Aller au contenu

Photo

Do players like Duncan?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
245 réponses à ce sujet

#176
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

Even with that disbelief, there were many gathered at Ostagar, including what Wardens were available, and others coming being detained by politics; not disbelief. While many may not believe, some will, and action and increased numbers is preferable to inaction and fewer participants.

None of this alters the notion that I like Duncan as presented. Flawed characters are more believable, IMO.

I never said no one fought against the blight due to disbelief, and I'm sure the armies at Ostagar were acting more out of response to the horde marching from the south than Duncan's word. Yes, Cailan vouching for Duncan helped even if done out of fascination for legends rather than logic. But even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? Taken alone though people don't put much faith in Warden certainty. Ex: Loghain, Howe in the Cousland origin, and even Alistair said most thought Duncan was "merely guessing" about his certainty of the blight.

 

As for Duncan, I acknowledge he was a good character for the story and was glad to see him killed off even so. That doesn't mean I like nor agree with his ends-justify-the-means attitude and his loose interpretation of what is necessary.



#177
Mike3207

Mike3207
  • Members
  • 1 727 messages

 

 

As for Duncan, I acknowledge he was a good character for the story and was glad to see him killed off even so. That doesn't mean I like nor agree with his ends-justify-the-means attitude and his loose interpretation of what is necessary.

It's not just Duncan-all the Wardens have that 'end justifies the means' attitude.


  • BlazingSpeed et DeathScepter aiment ceci

#178
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 429 messages

I never said no one fought against the blight due to disbelief, and I'm sure the armies at Ostagar were acting more out of response to the horde marching from the south than Duncan's word. Yes, Cailan vouching for Duncan helped even if done out of fascination for legends rather than logic. But even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? Taken alone though people don't put much faith in Warden certainty. Ex: Loghain, Howe in the Cousland origin, and even Alistair said most thought Duncan was "merely guessing" about his certainty of the blight.
 
As for Duncan, I acknowledge he was a good character for the story and was glad to see him killed off even so. That doesn't mean I like nor agree with his ends-justify-the-means attitude and his loose interpretation of what is necessary.


The idea that the minority belive is even a better reson to improve the odds with increased numbers; not less. Better to work with a clock that is working; not waiting around to be correct.

And while Duncan espouses an ends resultant belief, his actions do not reflect that to an extreme point. Duncan does not force recruitment even though he could, as it hurts the Wardens over the long term. We simply will differ on how we see the man, as I like the character presented.
  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#179
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

It's not just Duncan-all the Wardens have that 'end justifies the means' attitude.

That's the principle they stand by (whose premise I've criticized in the OP) but not all Wardens have that attitude. Ex: Alistair.

 

The idea that the minority belive is even a better reson to improve the odds with increased numbers; not less. Better to work with a clock that is working; not waiting around to be correct.

And while Duncan espouses an ends resultant belief, his actions do not reflect that to an extreme point. Duncan does not force recruitment even though he could, as it hurts the Wardens over the long term. We simply will differ on how we see the man, as I like the character presented.

As I said extensively in my OP, Duncan does force recruitment like with the Cousland origin. As also said in my OP, he also murdered Jory because of his ends resultant belief. Sigh. I'm forced to repeat myself many times here.



#180
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 429 messages

That's the principle they stand by (whose premise I've criticized in the OP) but not all Wardens have that attitude. Ex: Alistair.
 
As I said extensively in my OP, Duncan does force recruitment like with the Cousland origin. As also said in my OP, he also murdered Jory because of his ends resultant belief. Sigh. I'm forced to repeat myself many times here.


Duncan did not force recruitment of the HN, at least the PC were to insist on dying with his parents. He was there for another - his second choice as I recall - and apparently insisted only if the PC were to take an extreme stance; one I never tried personally. As it goes, one either went with Duncan, or died with his parents forcing Duncan to leave empty handed.

Duncan did not murder Jory, and repeating it does not make it true.
  • DeathScepter aime ceci

#181
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 410 messages

Uh...yes Duncan sure in hell does force recruitment of several characters if the PC keeps rejecting the invitation.

 

There is no choice to stay and die with your parents. (Which is stupid anyway. I'd dragged my mother out of there. Duncan leaving her behind and force recruiting the PC there is logical but only added to my HN's disgust of the entire organization).

 

He flat out says he's tempted to conscript but the Couslanads are too powerful to make as enemies. As soon as that's not the case...


  • Dutchess et congokong aiment ceci

#182
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

Duncan did not force recruitment of the HN, at least the PC were to insist on dying with his parents. He was there for another - his second choice as I recall - and apparently insisted only if the PC were to take an extreme stance; one I never tried personally. As it goes, one either went with Duncan, or died with his parents forcing Duncan to leave empty handed.

Duncan did not murder Jory, and repeating it does not make it true.

Maybe you should try refusing Duncan in the human noble origin before you make stupid claims like "Duncan never forces anyone into recruitment," because he does force you if you keep refusing (which I did). Same with the Dalish. And he'd conscript anyone he wished to join that didn't go willingly; giving them the illusion of choice.

 

I've done more on this thread than just repeat "Duncan murdered Jory." I've explained it extensively from the false premise of keeping warden secrets to how Jory had cold feet; and that Duncan was the aggressor who made practically no effort (literally only saying "there is no turning back") before turning to bloodshed.



#183
Elhanan

Elhanan
  • Members
  • 18 429 messages

Maybe you should try refusing Duncan in the human noble origin before you make stupid claims like "Duncan never forces anyone into recruitment," because he does force you if you keep refusing (which I did). Same with the Dalish. And he'd conscript anyone he wished to join that didn't go willingly; giving them the illusion of choice.
 
I've done more on this thread than just repeat "Duncan murdered Jory." I've explained it extensively from the false premise of keeping warden secrets to how Jory had cold feet; and that Duncan was the aggressor who made practically no effort (literally only saying "there is no turning back") before turning to bloodshed.


Never said this; re-read the quote. And I do not have to play the refusal dialogue path, as it would seemingly be a short game if refusal was accepted.

And while you see it as murder does not equate to proof or fact. Since inflammatory posts are starting to appear, I leave you with the right to be wrong if you wish.
  • Hammerstorm aime ceci

#184
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 410 messages

Eh what Duncan did with Jory was stupid and wasteful. He lets the one member of the trio that's easily the most excitable first see what can happen if you fail the test? Jory should've gone first and Duncan was a fool to have him go after thief dude (forgot his name).


  • congokong aime ceci

#185
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

Eh what Duncan did with Jory was stupid and wasteful. He lets the one member of the trio that's easily the most excitable first see what can happen if you fail the test? Jory should've gone first and Duncan was a fool to have him go after thief dude (forgot his name).

 

To be fair, he didn't foresee what would happen



#186
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 410 messages

To be fair, he didn't foresee what would happen

 

He could clearly see however that Jory was the weakest link. As their commander one would think he'd have the foresight to go "Maybe the dude that's already on the fence about this should go first to get it over with." especially since he knows what the worst case scenario looks like.


  • congokong aime ceci

#187
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

He could clearly see however that Jory was the weakest link. As their commander one would think he'd have the foresight to go "Maybe the dude that's already on the fence about this should go first to get it over with." especially since he knows what the worst case scenario looks like.

 

Maybe he thought Jory would suck it up like a big boy :P



#188
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 410 messages

Maybe he thought Jory would suck it up like a big boy :P

 

*snort* Either way stupid decision.


  • congokong aime ceci

#189
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
  • Members
  • 2 095 messages

The idea that the minority belive is even a better reson to improve the odds with increased numbers; not less. Better to work with a clock that is working; not waiting around to be correct.And while Duncan espouses an ends resultant belief, his actions do not reflect that to an extreme point. Duncan does not force recruitment even though he could, as it hurts the Wardens over the long term. We simply will differ on how we see the man, as I like the character presented.


To be fair, though, Duncan was trying to navigate his way through the politics of a country with which the Grey Wardens have a difficult history (due to the stupidity and arrogance of Sophia Dryden), without rocking the boat too much. Throwing his weight around and conscripting left, right, and centre would have only served to reinforce Ferelden's (and Loghain's specifically) suspicions about the Warden's motives.

As I've said previously, I think Duncan knew Ostagar was nothing but a rearguard action to buy time for Ferelden and the rest of Thedas to prepare. He was willing to take what Wardens he could get, but probably didn't expect any of them to survive Ostagar anyway.

#190
Mike3207

Mike3207
  • Members
  • 1 727 messages


As I've said previously, I think Duncan knew Ostagar was nothing but a rearguard action to buy time for Ferelden and the rest of Thedas to prepare. He was willing to take what Wardens he could get, but probably didn't expect any of them to survive Ostagar anyway.

If that's the case, then why would he tell the recruits after the Joining there was plenty of time to let them know everything about the Wardens.That comment definitely implies Duncan expected to survive the battle.It seems to me Duncan was trying to have it both ways-let them know they might not survive, but also try to convince them they were going to win.

 

The thing that bothers me is there were no preparations made in the circumstance they would lose. No future Warden commander announced, nothing on the Warden secrets or any supplies of Archdemon blood or how the Joining is made, nothing on future recruitment plans, and all Wardens on the front lines.If Duncan thought the Wardens would lose, those preparations should have been made. More than anything, that lack of plans leads me to think he believed Cailan-it would be a glorious victory.



#191
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
  • Members
  • 2 095 messages

If that's the case, then why would he tell the recruits after the Joining there was plenty of time to let them know everything about the Wardens.That comment definitely implies Duncan expected to survive the battle.It seems to me Duncan was trying to have it both ways-let them know they might not survive, but also try to convince them they were going to win.
 
The thing that bothers me is there were no preparations made in the circumstance they would lose. No future Warden commander announced, nothing on the Warden secrets or any supplies of Archdemon blood or how the Joining is made, nothing on future recruitment plans, and all Wardens on the front lines.If Duncan thought the Wardens would lose, those preparations should have been made. More than anything, that lack of plans leads me to think he believed Cailan-it would be a glorious victory.


Like I said, I think he was buying time for the Wardens of Orlais, the Free Marches, and Weisshaupt to get into gear. I imagine he had already written Ferelden off as a lost cause once Loghain refused to allow the Orlesian reinforcements in. But given that they had already beaten back several waves of Darkspawn attacks, he probably thought there was more time before the big push came and that he would have time to instruct the new recruits. Who knows, perhaps there would have been had Loghain not deserted?

But not even Cailan, for all his bluster, believed they would win at Ostagar, Elric Maraigne (one of Cailan's bodyguards) says as much in Return to Ostagar. Ostagar was, at best, a holding action until more reinforcements could be brought in, but because it was a Blight, and not simply a Darkspawn incursion as people like Loghain assumed, eventually Ferelden's forces would have been depleted (or overrun) and foreign forces would have either had to be called in (despite Loghain's objections), or would have simply moved in once there were no more Fereldens left to stop them. Doesn't Riordan mention at one point that the Wardens and armies of Orlais are waiting at the border for Ferelden to fall so they can move in and deal with the Darkspawn without having to waste time and men fighting against Ferelden forces?

Regarding the Archdaemon blood and the joining, I rather get the impression that the Wardens reveal information on a strictly need-to-know basis (possibly based on duration of service or rank); so new recruits are probably never told the truth about the Wardens until their allegiance and commitment to the cause has been confirmed (ie. they have been fully indoctrinated). Besides which, if they were likely to die in the upcoming battle anyway, telling them all the Warden secrets might not have been the best use of the limited time he had left. It may have been as simple as him thinking "Either we will live long enough for me to tell them, or we won't; in which case it won't matter."

I don't have any concrete proof for my theory, it's based more on Duncan's pleas to Cailan to bring in more troops from Redcliffe and Orlais (and being knocked back) and his generally grim approach to the whole thing; he appears very much like a man who knows he is marching to the gallows and is doing the best he can in a no-win situation. His efforts to fight the Blight are being hamstrung by a complacent political leadership that does not really believe the threat is real and refuses to take the steps necessary to actually fight it (Remember that the rest of Thedas thinks the Darkspawn were defeated for good after the 4th Blight). All he can do is try to do as much damage to the Darkspawn as he can and hold them back for as long as possible, and then hope the rest of Wardens from other countries can finish the task.

#192
Riven326

Riven326
  • Members
  • 1 284 messages

1. Duncan is denying the pc the opportunity of vengeance against Howe.

2. Becoming a Warden is a practically a death sentence either from the joining itself, being slain by darkspawn, or the taint killing them. That makes what Duncan does close to regicide.

3. Duncan treats this as "the price" for helping the human noble leave. Putting aside just how much Duncan's "help" is needed, his attitude is basically "I've saved your life, now I own it." That's some gratitude for the hospitality the Couslands have shown you Duncan...

4. Duncan chooses one of the most inapproprate times to spring such a life changing decision on the pc by force. The circumstances made it easy, but they are far from ethical...

 

1. No, he's not. Duncan knows the king will punish Howe.

2. It's not regicide. He's no longer royalty when the PC becomes a Grey Warden. That life is over.

3. He asks Cousland if he can recruit his son/daughter into the Grey Wardens. The father agrees, so long as Howe is broguth to justice.

4. Duncan had no way of knowing the castle would be attacked by Howe. He was being patient and trying to respect Cousland's wishes.



#193
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 998 messages

1. No, he's not. Duncan knows the king will punish Howe.

2. It's not regicide. He's no longer royalty when the PC becomes a Grey Warden. That life is over.

3. He asks Cousland if he can recruit his son/daughter into the Grey Wardens. The father agrees, so long as Howe is broguth to justice.

4. Duncan had no way of knowing the castle would be attacked by Howe. He was being patient and trying to respect Cousland's wishes.

1. I said "deny the pc vengeance against Howe." He specifically states that he's denying the pc that. And he couldn't know Cailan would go after Howe although he could safely assume so.

2. That statement is so absurd when you consider that Alistair can easily become King of Ferelden. Or that your Cousland can marry either Anora or Alistair to become king/queen. Also consider throughout Origins how others treat your pc if they're a Cousland as if they are indeed still nobility.

3. He doesn't "ask." He says "the blight demands" he leaves with a recruit. Its the pc's choice on if they want to become a Grey Warden regardless as they're an adult; not the father's who isn't in the best position to make such a decision anyway considering he's dying in a pool of his own blood. Duncan taking advantage of that is despicable. And when the pc's "choice" doesn't align with Duncan's wishes he conscripts him. Asking for the pc to join is an illusion when it's forced.

4. Irrelevant. My statement stands.


  • dekarserverbot aime ceci

#194
gottaloveme

gottaloveme
  • Members
  • 1 490 messages

If that's the case, then why would he tell the recruits after the Joining there was plenty of time to let them know everything about the Wardens.That comment definitely implies Duncan expected to survive the battle.It seems to me Duncan was trying to have it both ways-let them know they might not survive, but also try to convince them they were going to win.

 

The thing that bothers me is there were no preparations made in the circumstance they would lose. No future Warden commander announced, nothing on the Warden secrets or any supplies of Archdemon blood or how the Joining is made, nothing on future recruitment plans, and all Wardens on the front lines.If Duncan thought the Wardens would lose, those preparations should have been made. More than anything, that lack of plans leads me to think he believed Cailan-it would be a glorious victory.

 

Probably wasn't counting on being abandoned either.

 

Forgive the pedantry - but regicide is for royalty I think and the Couslands are nobility. :) B) I'm sure someone equally as pedantic will tell me if I'm wrong.



#195
Mike3207

Mike3207
  • Members
  • 1 727 messages

I don't think i mentioned regicide.That was in other posts.



#196
MKDAWUSS

MKDAWUSS
  • Members
  • 3 416 messages

If that's the case, then why would he tell the recruits after the Joining there was plenty of time to let them know everything about the Wardens.That comment definitely implies Duncan expected to survive the battle.It seems to me Duncan was trying to have it both ways-let them know they might not survive, but also try to convince them they were going to win.

 

The thing that bothers me is there were no preparations made in the circumstance they would lose. No future Warden commander announced, nothing on the Warden secrets or any supplies of Archdemon blood or how the Joining is made, nothing on future recruitment plans, and all Wardens on the front lines.If Duncan thought the Wardens would lose, those preparations should have been made. More than anything, that lack of plans leads me to think he believed Cailan-it would be a glorious victory.

And if it wasn't for the fact that Flemeth bailed out Alistair and the Hero of Ferelden, the only Grey Warden in Ferelden would have been Riordan, sitting in a cell. They really didn't have any contingency plans, and if they (Duncan and Cailan) knew it was going to be a disaster, why did they (especially Cailan) demand to fight on the front lines? I do think that Duncan was more aware to the reality that this might be the big one, though.



#197
thewolfwarden

thewolfwarden
  • Members
  • 4 messages

i like Duncan. For as little he is  in the  game. Maybe if you read the novel Dragon age The calling you may like him better.



#198
Kenshen

Kenshen
  • Members
  • 2 107 messages

Didn't care for Duncan all that much.  The only one that I don't throw a tamtrum after the right of conscription is used is the dwarf noble.  If it were RL and I was the Cousland there is zero chance I leave my parents like that without a fight.  All I have to say is Duncan better sleep with one eye open cause I have daggers and I will use them.  Curious though I am sure Duncan would be more skilled than the young Cousland but could he defeat both the human and his/her marbari? 


  • Jaison1986 et congokong aiment ceci

#199
Willowhugger

Willowhugger
  • Members
  • 3 489 messages

Didn't care for Duncan all that much.  The only one that I don't throw a tamtrum after the right of conscription is used is the dwarf noble.  If it were RL and I was the Cousland there is zero chance I leave my parents like that without a fight.  All I have to say is Duncan better sleep with one eye open cause I have daggers and I will use them.  Curious though I am sure Duncan would be more skilled than the young Cousland but could he defeat both the human and his/her marbari? 

 

Hey, I was [censored] at my parents.

"Thanks, mom, commit suicide. Nice job."



#200
berelinde

berelinde
  • Members
  • 8 282 messages

I loved Duncan. Seriously. I liked how he seemed so charming and deferential, yet when it mattered, he was pragmatic and even ruthless. Do I think he was a saint? Of course not! But he was likable.


  • Hammerstorm aime ceci