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[Decan 187]

InvaderErl wrote...

Decan 187 wrote...

True but at the heart of it, isn't all tech based on Prothean(reaper) tech, maybe it was at it's limit as far as advancement. Probably designed that way by the reapers to limit growth.

That's certainly possible but you mean to tell me we've caught up to the other races in terms of hitting that roof in just about a century? That's a pretty freaking low roof.

Yes, but whose to say that the tech isn't straight out of the data bank's on mars, it could be that if prothean tech is found it is exactly copied and produced. so ours would be just the same as turian, or asari, just the astetics would be diferent

[Myrmedus]

InvaderErl wrote...

Those were galactic wars, there were likely brush fires with the Terminus systems and other factions. We've only had 2 world wars in the last century since we begun our technological boom but that doesn't mean we haven't had conflicts in the mean time.

That's irrelevant. The scale of the conflict doesn't actually matter that much only what conflict motivates the species to do. We're not talking about War itself here but the invention and progression that results from it. It doesn't matter if there were 10 million or 10 billion involved but only the length of the war and the advancement required for it...the war would also need to be in a bit of a stalemate aswell.

Think WWs - most of the inventions came because the wars were long and they were very much wars of attrition. New 'powers' were required in order to break the deadlock.

[dwilson031]

Myrmedus wrote...

Wow - 2 wars in 100s of years vs. a human world where I can't remember the last time it was without a form of military conflict.

That's a good point, but play ME1 you see no shortage of criminal organizations.  Also the lack of wars could speak to the strengh of the council.  Perhaps it was the Asari diplomacy that diffused potentially dangerous situations,  or the Salarians discovering planned uprising or attacks before they happened, and the Turians striking before any they could muster enough soldiers to start a full-scale war.

[InvaderErl]

Well, the Turians held off the Krogan but the Salarians are the one's who came up the genophage - and the Salarians were the one's who uplifted the Krogan. Hmm, the Salarians SHOULD be in charge.

[Myrmedus]

dwilson031 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Wow - 2 wars in 100s of years vs. a human world where I can't remember the last time it was without a form of military conflict.

That's a good point, but play ME1 you see no shortage of criminal organizations.  Also the lack of wars could speak to the strengh of the council.  Perhaps it was the Asari diplomacy that diffused potentially dangerous situations,  or the Salarians discovering planned uprising or attacks before they happened, and the Turians striking before any they could muster enough soldiers to start a full-scale war.

There's a difference between common criminality and actual conflict. Again, it's not the conflict itself that is important but the advancement of the species that results with it. With criminal organizations it's generally just Cops vs. Bad Guys and the only time advancement is required is if the criminals manage to get their hands on high-tech weaponry.

And yes, it does speak to the strength of the Council but not necessarily in terms of their technological or intellectual advancement but to their diplomacy skills, as you said. That's all great but what use is having a great diplomat vs. the Reapers? Going to bring Sovereign down with a well reasoned argument?

I get the feeling they've tried to depict our species as a go-getter type. Many of the council species rest on their laurels, we don't. Perhaps in a few 100 years if the universe is more safe humans would hit that point of staleness like the others but for now we're still highly competitive.

[Myrmedus]

InvaderErl wrote...

Well, the Turians held off the Krogan but the Salarians are the one's who came up the genophage - and the Salarians were the one's who uplifted the Krogan. Hmm, the Salarians SHOULD be in charge.

I honestly hope ME2 reveals some big weakness of the Salarians because if it doesn't the species is completely 'imbalanced' - I know it sounds odd, almost like they're a class in the game haha, but I actually think they're more ridiculous than Humans in the ME universe, at least in terms of their capabilities.

The only thing I can think of is like I said - perhaps their rate of evolution has pretty much stopped dead or perhaps they don't live enough of their lives in a mature state.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:05 .

[InvaderErl]

Myrmedus wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Those were galactic wars, there were likely brush fires with the Terminus systems and other factions. We've only had 2 world wars in the last century since we begun our technological boom but that doesn't mean we haven't had conflicts in the mean time.

That's irrelevant. The scale of the conflict doesn't actually matter that much only what conflict motivates the species to do. We're not talking about War itself here but the invention and progression that results from it. It doesn't matter if there were 10 million or 10 billion involved but only the length of the war and the advancement required for it...the war would also need to be in a bit of a stalemate aswell.

Think WWs - most of the inventions came because the wars were long and they were very much wars of attrition. New 'powers' were required in order to break the deadlock.

Granted but humanity had already fought its wars by the time the ruins were discovered. They explored those technologies in a period of relative peace.

We KNOW the Turians fought Unification Wars for its colonies and at the very least had fought two intergalactic wars in the mean time so they're tech should have advanced along those lines regardless of the peace in the interim.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:05 .

[Decan 187]

Myrmedus wrote...

dwilson031 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Wow - 2 wars in 100s of years vs. a human world where I can't remember the last time it was without a form of military conflict.

That's a good point, but play ME1 you see no shortage of criminal organizations.  Also the lack of wars could speak to the strengh of the council.  Perhaps it was the Asari diplomacy that diffused potentially dangerous situations,  or the Salarians discovering planned uprising or attacks before they happened, and the Turians striking before any they could muster enough soldiers to start a full-scale war.

There's a difference between common criminality and actual conflict. Again, it's not the conflict itself that is important but the advancement of the species that results with it. With criminal organizations it's generally just Cops vs. Bad Guys and the only time advancement is required is if the criminals manage to get their hands on high-tech weaponry.

And yes, it does speak to the strength of the Council but not necessarily in terms of their technological or intellectual advancement but to their diplomacy skills, as you said. That's all great but what use is having a great diplomat vs. the Reapers? Going to bring Sovereign down with a well reasoned argument?

I get the feeling they've tried to depict our species as a go-getter type. Many of the council species rest on their laurels, we don't. Perhaps in a few 100 years if the universe is more safe humans would hit that point of staleness like the others but for now we're still highly competitive.

good point competition breeds inovation, which in turn breeds more competition

[Myrmedus]

InvaderErl wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Those were galactic wars, there were likely brush fires with the Terminus systems and other factions. We've only had 2 world wars in the last century since we begun our technological boom but that doesn't mean we haven't had conflicts in the mean time.

That's irrelevant. The scale of the conflict doesn't actually matter that much only what conflict motivates the species to do. We're not talking about War itself here but the invention and progression that results from it. It doesn't matter if there were 10 million or 10 billion involved but only the length of the war and the advancement required for it...the war would also need to be in a bit of a stalemate aswell.

Think WWs - most of the inventions came because the wars were long and they were very much wars of attrition. New 'powers' were required in order to break the deadlock.

Granted but humanity had already fought its wars by the time the ruins were discovered. They explored those technologies in a period of relative peace.

We KNOW the Turians fought Unification Wars for its colonies and at the very least had fought two intergalactic wars in the mean time so they're tech should have advanced along those lines regardless of the peace in the interim.

It depends on the conflict to be honest. On the flip-side we can consider the conflict in the Gaza Strip that's been going on and off for 1000 years but hasn't necessarily led to any technological advancement. It all depends on the stakes really; if one side has the power and the intelligence but is also facing utter annihilation (like the rest of the world was vs. the Germans (forums censor the word for "Nationalist Socialist Party") then it will hyper-advance due to necessity - as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. The sheer amount of innovations in the WWs was staggering. We pretty much got the submarine, the tank and the aircraft ALL within half a century!

However, not every conflict injects that kind of necessity. We've also had numerous wars that did not because the winning side didn't need to innovate and the losing side lacked the power to do so. We also do see an advancement in the war vs the Krogan which is the Genophage. I believe if the Turians had required advancement to win those wars they would've done so but apart from the Genophage obviously the competition was not high enough.

However, I definitely think the best reasoning is the 'roof' argument due to the Reaper tech - it's so advanced compared to ALL the races, to the point where it's beyond true comprehension, that there's no way they'd be able to improve on it yet. To improve and advance something you need to understand it, and we haven't understood Reaper tech hitherto at least.

As I said though I think Humans are fine. Lacking a significant weakness I think Salarians are the ones who are not fine.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:13 .

[dwilson031]

Myrmedus wrote...

There's a difference between common criminality and actual conflict. Again, it's not the conflict itself that is important but the advancement of the species that results with it. With criminal organizations it's generally just Cops vs. Bad Guys and the only time advancement is required is if the criminals manage to get their hands on high-tech weaponry.

And yes, it does speak to the strength of the Council but not necessarily in terms of their technological or intellectual advancement but to their diplomacy skills, as you said. That's all great but what use is having a great diplomat vs. the Reapers? Going to bring Sovereign down with a well reasoned argument?

I get the feeling they've tried to depict our species as a go-getter type. Many of the council species rest on their laurels, we don't. Perhaps in a few 100 years if the universe is more safe humans would hit that point of staleness like the others but for now we're still highly competitive.

I disagree.  Law enforcement and organized crime are always in a constant chess match.  Cops to catch the criminals, and criminals to avoid being caught.  While the criminals don't develop new technology they find ways to avoid getting caught by it, forcing new tactics and technology to be used by law enforcement.  Also with no idea what's going on behind the veil they would have to continue to advance or risk invasion.

[FFLB]

InvaderErl wrote...

Granted but humanity had already fought its wars by the time the ruins were discovered. They explored those technologies in a period of relative peace.

We KNOW the Turians fought Unification Wars for its colonies and at the very least had fought two intergalactic wars in the mean time so they're tech should have advanced along those lines regardless of the peace in the interim.

Actually, iirc, humans at that time were still pretty divided. As is mentioned in the codex, the Alliance is made up of a coalition of countries that wanted to take part in it. It wasn't until first contact that the Alliance became the face of humanity. I'd imagine that some of the more long-term conflicts still extend to that point in time. Although... with planets full of new materials and fuel, there would certainly be less conflict on Earth over those resources.

[Myrmedus]

dwilson031 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

There's a difference between common criminality and actual conflict. Again, it's not the conflict itself that is important but the advancement of the species that results with it. With criminal organizations it's generally just Cops vs. Bad Guys and the only time advancement is required is if the criminals manage to get their hands on high-tech weaponry.

And yes, it does speak to the strength of the Council but not necessarily in terms of their technological or intellectual advancement but to their diplomacy skills, as you said. That's all great but what use is having a great diplomat vs. the Reapers? Going to bring Sovereign down with a well reasoned argument?

I get the feeling they've tried to depict our species as a go-getter type. Many of the council species rest on their laurels, we don't. Perhaps in a few 100 years if the universe is more safe humans would hit that point of staleness like the others but for now we're still highly competitive.

I disagree.  Law enforcement and organized crime are always in a constant chess match.  Cops to catch the criminals, and criminals to avoid being caught.  While the criminals don't develop new technology they find ways to avoid getting caught by it, forcing new tactics and technology to be used by law enforcement.  Also with no idea what's going on behind the veil they would have to continue to advance or risk invasion.

This is only really high-level criminality and many of those simply don't get caught, haha. We're also talking avoiding apprehension through things like bending laws, espionage and information trafficking - it's not the same as technological advancement really. It's a form of progression but it's not in the same league as the progression spurred by wars.

[dwilson031]

Myrmedus wrote...

This is only really high-level criminality and many of those simply don't get caught, haha. We're also talking avoiding apprehension through things like bending laws, espionage and information trafficking - it's not the same as technological advancement really. It's a form of progression but it's not in the same league as the progression spurred by wars.

True. But you're thinking of how organized crime is today.  I think organized crime in the ME1 universe is still at a level similar to older times where they had the strengh and the resources to clash openly with law enforcement, not depending on bribes, and secrecy to the extent they do today.

[Myrmedus]

They do but alot of the high-level criminality is simply engaged in a conflict of posturing with enforcement rather than direct confrontation. Anyway, even so it's still on a small scale compared to 3 major mechanical innovations in a half-century

[GreenDragon37]

I support the "Reaper's plans of preventing great advancements" theory. All races follow along the Reaper tech tree, until they hit a stage when they cannot continue to advance. Even the Council races do not fully comprehend the technology. They just use it, all a part of a clever plan.

[SpectreT]

Two Words: Bell Curve. Let's look at another BioWare creation, Knights of the Old Republic.

Four thousand years of almost complete social and technological stagnation. Aesthetics change but at the end of the day, they peaked at personal plasma weapons (blasters and lightsabers are "ionized gas", a description near enough to plasma as to make no appreciable difference), Healing Goo (Kolto, Bacta) and FTL Travel.

So in that galaxy far, far away, they had sufficient tech to be magic to 1970's Earth for a bare minimum of four thousand years, even backslid a bit. (Where did personal shields go?)

The reason is simple: past a certain point in Science Fiction, there is an absolute ceiling on technology. Once you've got large-scale space travel and some form of FTL, you're done. A fully matured galactic civilization that ain't gonna progress no more.

For a real-world parallel, look at guns. Depending on which experimental archaeologists you believe, the concept is either a few hundred or a couple thousand years old.

End of the day, they're still chemical-reaction slugthrowers, even if a Barrett .50 rifle totally outclasses a bamboo blunderbuss by an outlandish amount. We're still tweaking the idea, but we just don't have the tech yet to make a man-portable magnetic "rail gun" possible, due to the size of the power plant. Ditto for laser weapons. But we're getting there. On our own.

Throw in an ancient blueprint for a zero point energy source and some FTL tech, and we're pretty much where ME has us, tech-wise. And there wouldn't be much room for ambition, Tech-wise, unless some mook starts a fargin' war. It's a staple of sci-fi that pure cussedness is humanity's unique trait. We make war like no one else, and we're nasty with it. It's a staple of Role Playing Games that Humans are the baseline species, and any other species in game is an expansion of one facet or other of our traits, be it diplomacy, curiosity, pure fighting grit, whatever. Krogan, Quarian, Turinan, Salarian and Asari are all mirrors of one aspect or another of the human race. Naturally, compared to specialists, we're awesomesauce because they're just exaggerated fictional reflections of but a single facet of our character. We're the real deal.

Edited for some spelling errors I caught and one tiny point of clarification at the end

Modifié par SpectreT, 24 janvier 2010 - 05:30 .

[Kimarous]

The Council is a bunch of stagnant wusses and so is 80% of all Citadel citizens. Seriously, as far as I can tell, the first human spectre gets more done in a few weeks than the galactic beaurocracy does in a century.

[Rhostadt]

1) Humans seem considerably more ambitious and driven than any of the other races.  I think this is the biggest reason for humanity's 'power' in ME.
2) Humans are depicted as 'thinking outside the box' as compared to the other species.  For example, fighter carriers and their disruptor torpedo carrying fighters.  Keep in mind that the Citadel restriction on warship construction only applies to dreadnoughts; not other warships, and carriers are said to be the size of those dreadnoughts (that's a lot of fighters!).

3) All their technology, alien and human, has the same foundation.

I should also point out that it's made clear that humanity does not have near strength enough to defy the Council.  Also, by the time humanity can take over the Council, I think it's more a matter of them being willing to take charge during a time of trouble that makes it possible (although I don't think an all human Council would promote stability for very long).  Something very similar happened during the Krogan Rebellions.  The Citadel races at that time were in serious trouble.  Along came the turians and practically dragged their asses out of the fire (with non trivial help from the salarians).

[Solar Sail]

I would like to point out that if the Salarians werent apart of the citadel they would of advanced much futher. But as the Salarians do like the humans they would willingly share tech and humans are very good at adaption as shown through out our history.
 
Also not that this isnt common in the galaxy but between mars and earth is a asteriod belt with very valuable resources as such some asteriods in the belt are so big they are worth billions and can supply earths needs for much longer than earth mineing can. So they will probably have a lot of resources left over like iron and many types of metal, it would give humans a surpluse of meterials allowing for ships to be produced rapidly and produced with other races adapeted tech.Also human reserach doesnt seem to be bound like the other races are, they have rouge corperations which hide under a company makeing ships like cerberus then useing the money to reserach illegel or otherwise never before tried tech that the council wouldnt be happy about.

With all that being said have you looked at the human physic, mentally humans are tough and physically we are stronger than many other races makeing us deadly compared to the Salarians which are not very strong and are quickl to die. Put simply we adapt quick and presue our goals with a passion makeing us advance quickly. \\

Oh ya mass efffect humans will probably be behind us in reality as we are evoleing so fast on earth right now 2010-2020 will be years of new tech entering the market and that being envoled quickly just like the poor space shuttle being retired in 3 years and being replaced by a new line made for travel to mars

Modifié par Solar Sail, 24 janvier 2010 - 12:58 .

[dwilson031]

When I posted this forum, the questiong was really on two levels.  The one thats been discussed is does the advancement of the human alliance in the ME universe make since.  On this I still feel the same.  That it does not.  Technological stagnation aside, the slow rate at which the council species would have to reproduce for humanity to become the most visible species (which appears to be the case when exploring the game environments) in such a short amount of time is inconceivable.

As far as the second meaning to the posted question.  I also wanted to know if people thought it was a mistake for Bioware to give humanity this power in the game?  From the responses I would guess that most people would answer no.  Which is fine, but I would like to share my reason for thinking it was a mistake.  What attracted me to this game was the gamespot.com review.  Prior to reading it I had not followed the development of ME at all.  The review stated how humanity is not the political center of the universe. We don't even have a seat on the galactic council.  To me this sounded like a great idea, seeing as how pretty much every sci-fi/fantasy setting has humans as the dominant force.

I wanted a game that recongized that if there are other intelligent species out there they would have developed along the same lines as us.  By this I mean balanced.  That they too would have felt like the dominant species prior to the discovery of alien life.  I was looking forward to a young, humbled human race, looking to become part of a galactic civilization of equals.

Instead it was more of the same.  The aliens species each take a specializes in a single facet of human society, ignoring, for the most part, all others.  Yes humanity is not the politcal center of the universe, but this is only due to the recent entry of humanity onto the galactic stage.  It's not a question of if humanity will take over, but when. 

I love Bioware, and their games.  Loved ME1, can't wait to play ME2.  I just feel it could have been so much more.

[Andorfiend]

Yes there are some problems with the way humans are depicted in ME. As the OP noted the timeline is way too short for humans to have become as influential as they are. Likewise the Alliance fleet is a small fraction of that of the Asari or Salarians let alone the combined mass of the Council races. The Arcturas fleet was influential in the Battle of the Citadel not because humans have a lot of ship but because we keep our limited resources centralized rather than dispersed. By that same token however our losses in that battle were much worse than any other races.



Likewise the 'sleeping giant' comment made about humanity in the codex is just ridiculous. It's an obvious allusion to America vs Japan in WW 2 but in that scenario we are Japan. We have a good fleet, but we have one major planet (which is politically divided) and a few dozen minor colony worlds. The other races have dozens of major planets and hundreds of colonies. They have a population in the trillions compared to humanities billions. Their individual industrial reserve in peacetime dwarfs anything humanity could possibly dream of doing in full wartime production. On a collective wartime footing I'd be amazed if the Council races industrial capacity was less than 100 times what humanity has.



Our daring, tactics, and carriers might less us swing above our weight class but there isn't a hope in hell of humanity being a dominant part of the Relay Nexus militarily in anything other than a morale sense.



And remember that the battle of Shanxi was the entire Alliance fleet against a Turian scout flotilla. If the Council hadn't stepped in before the Turians got properly organized we'd have been conquered without difficulty.

[dwilson031]

Andorfiend wrote...


And remember that the battle of Shanxi was the entire Alliance fleet against a Turian scout flotilla. If the Council hadn't stepped in before the Turians got properly organized we'd have been conquered without difficulty.

Good point.  I also noticed the "sleeping giant" allegory, and agree it's ridiculous.  The idea that the newest civilization to the galaxy, one that is obsessed with increasing its influene, would have the lowest percentage of it's population in the military is far fetched to say the least.

[Swiftlink]

Maybe humans bought military technology from some other races to catch up

[FFLB]

While I do feel that the rise of human influence throughout the game does occur fairly quickly, it does seem justified to an extent. As we can see from the Krogans and the Turians, the might of those races also justified their quick ascension within the ranks of the Citadel species. They gained prominence just as quickly, if not quicker, than humans. Albeit, there was no known identifiable threat to the galaxy at that time, but they proved their worth by the end of the game.



Although it does seem like the Citadel species have one or two major defining traits to them, there's more to them than the stereotypes that we were introduced to throughout the game, as Wrex implies during an elevator conversation with Kaidan.



In regards to military tech, I think it was implied that human tech during the First Contact War was pretty much on par with what the Citadel species had, although this isn't taking into account the novel tech that the Alliance employed... whatever that novel technology happened to be.