warden just because the king said to.

 

Granted, he was hindered because he didn't have the Grey Warden treaties (which everyone seems to respect even if there's a hoop to jump over before they'll fulfill their obligations), but that also raises the question of why he waited till now to get them. He's been back in Ferelden for 20 years and only now does he think of getting the treaties in case the wardens need them.

 

However, he probably didn't want to antagonize Ferelden's leaders seeing as that the Grey Wardens were only recently allowed to return. He could've been more bold and assertive, but his caution is not without reason.

 

I would've done that as well, or if I had brought them all to Ostagar kept some out of the vanguard and perhaps with Loghain in other strategic locations should the need arise to flee. But then, were I Duncan, Loghain wouldn't be so in the dark about why we're necessary.

 

I'm unsure of why he put it off as long as he did myself, to be honest. The Wardens were exploring the Korcari Wilds in 9:13 Dragon and took down a heavily wounded Ogre in the process. Granted the Wilds are a large expanse but I'm sure there were records kept by the other Wardens about the fortress. What's more, Levi Dryden was at the ceremony that formally allowed the Wardens back into Ferelden and a few years prior to the events of the game Levi went to Duncan and asked him for help.

 

Yet Duncan "never got the chance". Really, he just put off going there, despite the importance it held? Although Levi says that Darkspawn surfaced in southern Ferelden and he was busy recruiting members and meeting with the king, so I can grant some leeway since the Dwarves acknowledge that the Blight began before the surface lands named it such (it's in A Shaper's Life). Still though.... Duncan didn't need to try and do everything himself. He could've handed tasks to his subordinates.

 

It's clear Bioware writing of DAO is very slipshoddy. Not that this is the first time I've noticed it. It just becomes more apparent with each passing day.

 

Even without the treaties, if he has knowledge of them he could ask to see Orzammar's copy. IIRC, it's kept in the Dwarven Shaperate and the Shaperate is open to all respected bodies to look through. He should've been more bold and assertive (though not so much as to rustle any jimmies). It's... actually really hard to antagonize Cailan. You can call him all manner of things to his face and he just shrugs it off.

 

So were I Duncan, I would've called him out on his bullshit attitude.

[congokong]

Duh, he's got more important things to worry about.

 

I actually played the Human Noble Origin all the way to the Tower of Ishal, and even after that I still firmly believe it's pretty clear you would have been killed or at best driven off had he not stepped in. My point still stands that while he doesn't necessarily help you, he still gives you the best shot in those circumstances. Without him? You're dead. With him, you might not get to pursue your own agenda in the way you want, but he doesn't prevent you from telling the authorities who could bring Howe to justice (like King Cailan), or keeping your hope of making Howe pay on the back-burner. While playing, I got the impression that Duncan's attitude was: "The Blight comes first. We desperately need new recruits and you are a potential recruit. You can seek justice for your family later, just not at the expense of helping to stop the Blight." 

 

You have a better shot with him than otherwise.

 

Well, I played the human noble origin through the entire game and the only impression I got was that Duncan was a douchebag; not someone who saved the pc's life. I'd want to gut anyone who got between me and my dying family and said, "No no. Forget your vengeance. The blight is more important. I'm conscripting you and now you're old life is over. If you don't like it too bad." And Duncan's mentality was that once you're Grey Warden you put your old life behind you. That means you're never supposed to go seeking justice for your family. Wardens are meant to be neutral.

 

 

 

.... What are you saying? I literally do not understand the point you are trying to make.

 

Sigh. It's the butterfly effect. If Duncan is at the Circle of Magi instead of in Highever, then everything changes. Bioware made it so that wherever Duncan is that pc survives, but I don't think Duncan is necessarily the reason for them all surviving; such as the Cousland origin or magi.

 

Marethari??? Do you mean 'Mahariel', or are you really talking about the Sabrae Keeper? *confused face*

I meant Mahariel.

[gottaloveme]

My guess is, if Duncan didn't come along and drag you away from the castle, you would have either wound up killed with your family, or wound up on the run like your brother; a lone wandering pariah kept out of sight and out of mind from the public conscious until after Howe was already killed by someone else.

@Faerunner

 

I such was the case I would find Fergus and he and I would become a little band of guerrilla fighters robbing from the rich to give to the poor (?) Higheverans. We would draw people to our cause. Alistair would defeat the archdemon, fall in love with the head guerrilla and marry her.
 

[TEWR]

Honestly it really does bug me how chatty the Wardens were to Maric about their entire order (Duncan among them) yet they don't think it's at all necessary to repeat this with Cailan and Loghain.

 

I can understand keeping people like Jory from getting out with that information because the last thing you need is the mass public knowing about you and, if worse came to worst, the Chantry. But heads of state and important political figures/generals like Cailan and Loghain? They need to know. And if you've done it in the past and it didn't damn your Order, why would you think it suddenly would for the guy who's fawning all over you and can barely keep his drool from falling on your sleeve?

[gottaloveme]

Jory opted for becoming a grey warden but didn't want to pay the price. The price, for a man with a child coming, was too high and he opted out.

 

In a previous post it was said that Duncan was responsible for the double wedding. How is that?

[Lavaeolus]

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

 

Going by the rest of this thread, you seem to have gotten those names backwards.

 

If this were a Loghain thread, a bunch of people would've gloated "I slaughtered him like the pig he was >: D" by now. A great many others would be going "Oo, where's the popcorn?"

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

 

Eh. I don't really like Loghain either, but he's written into DA:O as a tragic fallen hero. It's a very popular trope.

[LeeAmnesia]

"The ends justify the means" actions should not only be implemented in situations of an immediate nature. For example, if sacrificing 1000 fereldens could guarantee the destruction of all of the old god souls, (thus killing all archdemons, active or otherwise) then it should be done. Even if the archdemon isn't active, 1000 lives now could save a much larger amount later. This is obviously a hypothetical situation, but I'm sure you can all see my point. The mentality that people like the author of this post share is an archaic one, and the world could stand to benefit from more Duncan's, Architects, and Loghains.

[LeeAmnesia]

...While backing himself into a corner the way a cornered fox would show their teeth. Duncan drew his own sword and approached to engage in combat; making him the aggressor. At this point Jory rightfully struck first as it became clear Duncan was intent on killing him.

To be fair if word had gotten out about the joining, a lot less grey wardens would be running around killing darkspawn. Duncan was in the right.

[Gallimatia]

I like him. Can't speak for other players.

 

EDIT: From an origin standpoint, my City Elf's old life was pretty much over the moment she killed Vaughan. Her future would include either months of horrific torture and a slow death in the dungeon, or getting the hell out of dodge, which meant leaving her life in the alienage forever. So, if she had to leave, might as well become a badass elite fighter to set a good example for her people.

 

Soris was also bound for torture and Duncan was in a position to save him with a flick of his wrist but chose not to even when prompted. He can try to justify himself by claming Soris is not fit to be a Warden but even if you accept that shaky premise Duncan could still conscribe him and let him "desert" when they were out of town.

[Jaison1986]

Soris was also bound for torture and Duncan was in a position to save him with a flick of his wrist but chose not to even when prompted. He can try to justify himself by claming Soris is not fit to be a Warden but even if you accept that shaky premise Duncan could still conscribe him and let him "desert" when they were out of town.

 

That's true. I would have done that in Duncan's place. This is another example of how he is more opportunistic then good natured. An good warden wouldn't think twice before going on an all out  assault against the slavers in the Alienage, while Duncan in an similar situation (CE wedding) barely bothers to help.

[congokong]

To be fair if word had gotten out about the joining, a lot less grey wardens would be running around killing darkspawn. Duncan was in the right.

That's based on the premise that Grey Wardens are vital enough that they must maximize recruitment through extremely unethical means including murder. As I said in my OP, I believe that premise is false and therefore doesn't excuse Duncan's ends-justify-the-means justification for murdering Jory. And as a previous poster said, as a recruiter Duncan had a responsibility to choose people most fitting to be wardens. The fact that Jory was married with a child coming and clearly saw joining the Wardens as temporary until the blight was defeated when pressed about abandoning his wife shows how poorly Duncan's recruitment skills were.

[congokong]

"The ends justify the means" actions should not only be implemented in situations of an immediate nature. For example, if sacrificing 1000 fereldens could guarantee the destruction of all of the old god souls, (thus killing all archdemons, active or otherwise) then it should be done. Even if the archdemon isn't active, 1000 lives now could save a much larger amount later. This is obviously a hypothetical situation, but I'm sure you can all see my point. The mentality that people like the author of this post share is an archaic one, and the world could stand to benefit from more Duncan's, Architects, and Loghains.

What?! Are you trolling? You seriously think the world can benefit from more Architects and Loghains even considering how it turned out?! The Architect caused a blight! Loghain started a civil war and made battling the darkspawn monstrously more difficult. And I don't need to cover Duncan again.

 

Your hypothetical situation doesn't go against my premise. The outcomes are immediate and certain (you know the cost and if it will truly work) in your scenario. That number of sacrifices would ensure the death of the old gods; thus ending the blights. True, you don't know exactly how many would die in the next blight but it's an extremely safe estimate. However, such a plan shouldn't be anyone's first option and should be avoided if possible. And it wouldn't be the first option. The alternative of fighting them traditionally has been implemented and cost more than 1,000 lives each blight.

 

The problem with people like Loghain is that they try to compare numbers "in the long run" as if they have a crystal ball. His mentality was "if I abandon all these people at Ostagar, lie about it, enslave elves, torture nobles, hire assassins, murder at parley, burn people's lands, etc. then in the long run it will save lives because Cailan's plan was weak, the Wardens aren't needed, Orlais is the enemy, there is no blight, etc." Not only could he not truly know if he'd come out ahead or even succeed in crowning himself by committing evil acts in the long run, but his premises were false.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It always amuses me that everyone loathes Duncan because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk, but they adore Loghain, because he's a coldhearted, ends-justify-the-means, mono-focused jerk.

 

Big difference here is that Loghain's character is mostly left open to the player's interpretation (though it's portrayed slightly negatively), whereas Duncan gets glorified, heroic portrayal that's never allowed to be disputed.

 

I plead guilty to adoring Loghain. I actually like Duncan well enough, but what I hate is the hero-worship given to the Grey Wardens in DA:O/A (and Duncan's character is one part of that problem). That's not what they are, nor should they be. Grey Wardens are an evil, of the necessary variety. And because of his precious Duncan, Alistair's hissy fit about conscipting Loghain rings false, because Duncan was a thief and murderer who was conscripted to the GWs not as an honor but punishment.

[congokong]

Big difference here is that Loghain's character is mostly left open to the player's interpretation (though it's portrayed slightly negatively), whereas Duncan gets glorified, heroic portrayal that's never allowed to be disputed.

 

I plead guilty to adoring Loghain. I actually like Duncan well enough, but what I hate is the hero-worship given to the Grey Wardens in DA:O/A (and Duncan's character is one part of that problem). That's not what they are, nor should they be. Grey Wardens are an evil, of the necessary variety. And because of his precious Duncan, Alistair's hissy fit about conscipting Loghain rings false, because Duncan was a thief and murderer who was conscripted to the GWs not as an honor but punishment.

 

I acknowledge sometimes there are necessary evils. Ex: I lean towards preserving the anvil of the void because the idealistic alternative of fighting the darkspawn traditionally has been implemented for centuries and isn't working. Caridin's idealism cost far more lives to the darkspawn than would be enslaved by the anvil; not to mention most dwarven territory. Caridin was biased though because he only became idealistic about it when he was the one turned into a golem.

 

A large point of my OP is that I don't believe the Grey Wardens are a necessary evil; at least not to the point where they get free reign to do as they please because they're "grey" so long as it supposedly helps to stop the blight. They're a vital asset to the war just as vanguards are to an army. That doesn't mean vanguards get to do whatever they want to boost recruitment because their role is needed.

[theskymoves]

And because of his precious Duncan, Alistair's hissy fit about conscipting Loghain rings false, because Duncan was a thief and murderer who was conscripted to the GWs not as an honor but punishment.

 

Meta-knowledge that Alistair is not privy to. Alistair's regard for Duncan is sincere, based on his knowledge of the man and what he did for Alistair. *washes hands of this idiotic fandom*

[Blazomancer]

A grey warden is more effective against darkspawn than a normal soldier. Hence the push for recruitment with a time constraint makes perfect sense.

[Jaison1986]

A grey warden is more effective against darkspawn than a normal soldier. Hence the push for recruitment with a time constraint makes perfect sense.

 

The dwarfs prove this belief wrong, Oghren himself fought darkspawn in the deep roads for many years and never got tainted and it's just as skilled as any grey warden.

[XxSnowfire]

I didn't think Duncan was too bad, but they could've done more for his character. I feel like we didn't get enough and he was the stereotypical good guy, only through Alistair did we get to learn more about him. He did seem hard on the characters with certain backgrounds but of course he had to focus on the bigger picture: stopping the blight and saving thousands of lives and possibly all of Fereldan. You can't fault him for that.

[Blazomancer]

@jaison - The dwarves don't prove anything. That the Legion of the Dead and other dwarven warriors have been in conflict with the darkspawn for centuries can only mean that they know the ways of the enemy and possibly how to minimize the risk of corruption better than any surfacer, which in turn means that they would be better than a warrior who never saw a darkspawn before. But there is nothing as of yet in the lore that suggests that a non-grey warden dwarf is more efficient than a grey-warden. Given that a grey warden can sense the presence of nearby tainted entities, which essentially mean better reflexes and survivability when dealing with a horde, I'd put my money on the grey warden. In addition to that, as I mentioned in my earlier post, there are tales of the first blight that mentions each warden handling groups of darkspawn at once.

As regards the taint, the information that we have about how actually someone gets infected is vague at best. So there's not really any point in considering why Oghren might not have contracted the taint. Why didn't the warden's companions get affected by all the tainted blood, why did only the Hawke sibling got infected while everyone remained unaffected. There is nothing that suggest that a dwarven legionnaire doesn't get corrupted every now and then.

[Chashan]

Meta-knowledge that Alistair is not privy to. Alistair's regard for Duncan is sincere, based on his knowledge of the man and what he did for Alistair. [...]

 

I do believe I went over how clueless 'stair appears to be about his fellow Wardens's biographies, despite being with them for quite a while. Quite a number of them do have a checkered past, the Origins themselves show as much first-hand.

 

The Grey Wardens certainly are not the Order of the Golden Fleece of Thedas, more like its Night's Watch.

[TEWR]

Meta-knowledge that Alistair is not privy to. Alistair's regard for Duncan is sincere, based on his knowledge of the man and what he did for Alistair. *washes hands of this idiotic fandom*

 

Yeah, but Alistair tells you in Ostagar that the Wardens are willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Blights, even some extreme things.

 

Not that I see this as extreme mind you, but it definitely falls under the jurisdiction of the former category. Beyond that, Alistair thinks he knows more then Riordan, Senior Warden of Jader, who despite all he's suffered (which I'd argue would give him more reason to advocate Loghain being killed) still says "He is useful. Keep him. Let him join us."