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[dwilson031]

InvaderErl wrote...

See this is the thinking in Mass Effect that bothers me. The Humans are awesomesauce and the aliens are totally inept at handling their own affairs apparently. Its not like the Turians/Asari or Salarians got into space on their own, advanced on their own or became military powers on their own. Nope, they're old and slow-witted.

Couln't agree more

[FFLB]

As I mentioned, that makes them seem one-dimensional, but because we've got nothing to really compare them to besides other human beings, we sort of just have to accept it, since we ourselves are viewing it from a human perspective.

[DigitalBrute]

"They see humanity as something of a bully". We builled those dirty batarians... collectors.. your next!. I agree though the alliance power over the universe literally jumped forward 200 years.

[Decan 187]

Time is not really the factor, it's drive and will. Look at America's drive to world power in less than 200 years, when China had more than 3000 years of history.

[dwilson031]

Decan 187 wrote...

Time is not really the factor, it's drive and will. Look at America's drive to world power in less than 200 years, when China had more than 3000 years of history.

Yes but America didn't due it in 30 years.  During that time America was struggling to survive as a country.  Also Colonial americans came from Europe and had access to all their technology.  It's not as if America was just by itself 3000 years behind the times, found a piece of Chinese technology, and then took over.

[dwilson031]

FFLB wrote...

As I mentioned, that makes them seem one-dimensional, but because we've got nothing to really compare them to besides other human beings, we sort of just have to accept it, since we ourselves are viewing it from a human perspective.

I know it seems that way because when forming the council each species has taken up a specific role, but when looking at the codex you see that they're not that one-dimensional. The Asari have soldiers, the Turians have diplomats etc.

[Decan 187]

Yes but as our tech advances it grows faster, look at the last hundred compared to before it. then at the last 50 to the last 100, even the last year to before that. plus factor in the aliens culture, we don't know how they advance, the turians might be too traditional to try new things, asari too peaceful, we just can't understand their mind set. because we are not them.

[Myrmedus]

Liara hints at this nicely in ME1 when you talk to her and she offers a possible reason for why humans appear to be developing so fast. You discuss it with her when she talks about finding it difficult to speak to humans, and she tells you that many of the other species find humans intimidating because they're so goal driven and in a state of rush: both Shepard and her offer the reason that it's because our lives are so short relative to the other sentient species.



Because we live such short lives we want to accomplish something within that relatively short amount of time, making us progress at a fast rate. In addition, we also have a high reproduction rate to account for those short lives resulting in a high amount of diversification, population increase and arguably evolution. As an example through parallel, take Liara again as an example: she appears to be the only child of Benezia, an Asari who has lived most of her life so is probably around 800-900 years old. Think about if that were an 800-900 human...she probably would've had 20 children by that age!



The other species generally seem to be calmer and more 'settled', meaning their progression is more linear whereas ours is almost exponential. Our rate of advancement is high but we also reproduce quickly which just adds to that already high rate of advancement - we operate in a state of rush...this is probably what allows us to outrace them.



What's ironic is that, at least in terms of augmentation, general technology and our own abilities, I expect that in reality we'll actually be further advanced as a species by 2148 than humans are in Mass Effect. I say 'general technology' because I omit Mass Effect-like technology from that opinion

[dwilson031]

Decan 187 wrote...

Yes but as our tech advances it grows faster, look at the last hundred compared to before it. then at the last 50 to the last 100, even the last year to before that. plus factor in the aliens culture, we don't know how they advance, the turians might be too traditional to try new things, asari too peaceful, we just can't understand their mind set. because we are not them.

Yes technology advances exponetially the further it comes along.  So while humans were advancing in those three years after discovering prothean technology prior to the First Contact War, with the 1200 year head start the Turians would be advancing exponetially faster.

[Decan 187]

although you do have a very valid point, there shuold be next to no humans in criminal organizations, and we sure as hell shouldn't be in charge of them. (I'm refering to the quest with helena blake)

[Decan 187]

As far as how fast a culture advances is up to them, we have bushmen that live in hutts in Africa that were around long ago. We also have scientist that work on theroretical physics in America, a country that is now were near as old

[InvaderErl]

Decan 187 wrote...

Yes but as our tech advances it grows
faster, look at the last hundred compared to before it. then at the
last 50 to the last 100, even the last year to before that. plus factor
in the aliens culture, we don't know how they advance, the turians
might be too traditional to try new things, asari too peaceful, we just
can't understand their mind set. because we are not them.

But the fact that the these races were able to get into space indicates some kind of ability for original and creative thinking. They can't surely be so rigid and stoic that they lack the ability for technological advancement over the centuries upon centuries that they've been lounging around.

80 years of development surely cannot equal the centuries upon centuries that these races have been zipping around, a little over 30 of which were done in total isolation.

dwilson031 wrote...

I know it seems that way because when forming the council each species has taken up a specific role, but when looking at the codex you see that they're not that one-dimensional. The Asari have soldiers, the Turians have diplomats etc.

Not to mention the supposedly peaceful Asari built a massive freaking dreadnaught that they routinely showed off in the form of the Destiny Ascension.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:43 .

[InvaderErl]

Myrmedus wrote...



Liara hints at this nicely in ME1 when you talk to her and she offers a possible reason for why humans appear to be developing so fast. You discuss it with her when she talks about finding it difficult to speak to humans, and she tells you that many of the other species find humans intimidating because they're so goal driven and in a state of rush: both Shepard and her offer the reason that it's because our lives are so short relative to the other sentient species.

The Salarians live shorter lives than the average Human and therefore should be MORE driven than us.

[dwilson031]

Myrmedus wrote...

Because we live such short lives we want to accomplish something within that relatively short amount of time, making us progress at a fast rate. In addition, we also have a high reproduction rate to account for those short lives resulting in a high amount of diversification, population increase and arguably evolution. As an example through parallel, take Liara again as an example: she appears to be the only child of Benezia, an Asari who has lived most of her life so is probably around 800-900 years old. Think about if that were an 800-900 human...she probably would've had 20 children by that age!

The salarians live shorter than us, sleep one hour a day, have high reproductive rate (a dozen eggs a year), higher metabolism, and their military doctrine is similar to ours.  Shouldn't they be the dominant species.

[InvaderErl]

Exactly.

[Myrmedus]

dwilson031 wrote...

Decan 187 wrote...

Yes but as our tech advances it grows faster, look at the last hundred compared to before it. then at the last 50 to the last 100, even the last year to before that. plus factor in the aliens culture, we don't know how they advance, the turians might be too traditional to try new things, asari too peaceful, we just can't understand their mind set. because we are not them.

Yes technology advances exponetially the further it comes along.  So while humans were advancing in those three years after discovering prothean technology prior to the First Contact War, with the 1200 year head start the Turians would be advancing exponetially faster.

You're assuming that all races develop themselves at the same rate or in the same way. You should listen to our friend Kreia from KOTOR2 - conflict breeds advancement and many of those Citadel species have been stagnant for centuries yet Humans are guilty of in-fighting all the time.

In addition, the species need to have a level of interest in all the relevent fields: let's take Krogans for example, they've been on the galactic stage before Humans yet the second they need to rub their heads together to come up with a cure for the genophage they're stumped - it's just like Wrex says: "When was the last time you saw a Krogan scientist?" Not all species are the same, as shown by Krogan who seem to have a generally high level of intelligence but intellectually aren't interested enough.

I get what you're saying but I just think many of the Citadel species became very content and so their progression slowed whereas Humans have always been fighting, either amongst themselves or in a political way with trying to force their way into the Council - we're always pushing, the complete opposite of contentment, and that is why we advance so quickly: we're never, ever content.

[Hatire]

Doesn't the codex mention though that the Salarians are the race on the Council that most favors us? Could it be they wish a likeminded race be on the Council with them?

[Decan 187]

True but at the heart of it, isn't all tech based on Prothean(reaper) tech, maybe it was at it's limit as far as advancement. Probably designed that way by the reapers to limit growth.

[Myrmedus]

dwilson031 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Because we live such short lives we want to accomplish something within that relatively short amount of time, making us progress at a fast rate. In addition, we also have a high reproduction rate to account for those short lives resulting in a high amount of diversification, population increase and arguably evolution. As an example through parallel, take Liara again as an example: she appears to be the only child of Benezia, an Asari who has lived most of her life so is probably around 800-900 years old. Think about if that were an 800-900 human...she probably would've had 20 children by that age!

The salarians live shorter than us, sleep one hour a day, have high reproductive rate (a dozen eggs a year), higher metabolism, and their military doctrine is similar to ours.  Shouldn't they be the dominant species.

They should, and I think the main issue doesn't ride with Humans in the game but Salarians: a species that sleeps one hour a day and has a high level of intellect AND intellectual interest? Salarians would be light years ahead of any of the other species. Can you imagine how far we'd be if we only slept an hour a day? Jesus. The only way I could think they wouldn't is if their reproduction was static - ie. their natural evolution had pretty much stopped.

So I actually think the Salarians are the worst written race to be honest.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .

[InvaderErl]

The Citadel races survived the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions. Two wars that sounded devastating and were only won through guile and creative thinking - not with the rigid mindset that is being attributed to them.

And we DO see a Krogan scientist! He finds a way around the Genophage so Wrex was totally off the mark there.

[InvaderErl]

Decan 187 wrote...

True but at the heart of it, isn't all tech based on Prothean(reaper) tech, maybe it was at it's limit as far as advancement. Probably designed that way by the reapers to limit growth.

That's certainly possible but you mean to tell me we've caught up to the other races in terms of hitting that roof in just about a century? That's a pretty freaking low roof.

[Myrmedus]

Wow - 2 wars in 100s of years vs. a human world where I can't remember the last time it was without a form of military conflict.



Anyway Wrex's point wasn't meant to be absolutely 100% rigid it was simply an exaggerated point: they're not an intellectually motivated species, they're a conflict motivated species.

[InvaderErl]

Those were galactic wars, there were likely brush fires with the Terminus systems and other factions. We've only had 2 world wars in the last century since we begun our technological boom but that doesn't mean we haven't had conflicts in the mean time.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 09:55 .

[Myrmedus]

InvaderErl wrote...

Decan 187 wrote...

True but at the heart of it, isn't all tech based on Prothean(reaper) tech, maybe it was at it's limit as far as advancement. Probably designed that way by the reapers to limit growth.

That's certainly possible but you mean to tell me we've caught up to the other races in terms of hitting that roof in just about a century? That's a pretty freaking low roof.

Haha actually I think his post raises a good point, one I hadn't thought of to be honest.

It's not that the Reaper tech is the literal roof but rather it's tech that is so advanced compared to what the Council races are capable of at this time - with their level knowledge and intellectual acuity - that it has 'peaked' and flat-lined all the races out at about the same point for quite awhile. In fact that kind of flat-lining is probably what the Reapers wanted for their cycle. Think about it, none of the Council races even truly understood how the Citadel worked, nor do they understand Mass Effect technology. They utilize it but they can't reproduce it, and because of that it means if you pick up a piece of the technology you're just as advanced as someone else with it.

I still say the Salarians are a silly species in some ways though...one hour sleep, high reproduction rate, high intelligence, there's actually no reason they would have those traits unless they were from a planet that had 3-4 other incredibly intelligent life-forms.

[FFLB]

InvaderErl wrote...

The Citadel races survived the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions. Two wars that sounded devastating and were only won through guile and creative thinking - not with the rigid mindset that is being attributed to them.

And we DO see a Krogan scientist! He finds a way around the Genophage so Wrex was totally off the mark there.

But that was only one Krogan scientist that Shepard killed out of how many Krogan?

I don't think it was mentioned that the Citadel races used too much guile other than convincing the Krogan to fight their war for them and then, in turn, enlisting the Turians to fight the Krogan.