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Do players like Duncan?


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#126
Jaison1986

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Oh, you used the Caladrius example too. Another example I'd say is where she suggests slaughtering the Circle including the children because of her survivalist mentality. They are captive and therefore weak, which is absurd considering these children are like 6. Another is that she disapproves if you don't let that demon possess the girl in The Stone Prisoner.

 

I'll only take her advice if my character is evil which pretty much sums her up. Ironically despite believing she knows "what is what" as Flemeth (who I think is pretty wise) puts it I feel Morrigan's a pretty big fool; a bigger one than Alistair despite what she thinks of him. Ex: She thinks slaughtering the Dalish to possibly obtain a werewolf army is a good idea? Ex: She wants to release Jowan (the man who poisoned Arl Eamon) without question while Alistair suggests knowing the full story first.

 

I've never understood why she considers Alistair a fool either. Maybe it's because he isn't strong-willed to the point that he is content to follow. That doesn't make him foolish. At least he knows himself well enough to acknowledge this and isn't an emotional wreck in a relationship like she is. Morrigan claims to resent emotional attachment yet the minute you start a physical relationship with her she'll become very clingy and jealous. Ex: kissing that girl in Redcliffe or trying to sleep with Isabela. Even when Morrigan claims the relationship is purely physical she acts this way. Why? Because deep down she is a romantic but is in denial about it because of Flemeth's survivalist upbringing that was pounded into her.

 

A big factor that makes her a fool is if you play a female warden. Why? Because her end-game involves sleeping with Alistair and yet she takes every opportunity to belittle him; thus making the end-game harder to achieve. Considering her plans Morrigan should be working to get Alistair to like/trust her; not the opposite.

 

You don't actually kill the children if you attack Wynne, they just run away as you fight the adult mages. When it comes to Morrigan, you gotta put things in perspective. In the circle, I agreed with her perspective, I thought the mages were weak and submissive (I'm talking about the adults, not the children), and their current state was a result of their own weakness. "Servants of the Chantry, no respect for their own power, why should I respect them?". She also believes slaughtering the dalish is an good idea because the werewolves are stronger then them. Not to mention that from the start, the dalish treat you like absolute ****, despite you helping them, spitting on the hand that helps them. So she must think, why help an group that sends you to do their dirty job while kicking you on the back at the same time?

 

And as for Alistair, I suppose she thinks Alistair is an fool because he is weak willed, but there is also the fact he is an former templar and supporter of the Chantry. You wonder she hates him? And I think Alistair can be foolish himself when it comes to decision making, as he is the kind that allows feelings to cloud logical thinking. For example, if you side against Zathrian to break the curse he will give you this line: "We stand for what is right here, no matter what". But he doesn't even bother to think most of the times if "doing what is right" is the more beneficial thing to do. He stand against preserving the anvil, even if could come to an huge advantage to the fight against the darkspawn. And guess what? It does. The golems in the final battle are incredbly strong and make for an great support. I personally like to call this the "Harrowmont syndrome", just because an path seems to be the more honorable, doesn't instantly make it "the right one".



#127
Darkly Tranquil

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Duncan is exactly what a Grey Warden is and should be; a stone hearted, ruthless pragmatist. Despite Alistair's idealised view, the Grey Wardens aren't heroes, they aren't even good guys. At best they are anti-heroes, a necessary evil if you will. Even the name "Grey" Wardens is a statement about their morally ambiguous nature; everything from the Joining, to their habit of slaughtering entire villages to contain the taint point to the fact that they aren't shining beacon moral righteousness, yet the terrible things they are forced to do are done for ultimately valid reasons.

I don't really like or dislike Duncan, he is what he needs to be to get the job done. For the Grey Wardens, defeating the Blight is the only thing that matters, and anything and everything else can and if necessarily will be sacrificed to that goal. I suspect that Duncan knew that Ostagar was a losing proposition and that his objective was to expend Ferelden's armies to stall the Blight long enough for the Grey Warden and forces to mobilise and defeat the Blight at a later time. I have no doubt that the Wardens would be ruthless enough to sacrifice a single relatively unimportant (to the rest of Thedas) nation to buy time for the rest to rally their troops.

The difference between Duncan and Loghain is that Duncan was fighting the real immediate enemy, while Loghain was ignoring the real enemy in favour or focussing on an unproven suspicion of another, entirely lesser enemy.

#128
congokong

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You don't actually kill the children if you attack Wynne, they just run away as you fight the adult mages. When it comes to Morrigan, you gotta put things in perspective. In the circle, I agreed with her perspective, I thought the mages were weak and submissive (I'm talking about the adults, not the children), and their current state was a result of their own weakness. "Servants of the Chantry, no respect for their own power, why should I respect them?". She also believes slaughtering the dalish is an good idea because the werewolves are stronger then them. Not to mention that from the start, the dalish treat you like absolute ****, despite you helping them, spitting on the hand that helps them. So she must think, why help an group that sends you to do their dirty job while kicking you on the back at the same time?

 

And as for Alistair, I suppose she thinks Alistair is an fool because he is weak willed, but there is also the fact he is an former templar and supporter of the Chantry. You wonder she hates him? And I think Alistair can be foolish himself when it comes to decision making, as he is the kind that allows feelings to cloud logical thinking. For example, if you side against Zathrian to break the curse he will give you this line: "We stand for what is right here, no matter what". But he doesn't even bother to think most of the times if "doing what is right" is the more beneficial thing to do. He stand against preserving the anvil, even if could come to an huge advantage to the fight against the darkspawn. And guess what? It does. The golems in the final battle are incredbly strong and make for an great support. I personally like to call this the "Harrowmont syndrome", just because an path seems to be the more honorable, doesn't instantly make it "the right one".

 

 

The werewolves are stronger (maybe) than the Dalish but they're not near as reliable nor bound by any treaty to compel them to aid the wardens now or in the future. Morrigan wanting the werewolves is short-sighted and a huge gamble.

 

You don't kill the children in the Circle despite it being pointed out that you plan to because they don't let you kill children in video games. And the issue isn't about respecting the Circle mages. It's about slaughtering them just because you don't respect them which is something very different. That's what Morrigan suggests doing.

 

To me it seems Morrigan cherry-picks idealism/practicality. Locking mages up is practical yet she wants them freed (idealistic). Preserving the anvil is practical. Forcing Zathrian to break the curse is idealistic. Morrigan gives approval if you demand he lifts it. Choosing the werewolves is just stupid. In the long run it's not practical at all.

 

There is no right answer in idealism vs. practicality. But that's the thing. Everyone cherry-picks idealism/practicality. Morrigan considers Alistair a fool maybe because her cherry-picking doesn't coincide with his, but I think she declared him a fool pretty much immediately when he began crying over Duncan dying. That makes her a fool though not even knowing what factors make someone a fool. Crying, being a follower, being a good person, etc. don't make you a fool.


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#129
congokong

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@Darkly Tranquil

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What gives the Grey Wardens the right to take the easiest path towards their goal and damn the consequences? Because they're needed? So what? Archers are needed. Vanguards, hounds, farmers. etc. all are needed to win a blight. Everyone who is needed isn't given free reign to do whatever makes winning a blight easier. The Grey Wardens seem to think "whatever is necessary" and "whatever is convenient" to win the blight are the same thing. That's how Duncan looks at it at least and it's BS. Recruiting a Cousland who has just lost everything is not necessary. Having to sacrifice a warden to kill the archdemon is ...until Morrigan shows up with her ritual.

 

Ex:

 

"That man is carrying a lot of gold. Kill him and take it. It's necessary. We need gold to fund the wardens to win the blight."

 

By Duncan's mentality murdering someone to fund the wardens should be ok. You see the issue here?



#130
Elhanan

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@Darkly Tranquil
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. What gives the Grey Wardens the right to take the easiest path towards their goal and damn the consequences? Because they're needed? So what? Archers are needed. Vanguards, hounds, farmers. etc. all are needed to win a blight. Everyone who is needed isn't given free reign to do whatever makes winning a blight easier. The Grey Wardens seem to think "whatever is necessary" and "whatever is convenient" to win the blight are the same thing. That's how Duncan looks at it at least and it's BS. Recruiting a Cousland who has just lost everything is not necessary. Having to sacrifice a warden to kill the archdemon is ...until Morrigan shows up with her ritual.
 
Ex:
 
"That man is carrying a lot of gold. Kill him and take it. It's necessary. We need gold to fund the wardens to win the blight."
 
By Duncan's mentality murdering someone to fund the wardens should be ok. You see the issue here?


I actually agree with your general point in that I disagree with the 'End Justifying the Means' mentality, as I do not use it when playing many of my Wardens.

However, it does take a Grey Warden to end a Blight; the others are needed to fight in them, but cannot end them. The Duncan I meet is more on my side of the line, and does nothing that I recall that repulses me other than not informing me of the shortened lifespan due to the Taint. That said, my head canon allows me to use the Sacred Ashes to eliminate this problem, so forgive and forget....

#131
congokong

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However, it does take a Grey Warden to end a Blight; the others are needed to fight in them, but cannot end them.

 

Yes, idealistically the wardens are truly needed to end a blight. Practically so are archers and farmers. Take away the farmers and you have no food for the soldiers. Take away the archers and the warden will never even get to the archdemon.

 

 

The Duncan I meet is more on my side of the line, and does nothing that I recall that repulses me other than not informing me of the shortened lifespan due to the Taint. That said, my head canon allows me to use the Sacred Ashes to eliminate this problem, so forgive and forget....

 

An alternate headcanon could be Avernus' research allows the Hero of Ferelden to extend their life; even more likely if Avernus was spared and allowed to experiment as he wished. It's funny how allowing this results in no objection from Alistair. Doesn't Avernus experiment on other Grey Wardens?


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#132
Pateu

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I was neutral-ish towards him. I get him, considering AListair and the Warden are left alone in Thedas. I get  why Duncan had to recruit people.

 

But, indeed, he is sort of a dick.

 

He really didn't have to kill Jory. I know Jory saw the Joining and could not be left to tell others, but still... the dude's wife was expecting.

 

Knowing what Redcliffe went through, she most likely died, too. If Jory was there, well...



#133
theskymoves

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I was neutral-ish towards him. I get him, considering AListair and the Warden are left alone in Thedas. I get  why Duncan had to recruit people.

 

But, indeed, he is sort of a dick.

 

He really didn't have to kill Jory. I know Jory saw the Joining and could not be left to tell others, but still... the dude's wife was expecting.

 

Knowing what Redcliffe went through, she most likely died, too. If Jory was there, well...

 

Ser Jory's Helena is in Highever, not Redcliffe. 

 

Warden: Where are you from, Jory?

Ser Jory: I hail from Redcliffe, but Duncan recruited me in Highever, a city off the northern coast. Have you traveled there?

Warden: (a bunch of different things that all lead to...)
Ser Jory: I was in Arl Eamon's retinue when he attended King Maric's funeral. It was in Highever that I met my Helena. I was smitten. She has the most beautiful eyes, my Helena. For years, I found any excuse to return there. We married a year ago. Arl Eamon gave me leave to serve in Highever, but I was attempting to persuade Helena to come to Redcliffe with me. At least, until I was recruited.

 

Always wished a Cousland could tell Jory what happened in Highever, just to see his reaction. /terrible person



#134
Elhanan

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Yes, idealistically the wardens are truly needed to end a blight. Practically so are archers and farmers. Take away the farmers and you have no food for the soldiers. Take away the archers and the warden will never even get to the archdemon.


One is an immediate concern; the others are possibilities that may be addressed via other methods. Plus, Warden's can also be archers and farmers.
 
 

An alternate headcanon could be Avernus' research allows the Hero of Ferelden to extend their life; even more likely if Avernus was spared and allowed to experiment as he wished. It's funny how allowing this results in no objection from Alistair. Doesn't Avernus experiment on other Grey Wardens?


If allowed to continue the research, it is done from isolation within the Keep. Punishment is still issued, though it is not the penalty of death.

#135
congokong

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One is an immediate concern; the others are possibilities that may be addressed via other methods. Plus, Warden's can also be archers and farmers.
 

Which is an immediate concern? I'd say being fed is an immediate concern 24/7. A Grey Warden won't be a farmer anymore if they're busy fighting darkspawn as a Grey Warden. My point is they're all essential factors to win. The fact (until Morrigan's intervention) that one Grey Warden had to be sacrificed to finish off the archdemon is a description of their only essential role; hardly justification for the free reign all Grey Wardens have.



#136
DinkyD

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<snip>

 

. But he doesn't even bother to think most of the times if "doing what is right" is the more beneficial thing to do. He stand against preserving the anvil, even if could come to an huge advantage to the fight against the darkspawn. And guess what? It does. The golems in the final battle are incredbly strong and make for an great support. I personally like to call this the "Harrowmont syndrome", just because an path seems to be the more honorable, doesn't instantly make it "the right one".

 

If you reject some utilitarian “end justifies the means” that doesn't make you a fool or illogical. It makes you a moralist, if perhaps of a different stripe. Someone who doesn't already define right and wrong in terms of how it accomplishes some future goal is not likely to be swayed by being told how beneficial golems might be.

 

One is committing a definite harmful act in the present in the hope that you can get some kind of beneficial pay off in the future.

 

How sure do you have to be that the golems will make a difference to the battle before preserving the anvil is no longer an immoral act? Quite sure? A bit sure? Only 10% sure? If you would get only one golem from the anvil for the battle, would it be the wrong decision?Would it be right decision at 100 golems? Where is the line between right and wrong here drawn?

 

Perhaps to some, even being prepared to do that kind of moral calculus with other people's lives is ethically questionable.

 

I do however, think that given the very specific, necessary way that Wardens are required to kill the archdemon, Duncan is in a very unique situation. Hat's off to the writers for coming up with such a rare scenario that actually allows this clash of moralities.


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#137
congokong

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@DinkyD

 

I'm thinking that many players defend the "Grey Wardens' ends-justify-the-means 'do whatever is necessary'  to the point that they can basically do as they wish to aid in battling the blight" mentality only because it's been emphasized through the whole game that it's ok. This idea is reinforced by comments I'm seeing on this thread. Considering the role Grey Wardens are actually needed for, I don't see justification for the free reign Grey Wardens have. It's disturbing how players can be influenced to the point where they defend Duncan committing murder to keep Grey Warden secrets; secrets that many including Anora seem to already know. Even worse is how such secrets aren't necessary to keep. If people were told just why Grey Wardens were needed to end a blight there would be willing and unwilling participants to do it. And perhaps Loghain wouldn't have tried to exterminate them if the world could conveniently be informed just what role they're actually needed for; considering how often "Grey Warden" and "needed" are in the same sentence.

 

As for the Anvil of the Void, if we couldn't know just how useful it would be I would be far more reluctant to keep it. My defense for keeping it is more for Orzammar's sake than for stopping the blight. This is because the dwarven kingdom is going extinct and the idealistic alternative of not resorting to golems has been implemented for centuries and isn't working. Quite the opposite. At this point it's either using a necessary evil like golems to save the kingdom or let the dwarves die out. The fact that golems can aid against the blight is just a bonus.



#138
Elhanan

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Which is an immediate concern? I'd say being fed is an immediate concern 24/7. A Grey Warden won't be a farmer anymore if they're busy fighting darkspawn as a Grey Warden. My point is they're all essential factors to win. The fact (until Morrigan's intervention) that one Grey Warden had to be sacrificed to finish off the archdemon is a description of their only essential role; hardly justification for the free reign all Grey Wardens have.


The immediate concern is having a Warden around at the moment of the death of the Archdemon. Foodstuffs may be stored, and other tactics can be used to substitute for archers (eg; magic), but a Warden or witchcraft is necessary.

And I agree that this does not justify the free reign of the Warden's; the very point raised in the Warden's Keep DLC, as both the Warden's and the King were incorrect in their actions. But as mentioned earlier, while Duncan may have spoken of this belief, he did not demonstrate this in his actions that I recall.

#139
congokong

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And I agree that this does not justify the free reign of the Warden's; the very point raised in the Warden's Keep DLC, as both the Warden's and the King were incorrect in their actions. But as mentioned earlier, while Duncan may have spoken of this belief, he did not demonstrate this in his actions that I recall.

Duncan hasn't committed actions that portray the free reign of the wardens? In my OP I went over the Cousland example and how he murdered Jory to keep secrets that I'm amazed are kept secret to any extent nor should be kept.



#140
DinkyD

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@congokong

 

 My fascination with the warden/archdemon question is that it's one of the best examples/arguments I've come across in favour for a philosophy I disagree with, and continue to disagree. For that, Duncan earns my respect – if that makes sense. And like you, I think there are more ethical alternatives to the way the wardens go about their business. I did get the impression Duncan is one of the better Grey Wardens, if that means anything.



#141
Elhanan

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Duncan hasn't committed actions that portray the free reign of the wardens? In my OP I went over the Cousland example and how he murdered Jory to keep secrets that I'm amazed are kept secret to any extent nor should be kept.


The Cousland recruitment, while not as magnanimous as possible, was hardly contested by any present save the PC themselves. And then it comes down to RP which will differ per each indv Player.

Jory seemed to be killed after gaining the knowledge that the Joining could be fatal (which would seem to impair future recruitment), and was explained to him in some dialogue choices that leaving was too late. Also, he was not defenseless, and also drew first (which is rather humorous when first disrobing all of those in the Joining to try gain loot).

#142
congokong

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Jory seemed to be killed after gaining the knowledge that the Joining could be fatal (which would seem to impair future recruitment), and was explained to him in some dialogue choices that leaving was too late. Also, he was not defenseless, and also drew first (which is rather humorous when first disrobing all of those in the Joining to try gain loot).

 

...While backing himself into a corner the way a cornered fox would show their teeth. Duncan drew his own sword and approached to engage in combat; making him the aggressor. At this point Jory rightfully struck first as it became clear Duncan was intent on killing him.

 

 

 

@DinkyD

 

It's disturbing how players can be influenced to the point where they defend Duncan committing murder to keep Grey Warden secrets; secrets that many including Anora seem to already know. Even worse is how such secrets aren't necessary to keep. If people were told just why Grey Wardens were needed to end a blight there would be willing and unwilling participants to do it. And perhaps Loghain wouldn't have tried to exterminate them if the world could conveniently be informed just what role they're actually needed for; considering how often "Grey Warden" and "needed" are in the same sentence.



#143
dekarserverbot

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Now the real question comes in... is there any "real evil one" or "goody two shoes" besides the neglected cannonical Lady Aeduncan and Prince Cousland respectively?

After doing more playthrougs i find that there are no renegades neither paragons here, everyone is victim of eich other, and that includes both darkspawns and graywardens too.

How can we say that Alistair is good? I mean he was a templar, and maybe is my assasin background (unrelated pun intended) but i think no templar is a good one, they are just half nazis half school principals, that's pretty evil. Also if you play the darkspawn chronicles you see that he ACTUALLY preserved the anvil (you fight golems and shale is not present at anytime, did Oghren conviced him to preserve the anvil?).

In other words I see that the only evil one here is Avernus. Else is just dabbling in an infinite shades of gray, even sobs like Duncan, Bhelen and Loghain.

#144
Elhanan

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It's disturbing how players can be influenced to the point where they defend Duncan committing murder to keep Grey Warden secrets; secrets that many including Anora seem to already know. Even worse is how such secrets aren't necessary to keep. If people were told just why Grey Wardens were needed to end a blight there would be willing and unwilling participants to do it. And perhaps Loghain wouldn't have tried to exterminate them if the world could conveniently be informed just what role they're actually needed for; considering how often "Grey Warden" and "needed" are in the same sentence.


Duncan killed Jory, but did not commit murder. Ser Jory had full knowledge of his choices, actions, and consequenses, and drew his blade first.

And I agree with the idea that the Warden's should be up front with recruits. But as Duncan was placed in a time with low numbers and little time to gain further recruits, his choice to omit the warning is understandable, though we both disagree with it. This does not make Duncan unlikeable to me; simply another flawed individual like myself.

#145
theskymoves

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How can we say that Alistair is good? I mean he was a templar, and maybe is my assasin background (unrelated pun intended) but i think no templar is a good one, they are just half nazis half school principals, that's pretty evil.  

 

Alistair was never a templar. He trained to be one eventually, but that's not the same as actually being one. That the entire thing was against his will and not his choice is a whole 'nother thing entirely and the cherry on top of my "Nope nope nope". *facepalms at the idea of paladin!Alistair being 'evil'*



#146
gottaloveme

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Whatever it takes to end the blight I have always taken to mean things like getting involved in Orzammar politics and the Werewolf curse. Wardens don't get involved in local affairs - normally but in facing a blight they need to have a bum on the throne of Orzammar and the Elves able to mobilise. Not to mention a functioning circle. And although my warden pilfers, pillages and steals, well a gal's gotta eat and keep her band of loonies from starving, and keep them clothed, shod and weapons in good repair.

 

Hmmm - considering some of the mods out there she would also need cash for the hairdressers and bikini waxes. Can't kill an archdemon with frizzy hair or wavering bikini line. :D



#147
gottaloveme

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I was neutral-ish towards him. I get him, considering AListair and the Warden are left alone in Thedas. I get  why Duncan had to recruit people.

 

But, indeed, he is sort of a dick.

 

He really didn't have to kill Jory. I know Jory saw the Joining and could not be left to tell others, but still... the dude's wife was expecting.

 

Knowing what Redcliffe went through, she most likely died, too. If Jory was there, well...

 

Ser Jory knew that the tourney he competed in was for Duncan's benefit. He was all starry-eyed about the wardens. He fought for the right to be recruited even tho' his wife was expecting their first child. She would have lost him anyway if he had not survived the drinking the brew.

 

If everyone knew what being a warden entailed (which includes nothing glorious) no-one would want to join. B)



#148
Darkly Tranquil

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@Darkly Tranquil
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. What gives the Grey Wardens the right to take the easiest path towards their goal and damn the consequences? Because they're needed? So what? Archers are needed. Vanguards, hounds, farmers. etc. all are needed to win a blight. Everyone who is needed isn't given free reign to do whatever makes winning a blight easier. The Grey Wardens seem to think "whatever is necessary" and "whatever is convenient" to win the blight are the same thing. That's how Duncan looks at it at least and it's BS. Recruiting a Cousland who has just lost everything is not necessary. Having to sacrifice a warden to kill the archdemon is ...until Morrigan shows up with her ritual.
 
Ex:
 
"That man is carrying a lot of gold. Kill him and take it. It's necessary. We need gold to fund the wardens to win the blight."
 
By Duncan's mentality murdering someone to fund the wardens should be ok. You see the issue here?


It's all justified by necessity and the fact that they are the only ones who really know what a Blight means and what the true consequences of failure would mean. When facing a Blight there are two options, victory or extinction. In such a battle (a total war if you will), all the rules go out the window in favour of the need to survive and to win. It's war against a merciless, implacable enemy; it's brutal, cruel, horrible, wasteful, and unfair, but victory (and therefore survival) is all that matters and how you achieve it is purely a matter of academic debate for afterwards. When the choice is win or die, I can't think of a better argument for taking the "by any means necessary" approach.

It's not even a matter of what is convenient versus what is necessary, it's a matter of what will maxmise the chances of achieving certain victory in the most efficient and shortest possible time. The overall amount of suffering incurred by the denizens of Thedas is reduced by ensuring the Blight is defeated as quickly as possible, so ruthless decisions made in the short term may well yield worthwhile results. I acknowledge that the word "may" means that the Wardens could potentially do awful things purely on the hope that it will yield results, but they do that already, hence my point that the Wardens are not good guys. They do the dirty job that no-one else has the stomach for.

The Cousland recruitment is an example this, Cousland has proved him/herself a skilled fighter to survive the massacre at Highever, letting them stay to die in a blaze of glory with their parents or go lurking around seeking revenge on Howe would be wasting a resource that would be more useful to Thedas with the Wardens in battle against the Blight. Duncan might be a jerk about it, but he is right, the Blight is the only thing that matters. Cousland's grudge against Howe, and Loghain's grudge against Orlais are completely meaningless if Ferelden's is obliterated by the Darkspawn. Duncan is focused on the big picture, while everyone else is worrying about their own concerns because they don't understand the magnitude of the threat the way the Wardens do.

As for your example, it's a false one. Duncan could either simply requisition the funds for the war effort, as military forces have done with private property since time immemorial, or hold him up and take it. No need to kill him just for that.

From my perspective, there is only one consideration in choosing actions while fighting a Blight - does this enhance our chances of destroying the Blight as quickly as possible? If the answer is yes, then the action is valid. People can debate the morality of those actions later (if anyone is still alive).
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#149
congokong

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@DarklyTranquil

 

I repeat, the wardens shouldn't be the only ones who know what it takes to win. Withholding that information is stupid. It indirectly caused Loghain's civil war. While the Blight may be a "win at any cost" scenario (debatable since the whole world's existence isn't in peril like the reaper threat of Mass Effect), I keep saying the wardens aren't essential enough to have such freedoms to do whatever they want that they feel gets them closer to victory faster while others are restricted. And there should be some degree of ethics even in wartime. Ex: If the wardens learned burning the southern half of the country was manageable and would greatly increase chances of victory in a shorter amount of time, should they? When you start using ruthless calculus to the Loghain/Architect extent you aren't much better than the darkspawn. You're so focused on winning you forget what you're fighting for. You should take a lesson from Loghain and see the dangers of justifying tyranny and how merging necessary/convenient in war can create incredible havoc. It might sound very idealistic but if you're trying to save your eggs and have the option of breaking 11 of a dozen to do it; it might be best to look for an alternative at the risk of losing them all. A line should be drawn on what you're willing to sacrifice to increase chances of victory.

 

My previous example isn't false. Assume the man cannot be restrained and will react violently to the attempt to steal his money. By your logic it's alright to kill him then.


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#150
congokong

congokong
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Ser Jory knew that the tourney he competed in was for Duncan's benefit. He was all starry-eyed about the wardens. He fought for the right to be recruited even tho' his wife was expecting their first child. She would have lost him anyway if he had not survived the drinking the brew.

 

If everyone knew what being a warden entailed (which includes nothing glorious) no-one would want to join. B)

During a blight people would; especially when they knew the one vital role they played.