245 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Nope, I didn't like Duncan nor the methods of the wardens at all.  They have to use deceit and trickery to swell their ranks at a very very high cost.

[congokong]

There's something contradictory about defending Duncan murdering Jory besides what has already been mentioned. In Awakening characters can freely leave the Grey Wardens with low enough disapproval and no one stops them. Even after the game is over many still leave according to the epilogues aka "rumors," and Nathaniel and Anders do leave as shown in DA2. They know more about the order than Jory does at this point yet the Warden-Commander doesn't kill them when they desert. The same applies to Anders in DA2 with Stroud in the Deep Roads. Stroud knows he's a deserter who has these precious Grey Warden secrets yet makes no attempt to kill or capture him.

 

Duncan's method of handling Jory was so messed up. Even if his actions were justified as a last resort (assuming the Grey Warden secrets premise is justified which I don't believe it is), he made practically no verbal effort besides "there's no turning back" before just killing Jory. A dead Jory isn't of any use to his family or the Grey Wardens, Duncan.

[Beerfish]

 

 

Duncan's method of handling Jory was so messed up. Even if his actions were justified as a last resort (assuming the Grey Warden secrets premise is justified which I don't believe it is), he made practically no verbal effort besides "there's no turning back" before just killing Jory. A dead Jory isn't of any use to his family or the Grey Wardens, Duncan.

The general practice for recruitment is AFU if you ask me.  They basically need a small number of wardens to affect a killing blow but they are happy to deplete the lands of just a ton of highly qualified excellent fighters to get a few wardens.

 

Jory was the champion of his area.  Mahiri was a highly qualified well trained knight.  Davin was a good archer and good fighter, all dead and out of the fight just to drink some spawn blood to maybe become a warden.  How many darkspawn could of they killed and held at bay?  Just a waste of resources.  Especially since my warden really didn't seem to have any great tangential ability vs the dark spawn.

[Zana]

I am not sure what I will be able to add with regards to Duncan's character what was not said before.  I do believe that *in character* the Warden get's a short but fairly accurate prespective - Duncan is calculating and ruthless, bent on stopping the Blight.  Whether the ends justify the means has been discussed in this thread quite nicely.  I do believe that the reasons why Duncan comes out like a hero while Loghain seems a villian are twofold:  One is that we get a lot more facetime with Loghain.  Duncan dies almost right away (can be said dying heroically, although that is open to debate), and only leaves a fleeting (if sour) impression during the gameplay.  Furthermore, this impression is greatly influenced by a certain bastard tag along.  And two, is that knowing how it all ends, we know that the bottom line is that Duncan was right and Loghain was wrong.  And we can discuss to no end that one is no better than the other, but from metagaming prespective, Duncan's ruthlessness was justified (as it helped end the Blight) and Loghain's was not.

 

I wanted to write an essay on Alistair, but other than the fact that he has a serious issue with hero worship of Duncan, not much needs to be said.  The hero worship completely blinds him to all the negative character aspect, and to an extend makes it an amusing charicature on all the followers main character can have in a variety of games (especially DA2 IMO) where they follow you even when you do things they completely disagree with.

 

The discussion with regards to whether GW system portrayed in DA is the best system is moot.  Let's be honest, a lot of system in medieval society are not the best,  A lot of trade secrets are hidden inside a guild or even individual master and can easily be lost due to accidents.  As such, we have to work with what is currently given to us.  An easy parallel is the Templar Order.  The skills they learn are NOT dependent on lyrium, but lyrium is still used, causing addiction and likely early death.  As seen in DAO during Circle arc, not every templar is overly happy with being where he is and doing what he does.  A lot of systems in DA universe are imperfect, but it will take some massive event like what is likely to be seen in DA:I to reform them.  Bottom line is that people are comfortable with the status quo - if the system has worked thus far, there is no need to change it.  Remember what it took to have the Circles established in the first place.  And since then the system(s) worked. 

[congokong]

@Zana

 

Well, throughout all these pages I've argued that Duncan's ruthlessness wasn't justified even though it helped end the blight. The ends do not always justify the means, and I've painstakingly argued that he didn't have to resort to such methods to stop the blight. If people still defend Duncan and the Grey Warden premise after reading all these posts then there's nothing more I can say.

 

I look at both Duncan and Loghain as "bad people" in a sense, but Duncan is very wrongfully portrayed in-game while Loghain isn't. But check DA fans opinions of Loghain on a message board and it's a very different story.

[Zana]

As mentioned above, I generally agree with that statement, and (in my opinion) the bias observed in the fans is due to how the characters are portrayed.  Many players jump at the opportunity to join the wardens.  For them only exposure is Jory's death (once again, fully agree on Duncan's recruiting talent, or lack of thereof), and his death at Ostagar.  Loghain is portrayed as cold-hearted calculating jerk (he is!) who is out to get you (kinda is, you are on his way).  Problem is that since most gamers don't try to oppose Duncan in their conversations, they don't see that his personality is just as cold-hearted and calculated of a jerk as Loghain is. 

 

An interesting mental exercise.  Lets for a second imagine that Loghain does not betray the Cailan at battle at Ostigar.  However Cailan and Loghain both die as well as losing the majority of the forces stationed there.  Duncan survives, but loses all other Grey Wardens other than Alistair and Player.  Darkspawn are either temporarily repelled or barely break through.  Bottom line is that the fight is a draw for all intends and purposes.  Ferelden gets a short breather while new darkspawn march from Deep Roads, but the king is dead, so is his advisor.  Anora seizes power (as she would).  Duncan gets the position of the illusive man in ME2 - he gives you main game missions and sometimes tries to get you to do things the way he wants. 

 

Now the question:  What do you (as in readers of the board) think Duncan would pick for the major points of the story:  Dalish (Elves vs Warewolves), Dwarves (king + anvil status), Sacred Ashes (defile or not), Circle of Mages (Templars vs Mages), Redcliffe (Connor's fate, defense of the village), Denerim (Alienage), Denerim (Landsmeet) Archdemon fight (who takes final blow) and as a bonus Avernius' fate. 'Unknown' is a perfectly good answer if you feel that in a certain point you can't even venture a guess.  For example I have no idea if Duncan was a devoted Andrastian, which would greatly affect his choice in Ashes quest.

 

With your answers in mind (which will probably vary greatly), do you think this scenario would paint Duncan or Loghain in more favorable light.

 

Personal opinion:

Dalish: Either, the choice between the two is so far down the actual questline that at that point I am not sure Duncan would care about which of the two armies he'd get.  Lorewise Dalish are quite powerful, so I am not certain warewolves would be preferred considering they can barely control themselves.

Dwarves:  Bhalen as king, Anvil preserved

Sacred Ashes: Unknown, depends on how devoted of Andrastian Duncan is.

Circle of Mages: I suspect mages, if only because he seems to regard mages as more powerful (based on Mage origin, they sure don't feel that way in Archdemon fight though!)

Redcliffe: Isolde sacrificed to save Connor or Connor killed, village left to be destroyed as it does not benefit fight with the blight

Denerim: Slaver's offer accepted

Landsmeet: Place Alistair on the throne alone (useful puppet)

Archdemon: Dies himself or sacrifices the Player

Avernius: No restriction on research

 

I think in this scenario most would agree that Duncan is at best equivalent of Illusive Man from ME (pre-ME3) which is rarely seen as a benevolent character.  Only thing one would see of Loghain is that he hates the Orlais and dies fulfilling his duty.  Immediately the roles are reversed.

[congokong]

Yes, TIM shares that ruthless/dangerous "greater good" mentality of Loghain/Duncan.

 

I'd agree with you on all those choice scenarios pretty much. With the Dalish he'd probably side with Zathrian as the Dalish are more reliable allies. He'd leave the werewolves cursed because "nothing comes before the blight" in his mind. I wanted to strangle him for his indifference towards anything outside of his narrow objective of stopping the blight.

[AutumnWitch]

I liked Duncan fine....but some of the methods he has to employ to get recruits are "iffy" at best.

[congokong]

@Faerunner

 

Awakening/DA2 Warden abandonment being accepted it was one hell of a retcon. I never bought that they'd be able to keep the joining a secret from the world. Every Warden learns it when they join. It would get out over the centuries along with the other unnecessary secrets I think.

 

As for your devil's advocate stuff, none of it tries to explain why Duncan put so little effort into talking Jory down instead of killing him. "The blight is very important and that's all well and good but I just can't be bothered to try to convince you to grow a pair of balls, Jory. And quite frankly, your cowardice makes us all look bad so it'd be better for the Grey Warden image just to kill you." lol   Honestly, that's probably the real reason the writers had Duncan do what he did. It's more dramatic for Duncan to almost instantly resort to bloodshed than have a long talk with Jory only for him to do the ritual and die or then have Duncan resort to violence after failed convincing to keep his precious Grey Warden secrets.

[Lilaeth]

My only regret about Duncan is that my HN didn't get a chance to give him a good boot in the balls, before leaving to look for her brother!

[sylvanaerie]

As mentioned above, I generally agree with that statement, and (in my opinion) the bias observed in the fans is due to how the characters are portrayed.  Many players jump at the opportunity to join the wardens.  For them only exposure is Jory's death (once again, fully agree on Duncan's recruiting talent, or lack of thereof), and his death at Ostagar.  Loghain is portrayed as cold-hearted calculating jerk (he is!) who is out to get you (kinda is, you are on his way).  Problem is that since most gamers don't try to oppose Duncan in their conversations, they don't see that his personality is just as cold-hearted and calculated of a jerk as Loghain is. 

 

An interesting mental exercise.  Lets for a second imagine that Loghain does not betray the Cailan at battle at Ostigar.  However Cailan and Loghain both die as well as losing the majority of the forces stationed there.  Duncan survives, but loses all other Grey Wardens other than Alistair and Player.  Darkspawn are either temporarily repelled or barely break through.  Bottom line is that the fight is a draw for all intends and purposes.  Ferelden gets a short breather while new darkspawn march from Deep Roads, but the king is dead, so is his advisor.  Anora seizes power (as she would).  Duncan gets the position of the illusive man in ME2 - he gives you main game missions and sometimes tries to get you to do things the way he wants. 

 

Now the question:  What do you (as in readers of the board) think Duncan would pick for the major points of the story:  Dalish (Elves vs Warewolves), Dwarves (king + anvil status), Sacred Ashes (defile or not), Circle of Mages (Templars vs Mages), Redcliffe (Connor's fate, defense of the village), Denerim (Alienage), Denerim (Landsmeet) Archdemon fight (who takes final blow) and as a bonus Avernius' fate. 'Unknown' is a perfectly good answer if you feel that in a certain point you can't even venture a guess.  For example I have no idea if Duncan was a devoted Andrastian, which would greatly affect his choice in Ashes quest.

 

With your answers in mind (which will probably vary greatly), do you think this scenario would paint Duncan or Loghain in more favorable light.

 

Personal opinion:

Dalish: Either, the choice between the two is so far down the actual questline that at that point I am not sure Duncan would care about which of the two armies he'd get.  Lorewise Dalish are quite powerful, so I am not certain warewolves would be preferred considering they can barely control themselves.

Dwarves:  Bhalen as king, Anvil preserved

Sacred Ashes: Unknown, depends on how devoted of Andrastian Duncan is.

Circle of Mages: I suspect mages, if only because he seems to regard mages as more powerful (based on Mage origin, they sure don't feel that way in Archdemon fight though!)

Redcliffe: Isolde sacrificed to save Connor or Connor killed, village left to be destroyed as it does not benefit fight with the blight

Denerim: Slaver's offer accepted

Landsmeet: Place Alistair on the throne alone (useful puppet)

Archdemon: Dies himself or sacrifices the Player

Avernius: No restriction on research

 

I think in this scenario most would agree that Duncan is at best equivalent of Illusive Man from ME (pre-ME3) which is rarely seen as a benevolent character.  Only thing one would see of Loghain is that he hates the Orlais and dies fulfilling his duty.  Immediately the roles are reversed.

 

Pretty much this, I should think.  He pretty much epitomizes the "anything to fight the Blight" mentality.  Though I feel you picked some choices because they are morally gray (to downright evil) simply because they are the more gray choices, not considering the ripples of the scenario you suggest would have cascaded down to affect the outcome of the game.

 

I doubt he would have bothered with Avernus/Sophia at all as 'freeing an old castle--even a Grey Warden one--from the veil tears' would have little concern for him.  He'd have told Levi "Later, I have this more pressing Blight to take care of right now".  In fact, that's why Levi's come to the PC in the first place as Duncan had the blight to deal with and couldn't follow through on his promise to help Levi with his family issues.  Of course, we don't know about the demons and what not until we get there, but considering its hell and gone from anywhere inhabited, no one goes there and hasn't for centuries and rife with a bunch of demons, Duncan might file it in the 'come back and deal with this when I have more time/manpower' but I doubt he would have expended any more effort on the place during a blight once the dead start rising up and fighting him.

 

I doubt he'd care which dwarf is on the throne as long as he had his army (by the time I've played this game so much, I don't care much which one's in charge anymore).  Probably give Branka the anvil for more army.

 

Whether he even bothered to free Redcliffe from the demon once he saw what was happening there, would depend on how much he felt Eamon's army would be capable of fighting.  I could just as easily see him burn the village to the ground to prevent the darkspawn having any resources/spreading, and leaving the people in the castle to their fate.  Depending on the time table (which is admittedly pretty sketchy), this might not even be a problem since Jowan is sent to Redcliffe to poison Eamon by Loghain who is dead in your scenario.

 

I think he'd probably side with the Dalish, finding the werewolves too much a loose cannon, and the treaty is with the Dalish, the werewolves are under no such obligation.  The mages might be saved IF there are enough left to save, as you point out, he does seem to feel mages are very powerful against darkspawn and as troop support.

 

There would have been no slavers in Denerim with Loghain not around to sell the elves.  And with Loghain dead, Anora would have had the support of the nobles and there would have been no civil war bleeding their manpower/resources to precipitate the Tevinters being in the Alienage.

 

He would not have placed Alistair on the throne alone, wouldn't have bothered with the Landsmeet at all.  For one, I do believe he cared for Alistair, but more to the point, wasting a third of their resources by putting a 'puppet on the throne' wouldn't have been of a concern to him if Anora supported the fight against the Blight.  If Anora (who would be sitting as queen) didn't support his effort to end the Blight, he'd have packed Alistair and the PC up and gone to the border to reconnoiter with the Orlesian wardens and let Ferelden burn if they were too stupid to deal with the blight.  Remember Duncan, unlike the PC and Alistair knows about how an Archdemon dies.  He won't waste even one warden fighting a losing battle or placing them on a throne they don't need to be on.

 

This is why those who argue that "Duncan would have recruited Loghain" in the game make me laugh.  It never would have reached that point.  Duncan would have left Loghain and Ferelden to burn while he and what Grey Wardens he could gather joined the others at the border and made plans to stop the darkspawn once they got done with destroying Ferelden.  Their numbers were just too few and he wouldn't have risked the three left alive trying to oppose a man too stupid to realize what the real threat was.

 

*Edit* As to who would take the final blow, in all likelihood, he would have since he was senior and he does say if the Archdemon is spotted in Ostagar, for Alistair and the PC to remain with the tower, no heroics.  It is the duty/honor of the senior warden present to kill the Archdemon and definitely would have done so if he were able since he knew he wasn't far from his own Calling (as Alistair will tell the PC Duncan informed him he would be doing after the Blight was dealt with if he had survived to that point).

[Zana]

Good points, I will definitely agree on the final blow (both Duncan and Riordan imply that senior wardens go first on final blow).

 

With regards to others I think we can have an interesting discussion:

 

While I am also leaning toward Duncan picking Dalish, I cannot discount him picking warewolves either.  Yes, they are not reliable in the long term, but Duncan is completely preoccupied with darkspawn threat.  After the Blight, he won't care if WWs go berzerk - their usefulness will be at an end (in contrast to dwarves, who fight darkspawn regardless of blight status).  If you force his hand to conscript you, it is unlikely you can be viewed as a reliable recruit, more like a means to a fairly immideate end.  Heck a rogue mage that works outside of rules to support a blood mage would rarely be considered reliable either.  But sufficient to boost forces at Ostagar, so you get recruited (that, and the railroad plot). 

 

I think that while Duncan was certainly hell bent on stoping the Blight, given a chance he would try to reclaim Soldier's peak.  It does provide at least some strongpoint in Ferelden.  However, I do conceede that he would not do so before the end of the blight - Levi Dryden explicitly said that Duncan promised to help but...he obviously did not consider it to be a priority, so it is not known if it would become one after Ostagar either.

 

With regards to redcliffe...from strategic point of view, player is protecting a bunch of civilians, so even if they all die, only thing that would do is possibly lower morale of Redcliffe's troops.  While feasable that Duncan would care about it (high morale is useful), I would think that he would not jeopardize the remainder of the Wardens trying to save the village, and let it burn.

 

The interesting twist to the suggested timeline is what would happen between Anora and the Wardens.  The biggest reason for the civil war seemed to be not only what Loghain was doing, but the fact that he installed himself as Regent.  Has he died at Ostagar and throne remained occupied by Anora, she would have no reason to poison Eamon (he did not like Loghain as regent and the fact that he lived while Cailan died), which would prevent Connor from turning into abomination and cutting off the entirety of Redcliffe arc, and (as a rightful ruler) would not alienate the banns, thus making the majority of the Denerim arc moot as well.  So yeah, this whole part was fairly hypothetical!  With that said, I believe Anora is very much her father's daughter.  If she had to take actions Loghain has taken, she would in a heartbeat.  Only difference is that she'd do it with much more finesse.

 

One thing I will disagree on is Orzimmar's king.  I do believe that Bhelen would be chosen as he explicitly states that darkspawn are a priority.  Yes, he is a power-hungry ruthless tyrant, but he cares about his people (if not for their rules) and fully realizes that darkspawn threaten their existence.  Harrowmont while noble and willing to provide the army as obliged by the rules, is too bound by the said rules to make drastic changes that dwarves need to survive.  And unlike most, Duncan should be well aware that if dwarves fall, life on the surface will become much less pleasant.  While Blight is priority, Duncan is likely to realize that in long term, Bhelen would be more beneficial to the cause overall.

 

I am also not certain if Duncan would abandon Ferelden to burn.  If an option is whether to make an attempt the stop the blight now by gathering an army or run to the hills and prepare to contain a fully expanded blight, I think the optimal choice would really be...both.  Which is what bothers me - you, as Warden, never actually care to send a missive to other GWs.  Have you done so, by the time you got to the battle of Denerim (full year if I believe?), you'd have more than 3 GWs against the archdeamon.  Anyhow, the Fifth blight is unique in that you can try stopping it before it turns into another global war of attrition like the privous blights did.  Note that Riordan was willing to make a stand with only two new recruits and a (fairly) ragtag army.  Granted, Riordan is not Duncan, but if the stand is not made, you lose the Dalish (or WWs), the Circle and Redcliffe army - their lands would be overrun. There is no reason to waste an opportunity to gather armies and strike at Denerim, the only question is whether you would need to depose Loghain to do so or not.

[Kenshen]

Someone has probably mentioned this already so if this is just a repeat ignore.  While I don't care for Duncan or how we went about GW busniess it isn't like he had a lot to work with and was running out of time.  He knew he wasn't going to get any Orlesian help or that help was going to be greatly delayed.  He even claims time is running short so I don't get why he goes on the recruitment trip around the land which would have taken a month or more.  I find this even more puzzling considering the King was very enthralled with everything GW, it seems to me all Duncan would have to do is ask the King for 10-20 men/women and have them do the ritual.  Duncan wanted the allstars out there and he was only able to recruit 1.  Or is it that he doesn't visit all the other places if you don't pick them as the origin?

[sylvanaerie]

Well, in regards to abandoning Ferelden to its fate, that was only if Anora (for whatever reason) did not support his efforts.  He would have to fight and deal with all the crap that the PC had to put up with and I think instead of risking the 3 Grey Wardens left in the country trying to deal with someone powerful opposing them, he would cut his losses and regroup with the Order at the border.  But, in your scenario, Loghain is dead, so there would be no need for the Landsmeet or a lot of the other hoops the PC had to go through to get to dealing with the real problem instead of Loghain's bullsh*t, and I don't believe Anora would have been as difficult with Duncan/the PC as Loghain was.  Especially if she's the one 'large and in charge'.

 

The reason I say he wouldn't care about which dwarf sits on the throne is, you don't get to even speak to Bhelen till after you do his smear campaign.  And he isn't addressing the darkspawn at that time, only talks about the Carta and eliminating enemies and how he has to be king to deal with the darkspawn.  Harrowmont does the same, except to get involved in Bhelen's side, you have to go delving into the deep roads.  Is he willing to go down in there with his few companions playing Bhelen's messenger boy just to go on a slander campaign against his opponent?  Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't.  Maybe he would take the path of least resistance and go for the provings instead.  At least the goal isn't to kill your opponents there, less risk.  I still stand by the "I don't think Duncan really cares about one more than the other", as neither of them want to deal with the Blight till after they are king.

 

I picked the Dalish because they are the more reliable resource because that's who the treaty is with.  Duncan's top priority is the blight and killing a potential resource just to satisfy revenge against them by an enemy he might be able to recruit is counterproductive.  Of course, we all know, as players in the game, they are recruitable, but Duncan doesn't.  He can't 'metagame'.

[sylvanaerie]

Someone has probably mentioned this already so if this is just a repeat ignore.  While I don't care for Duncan or how we went about GW busniess it isn't like he had a lot to work with and was running out of time.  He knew he wasn't going to get any Orlesian help or that help was going to be greatly delayed.  He even claims time is running short so I don't get why he goes on the recruitment trip around the land which would have taken a month or more.  I find this even more puzzling considering the King was very enthralled with everything GW, it seems to me all Duncan would have to do is ask the King for 10-20 men/women and have them do the ritual.  Duncan wanted the allstars out there and he was only able to recruit 1.  Or is it that he doesn't visit all the other places if you don't pick them as the origin?

 

The Origin character is the only one he is able to reach in time to recruit.  So all the others die (or suffer similar fates).

[DinkyD]

Yes, TIM shares that ruthless/dangerous "greater good" mentality of Loghain/Duncan.

 

I'd agree with you on all those choice scenarios pretty much. With the Dalish he'd probably side with Zathrian as the Dalish are more reliable allies. He'd leave the werewolves cursed because "nothing comes before the blight" in his mind. I wanted to strangle him for his indifference towards anything outside of his narrow objective of stopping the blight.

 

I don't know how indifferent he really is though. I haven't played many of the Origins, but from what I understand if he stands back it's because he doesn't want to get involved in politics or situations that might compromise the Wardens or their neutrality. On that premise, why would he not help the werewolves, as it won't annoy anyone powerful or be be seen as a political interference? That assumes of course, he knows for sure that he still get the Dalish help.

 

It's interesting to ponder how much they are the same. Duncan and Loghain do differ as to the scale of the rationality and desirability of their goals. Loghain prizes the independence of Ferelden above all else – how much this relates to Ferelden as some abstract idea of nationhood or how much it relates to actual concern for the suffering and chances of its actual citizens is unclear. It's about his country however, HIS fellow citizens and not losing the country again HE worked to free. In the great scale of things, the independence of one nation doesn't matter all that much.

 

Stopping a Blight however could be seen as THE ultimate goal of goals– as if the Warden's fail, they'll be no Ferelden, no Orlais, no independence from anything; only nothing – everything's dead.

 

Does the sheer magnitude of the goal excuse Duncan? Is saving everything the ultimate good, a goal so objective in its universal desirability that those kind of moral compromises become not only acceptable, but also necessary? That even the slightest Risk of failure must be avoided?

 

Could one particular goal be of such a different kind that demands a whole different kind of morality? I don't know. But I find it fascinating to think about.

 

This is why those who argue that "Duncan would have recruited Loghain" in the game make me laugh.  It never would have reached that point.  Duncan would have left Loghain and Ferelden to burn while he and what Grey Wardens he could gather joined the others at the border and made plans to stop the darkspawn once they got done with destroying Ferelden.  Their numbers were just too few and he wouldn't have risked the three left alive trying to oppose a man too stupid to realize what the real threat was.

 

*Edit* As to who would take the final blow, in all likelihood, he would have since he was senior and he does say if the Archdemon is spotted in Ostagar, for Alistair and the PC to remain with the tower, no heroics.  It is the duty/honor of the senior warden present to kill the Archdemon and definitely would have done so if he were able since he knew he wasn't far from his own Calling (as Alistair will tell the PC Duncan informed him he would be doing after the Blight was dealt with if he had survived to that point).

 

I don't think Duncan would necessarily recruit Loghain even if it got that far. Why would a man that concerns himself with the image and public acceptability of the Wardens, recruit a man that is a slaver, a tyrant, and a regicide in front of the entire Landsmeet? If he was willing to abandon Ferelden, an extra Warden in Ferelden isn't worth the bad PR. Not a good idea to let it be so public that you are willing to recruit anyone just to keep your numbers up. Remember how reluctant Loghain was to let in Chevaliers? Leaders might become similarly wary of the Grey Wardens following reverlations like that.

 

There's a line of Riorden's when you ask at Redciffe after the Landsmeet "how do we kill the archdemon anyway" or words to that effect. Riorden says something like iirc "oh, you don't know.. you're new..of course Duncan wouldn't have expected....". So yes, I think a senior Warden would have killed it, and the new recruits wouldn't have even been in the front line.

[Lavaeolus]

I don't think Duncan would necessarily recruit Loghain even if it got that far. Why would a man that concerns himself with the image and public acceptability of the Wardens, recruit a man that is a slaver, a tyrant, and a regicide in front of the entire Landsmeet?

Half of Ferelden doesn't believe these accusations, a large part of it is probably excusingly saying "Oh I'm sure there must be some sort of reason", and others beyond all else view him as the Hero of River Dane -- the one who freed Ferelden from the dreaded Orlesians! Yes, he's a slaver, viewed a tyrant, and whether he's specifically regicidal or not could fuel a million overly long forum threads, but sometimes those are the breaks. The Hero of Ferelden, after all, can set werewolves loose on the world, gleefully murder people for almost no reason at all, and also just generally be a douche when people are talking to him, but nobody is gonna stop shouting their praises for a good long while -- rightly or wrongly.

 

There's some story breaks for the protagonist, admittedly, but the game pretty much tells you Loghain becomes a legend if you let him sacrifice himself. And since Duncan could very well be keeping him for the sake of "well, need to feed him to the Archdemon", maybe that'll cross his mind. Or maybe not. Honestly, I'd expect recruiting Loghain would get you a grumbles from a lot of people, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as implied by his recent actions.

 

Still, Duncan might not recruit Loghain for other reasons -- but he'd probably choose not to for very different reasons than Alistair suggests. Riordan gives the better pitch to someone like Duncan, though it doesn't mean it's actually the right route for his views.

[DinkyD]

Half of Ferelden doesn't believe these accusations, a large part of it is probably excusingly saying "Oh I'm sure there must be some sort of reason", and others beyond all else view him as the Hero of River Dane -- the one who freed Ferelden from the dreaded Orlesians! Yes, he's a slaver, viewed a tyrant, and whether he's specifically regicidal or not could fuel a million overly long forum threads, but sometimes those are the breaks. The Hero of Ferelden, after all, can set werewolves loose on the world, gleefully murder people for almost no reason at all, and also just generally be a douche when people are talking to him, but nobody is gonna stop shouting their praises for a good long while -- rightly or wrongly.

 

There's some story breaks for the protagonist, admittedly, but the game pretty much tells you Loghain becomes a legend if you let him sacrifice himself. And since Duncan could very well be keeping him for the sake of "well, need to feed him to the Archdemon", maybe that'll cross his mind. Or maybe not. Honestly, I'd expect recruiting Loghain would get you a grumbles from a lot of people, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as implied by his recent actions.

 

Still, Duncan might not recruit Loghain for other reasons -- but he'd probably choose not to for very different reasons than Alistair suggests. Riordan gives the better pitch to someone like Duncan, though it doesn't mean it's actually the right route for his views.

 

Even if half don't believe, what about the rest? And what the pc does isn't public knowledge. Loghain is controversal.

 

Besides, what he is actually guilty of or perceived to be guilty of becomes pretty irrelevant given that your pc has spent the prior part of the Landsmeet accusing him of terrible crimes, and then you go and recruit him? Sends a pretty bad message, even to those who might not be opposed to Loghain per se. So the Warden's think him a regicide and slaver, yet they will recruit him. Well, well.....

[Zana]

Eh, what does Duncan care.  He is equally willing to recruit teryrn's child who at that point might be the only heir (pissing off nobility) as he is to an unrepentant blood mage sympathizer (pissing off chantry) or a elf murderer (pissing off..well mostly nobility, but in a very different way!). He really doesn't seem to give a damn about anything other than Blight.  At that point in the story killing Loghain is a waste.  Its either kill him or have him join the Wardens.  First one placates Alistair (who would never object to a word Duncan says anyway), and gives some finality to the confrontation.  Second gives you a valuable (considering the number of active wardens in Ferelden) asset for AD fight.  If anything, I am slightly surprised that a chunk of Warden's party wasn't offered a Joining at that point.  Not that I could actually think of anyone who would accept. Maybe Leliana and Sten as both are doing this out of desire to stop the Blight.  Oghren is another possibility.  Zevran and Morrigan have their own agenda, Shale is a golem, Wynn would not survive the joining

[Lavaeolus]

Even if half don't believe, what about the rest? And what the pc does isn't public knowledge. Loghain is controversal.

 

Besides, what he is actually guilty of or perceived to be guilty of becomes pretty irrelevant given that your pc has spent the prior part of the Landsmeet accusing him of terrible crimes, and then you go and recruit him? Sends a pretty bad message, even to those who might not be opposed to Loghain per se. So the Warden's think him a regicide and slaver, yet they will recruit him. Well, well.....

Most people will seriously just handwave it and say "well, at least he saw the error of his ways and is helping now". He's the Hero of River Dane -- there are people who will just be glad to see him alive, even if he announces that he's just returned from the puppy-punting contest (which is probably a really big deal in Ferelden, where dogs are practically sacred). Indeed, they do, if he goes out with a bang against the Archdemon.

 

Is it fair? Is it entirely logical? *shrugs* People want their heroes.

 

Not that I could actually think of anyone who would accept. Maybe Leliana and Sten as both are doing this out of desire to stop the Blight.  Oghren is another possibility.  Zevran and Morrigan have their own agenda, Shale is a golem, Wynn would not survive the joining

Eh, Wynne not surviving is something of an assumption. I don't expect her to be prime candidate material, but that spirit apparently keeps her alive for years after Origins, it might even be able to save her life when she drinks the poison. Plus, we don't really know how the Joining even works. Still, she is an extremely old woman who goes on about being ready to die now any time soon. Bit of egg on your face if you go "Yes, you survived the Joining, hallelujah!" only for her a week later to drop dead of old age.

 

Sten still has a duty to the Qun and the Arishok, so if you got him his greatsword back making him a Grey Warden might bring problems. Oghren's probably the best bet, considering he actually can become a Warden in the expansion.

[sylvanaerie]

Actually, this entire hypothetical scenario would make a pretty interesting AU fanfiction I think.

[Aren]

Duncan is an hero he put his life in danger for Ferelden only to save others life, this is the reason of why he have not told about the US to Alistair, he was ready to pay even that price.

[evgenija28]

I agree with you OP, with every point you made. I played Human Noble origin the most and the way Duncan recruited the Cousland is quite disgusting to me honestly. Like, Bryce is dying on the floor, mother is about to commit suicide, their kid is standing there trying to comprehend how did it come to this and what to do next (not to mention that Oren and Oriana are also slaughtered) - the entire family ruined, and then Duncan goes "I must ask something in return." And it's not like he didn't know that you could die from the joining - he very much did, so he was pretty much ready to kill the last of the Cousland line in a manner of days, no time for justice to be served. And if they are ready to sacrifice everything for the greater good - then the greater good is lost there. For me it is not only important to fight for the right things, it is to keep in mind the entire time there is a limit, to not do bad for the good for the good is then corrupted. That's why I personally don't like his character, but we are all entitled to our own opinion.