114 réponses à ce sujet

[dwilson031]

     The events of ME1 take place less than 30 years after first contact with the Turians.  Yet in this short amount of time the alliance has gained enough power to rival the council, and by the end of the game (if the player chooses) completely replace them.  To me this one fact takes away a large amount of enjoyment from what is otherwise a fantastic game.
     Lets look at the council.  It's comprised of three species each specializing in the arguably three most important components of a powerful government: diplomacy, espionage, and military strength.  The addition of the newest species to the council, the Turians, occured 1200 years ago.  The alliance, on the other hand, discovered Prothean technology in 2148, a mere 35 years before the events of ME1.  Yet wherever you go in the ME universe, humanity seems to make up a majority of the population.  And despite appearing at first to be a Jack-of-all-Trades, they appear able to rival each of the council species in their individual fields of expertise.
     Three years after discovering Prothean technology they are able to recapture a colony from the Turians.  A colony that was only lost due to a surprise attack, taken back from a species whose whole society revolves around the military.  Described in the first novel, which takes place around ten years after first contact, the alliance ambassador completey dominates the council after it's discovered the Alliance has been tampering in AI technology.  The ambassador is completely able to disregard the punishment decided by the council and is able to arrange the proverbial slap on the wrist instead.  Finally, the way Cerebus is represented in the second novel, and ME1 it seems that the Alliance's espionage skills already rival the Salarians.

[GreenDragon37]

I kinda wondered about that, but I think it's because humanity is so diverse and goal driven. Their diversity works as a strength as well as a weakness. They also have experience fighting themselves since the beginning, so it makes since that they would have a pretty singificant military force, though not enough at the time of first contact to wage full scale war.

[kaff33nd]

lol - wait til you see Cerberus in ME2!

[GreenDragon37]

kaff33nd wrote...

lol - wait til you see Cerberus in ME2!

LOL, true. It amazes me how Cerberus manages to have all of this influence, even in the first game, if you played all of the assignments, they were everywhere!. My main character is a paragon Shep, and I think he will but heads with Cerberus for their extreme, racist, pro-human agenda. ME2 is gonna be so fun.

[FFLB]

Well, the codex entries do a fairly good job of giving you bits of detail to show the areas that humans excel at in comparison to the other species, such as military tactics, technology, etc. When you consider how the Turians form battle ranks and wage wars methodically, and then compare that to the description for humans and how they can employ varied tactics and follow Sun Tzu's maxim of "those who defend everything, defend nothing", you can begin to see how the difference in military ideals and doctrines allowed the Alliance to win over a much more powerful Turian force.



IIRC, It's also mentioned that the technology of Citadel species seems to progress rather slowly compared to way human technology seems to progress in leaps and bounds.



I feel that while the races in Mass Effect were more... "human" and relate-able, they still seemed to suffer from being somewhat one-dimensional. Although, that could just be because the information that we get is from an Alliance perspective, so it's biased in favor of humans. Maybe whenever we do actually come into contact with another intelligent lifeform outside of this planet, we'll be able to better discern our differences and similarities, but until then, we're only going to have a human perspective.



And yes, I too was surprised at how widespread humans have become within that short span of time. Enough so that they're prominent even in mercenary and criminal bands.

[dwilson031]

I just think moving all events following the discovery of Prothean technology on Mars back a few hundred years would have made the story more believeable. It seems to me that as fast as humanity rose, both in size and power, compared to the rest of the species, combined with their obvious thirst for power, would cause the rest of the galaxy to view them along the same lines as the Rachni or Krogans, and react accordingly.

[InvaderErl]

I COMPLETELY AGREE. This is the major point where I think Mass Effect stumbles as a cohesive universe.

That the Alliance is a military power of any sort is simply insane giving the relative lack of time to advance in and its very recent state of total isolation.

Were the Turians doing nothing all of these centuries, they just built generation one space ships and decided to forgo researching better shields/stronger hulls and new technologies? Ridiculous. An Alliance warship verses a Turian one should be the equivalent of a Civil War era Steam Ship blasting away at a modern day Battleship.

What the hell were the Batarians doing all this time? How weak were they that they were unable to resist a species which had only uncovered its first Prothean ruin within the last century?

And that Humans are so insistent on being players on the galactic scene so soon after having just been discovered honestly makes them one of the least likeable races in the game imo.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 07:59 .

[Intelwolves]

Just look how fast and far we have gotten in 100 years. From No flight to building stealth aircraft and some aircraft that can lift almost 100 tons. So, if we could find data its possible. Unlikely, all be it, but possible.



Dwilson, I can see your point and I do agree, but thats if it is in language we can even understand and if there are events such as a war over the tech and how big it is.

[InvaderErl]

Its not the rate of advance that bothers me but the rate of advance in comparison to other races. They would have had to have been literally doing nothing in all this time for Alliance to tech to be comparable to theirs at the time of the First Contact War. In a galaxy as prone to conflict as the Mass Effect one that seems unlikely.

[Hatire]

Perhaps the lack of progress with the other races could be attributed to the lack of actual conflict for the species themselves. From everything I remember, once the Krogan rebellions were put down, there was not a full scale military engagement again. The Council left the Quarians to their fate and intervened in the First Contact War, as well as ignoring the raids by the Terminus Systems. Without any new mass conflict, why would they believe they need to do mass upgrading to their current tech?

[dwilson031]

I agree with InvaderErl. Technology is still advancing because the Normandy is a new prototype ship. Turians had been part of the council for 1200 years, plus you would think they get access to Asari technology, who discovered the Citadel almost 3000 years ago making them even more advanced.

[Mecha_Gandhi]

given sources/help/information its typical for a lesser advanced "being" to exponentially progress (and keep progressing) than an already advanced "being". the financial markets are a testament to that.



also, its not like the humans in the game didnt borrow ideas from the council races.

[InvaderErl]

Hatire wrote...

Perhaps the lack of progress with the other races could be attributed to the lack of actual conflict for the species themselves. From everything I remember, once the Krogan rebellions were put down, there was not a full scale military engagement again. The Council left the Quarians to their fate and intervened in the First Contact War, as well as ignoring the raids by the Terminus Systems. Without any new mass conflict, why would they believe they need to do mass upgrading to their current tech?

Assuming this was the case, even those initial contacts should have advanced Citadal technologies along past the point of the fledgling Alliance.

This is even carried through to the end where after the battle if Renegade and Humanity basically takes control of the Council somehow the other races are cool with this. Its insane to think that the Turians/Asari and Salarians would take this new status quo lying down and not send a combined military fleet to restore control.

[FFLB]

Well, when you consider that during those 3000 years the Citadel species didn't attempt any major studies of the Citadel nor the Keepers, but instead made it illegal to hinder the Keepers, you can sort of get an idea of why they seem more stagnant than the Alliance.



I'd like to see more info about the "novel" technologies of humanity though. I can only remember Medi-gel as being an invention that was created by a human company. There must certainly be more.

[dwilson031]

[quote]InvaderErl wrote...

[quote]This is even carried through to the end where after the battle if Renegade and Humanity basically takes control of the Council somehow the other races are cool with this. Its insane to think that the Turians/Asari and Salarians would take this new status quo lying down and not send a combined military fleet to restore control.

[/quote]

Exactly.  In fact one would assume they would already know who would fill in in the event the council was incapacitated.  Similar to us with the president.

[InvaderErl]

See, this is what I mean by Humanity's rise to power as being a stumbling block for the universe. The game essentially says all of the other races are idiots. I think during the inspection Shep mentions that humanity introduced fighter carriers to the galaxy. Am I really supposed to believe that only humans have ever had the idea to create a ship from which fighters would be launched? Really, in all those many centuries of bloody conflict nobody considered it?

If they had pushed the time between the First Contact War and the start of the game farther apart by let's say a century - then it would have been far more believable.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[Ezohiguma]

Humans have a high reproduction rate.



At the end of the game, if the player choses that path, the council fleet already took one hell of a pounding by the geth. And we only see the council fleet that is at the Citadel, but no word on the ships defending the homeworlds of the different species. They wouldn't move all ships to the Citadel, that'd open their homeworlds to attack. The humans take control in that one scenario because the council was wiped out and what is still in and around the Citadel is what the geth left standing, which isn't much.



Same with combined fleet to kick humans out. Where'd the ships come from? Homeworld defense and that would be a bad move, since buggers like the batarians are only waiting to cause problems. Also, the geth are still out there.



And let's not forget, who saved the galacy?



Humans.

[FFLB]

I wouldn't chalk it up to the reproduction rate. The codex mentions that less than 3% of all humans enter into the service. It's less than all of the other species, yet the Alliance is still very powerful and effective.

[dwilson031]

But the humans were the only ones crazy enough to live near the Veil. The other species worlds should be fairly safe. Plus if the human reproductive rate was that much higher then the rest of the species we'd be viewed like the Krogan and have to be controlled.

The humans, who live in the most dangerous part of Citadel space, have ships to spare after 30 years but the Council doesn't after 3000?

[dwilson031]

FFLB wrote...

I wouldn't chalk it up to the reproduction rate. The codex mentions that less than 3% of all humans enter into the service. It's less than all of the other species, yet the Alliance is still very powerful and effective.

Which also doesn't make any since.  When nations start the percent of people in the military is usually higher not lower.  When America was young every able bodied man was at least part of a militia.  Given the alliance's young age, the dangerous location of it's colonies, and it's desire to expand it's territory and power, the number should be much higher than 3%

[pacer90]

You only have to look at real life, like another poster said. With the rate that humans adapt and evolve their tech and strategies it's no wonder we would be the dominant species.



My iPhone has more technology in it than NASA had only 20 years ago. Think about that, I can buy one out of the money I make in 2 days work.

[pacer90]

to add to my post I forgot to say imagine if we found reaper tech, how would our society go after that? We'd be jumping forward 400 years not 200 like Anderson said.

[InvaderErl]

Ezohiguma wrote...

Humans have a high reproduction rate.

We do? I remember the Salarians have a low one but I got the impression that the Turians had about an equal one to ours. Somebody care to look at a codex? I could be wrong on this accord.

It doesn't really matter though, there is a treaty that the Alliance has to follow maintaining an inferior number of ships in comparison to their Citadel counterparts.

Ezohiguma wrote...
At the end of the game, if the player choses that path, the council fleet already took one hell of a pounding by the geth. And we only see the council fleet that is at the Citadel, but no word on the ships defending the homeworlds of the different species. They wouldn't move all ships to the Citadel, that'd open their homeworlds to attack. The humans take control in that one scenario because the council was wiped out and what is still in and around the Citadel is what the geth left standing, which isn't much.

The Council fleet is not the the combined might of Turian, Asari and Salarian fleets. We also know that not even the entire Council fleet was present as many of them had been sent throughout the relay network to guard entry points into Citadel space.

It was a bloody nose sure but I would argue militarily it was even less devastating than what the American forces suffered at Pearl Harbor.

Ezohiguma wrote...
Same with combined fleet to kick humans out. Where'd the ships come from? Homeworld defense and that would be a bad move, since buggers like the batarians are only waiting to cause problems. Also, the geth are still out there.

In the codex concerning the end of the First Contact War it says the Council had to stop the Turians from going completely postal on our asses. The Turian Military is larger and more well equipped than the Alliance one, whatever losses they took at the Citadel would not have been devastating.

Ezohiguma wrote...
And let's not forget, who saved the galacy?

Humans.

If Turian or Asari forces had been in range and arrived they would have done the same.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 08:59 .

[dwilson031]

pacer90 wrote...

You only have to look at real life, like another poster said. With the rate that humans adapt and evolve their tech and strategies it's no wonder we would be the dominant species.

My iPhone has more technology in it than NASA had only 20 years ago. Think about that, I can buy one out of the money I make in 2 days work.

But each of the species started out just like humans.  The dominant species on their own planet.  They were just as dominant on their own planets as humans were on earth.  I don't mind bioware making humans the dominant species, i just would have rather had it as humans as the Jordan Era Bulls, and the rest of the species the remaining teams in the NBA.  Not humans as the Bulls and the rest of the species as Little League Teams

[InvaderErl]

pacer90 wrote...

to add to my post I forgot to say imagine if we found reaper tech, how would our society go after that? We'd be jumping forward 400 years not 200 like Anderson said.

See this is the thinking in Mass Effect that bothers me. The Humans are awesomesauce and the aliens are totally inept at handling their own affairs apparently. Its not like the Turians/Asari or Salarians got into space on their own, advanced on their own or became military powers on their own. Nope, they're old and slow-witted.