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Does anyone find the Amount of power the alliance has ridiculus?


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#76
DPSSOC

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dwilson031 wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...


And remember that the battle of Shanxi was the entire Alliance fleet against a Turian scout flotilla. If the Council hadn't stepped in before the Turians got properly organized we'd have been conquered without difficulty.


Good point.  I also noticed the "sleeping giant" allegory, and agree it's ridiculous.  The idea that the newest civilization to the galaxy, one that is obsessed with increasing its influene, would have the lowest percentage of it's population in the military is far fetched to say the least.


Not really.  Due to various Citadel treaties, one specifically deals with dreadnought production, humanity's abilty to produce ships is limited.  Furthermore they know they can't match the Turians in terms of numbers, they'll always have more ships/soldiers partly because they're a Council race and partly due to the fact that a high percentage of their population are in the military.  So rather than try to match the other races in numbers, or trying to beat them at their own game, they've focused on different ways of fighting.  So rather than trying to build a large powerful military the Alliance has focused on build a small, effective military based on innovative tactics and technology.  This kind of revolutionary military thinking coming from small/backward locales isn't unheard of; when you know you can't win a fight against an enemy on their terms you invent your own.

#77
dwilson031

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DPSSOC wrote...

Not really.  Due to various Citadel treaties, one specifically deals with dreadnought production, humanity's abilty to produce ships is limited.  Furthermore they know they can't match the Turians in terms of numbers, they'll always have more ships/soldiers partly because they're a Council race and partly due to the fact that a high percentage of their population are in the military.  So rather than try to match the other races in numbers, or trying to beat them at their own game, they've focused on different ways of fighting.  So rather than trying to build a large powerful military the Alliance has focused on build a small, effective military based on innovative tactics and technology.  This kind of revolutionary military thinking coming from small/backward locales isn't unheard of; when you know you can't win a fight against an enemy on their terms you invent your own.


Humans ability to build ships isn't limitied by treaty, just the ability to build dreadnoughts.  And while "revolutionary military thinking" is used by often by revolutionaries, an important part of becoming a superpower is a large military force; which is obviously the alliances goal.  So while they alliance may be fine relying on these tactics now, while there population is so small, they still would be working on building a more substantial military force.  So it still doesn't make sense to have the smallest percent of your population in the military.

What is that quote from at the end? Sounds familar.

#78
DPSSOC

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dwilson031 wrote...

Humans ability to build ships isn't limitied by treaty, just the ability to build dreadnoughts.  And while "revolutionary military thinking" is used by often by revolutionaries, an important part of becoming a superpower is a large military force; which is obviously the alliances goal.  So while they alliance may be fine relying on these tactics now, while there population is so small, they still would be working on building a more substantial military force.  So it still doesn't make sense to have the smallest percent of your population in the military.


The reason they're relying on these tactics is because without dreadnoughts meeting any of the Council races massive fleets with their own would be suicide.  So since they know they could never beat the Council races no matter how large they're fleet or how many people they have in their military they've focused on finding ways to be effective with a smaller force.  Now that they've gotten on the Council they'll probably start working towards a massive fleet with a larger percentage of their population in the military, but at the time of the game producing a large fleet would have been overly expensive and ineffective.

dwilson031 wrote...

What is that quote from at the end? Sounds familar.


Honestly couldn't tell you.  I'm not vain enough to think I came up with it by myself but I can't think of any particular place I've heard/read it before.

#79
Welder0

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dwilson031 wrote...

What is that quote from at the end? Sounds familar.


Dunno about the quote, but it's one of the definitions of assymetric warfare.

http://en.wikipedia....mmetric_warfare

#80
johnnymo0829

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humanity fought one of the council races to a standstill in a war, made them an automatic player

#81
Swe_Racoon

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No we didn't. The turians underestimated the Alliance, and hence were caught unprepared. Think of it like Pear Harbour, we hit the turians when they weren't looking. If the Council hand't stepped in humanity would've been wiped of the map pretty quick.

#82
dwilson031

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Interesting how two battles are refered to as a war by the alliance. Propoganda!

#83
Pileyourbodies

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Why does % of population in the military matter? Americas military is a small % compared to say North Korea, a country with a thousand or so years worth of tradition and yet America is leaps and bounds ahead of NK, % means nothing considering that a high % of the people are foot soldiers what matters is your guys in the think tanks and analysts that focus on making things better the Turians are much like the roman empire and can't change fast enough. The Council races are leaps and bounds ahead of us and the human population seems to large in game because we're going to mostly human worlds.

Feros is a human colony, Noveria was founded by human corporations i think in the Wards we're going to what seems to be a human area considering the fact that there is a human run bar we don't have a reason to go to non human areas in game.

The humans were able to win at the Citadel because the Geth and Sovereign weren't expecting a fleet to come in, Sovereign had closed down the mass relays so they didn't expect a fleet of anything to come and humans were able to catch them off guard.

#84
pacer90

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Look at the council. For god sakes if there's an example of why humans are so different it's them.

#85
dwilson031

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% of population wouldn't matter for an established civilization. But you have to figure given the small amount of time expanding across the galaxy compared to the other civilizations the total human population would make up less than a % of citadel space. With such a miniscule portion already to have such a low % of your population in the military doesn't make since. With Korea's small population are military still has more active soldiers than they do. In fact Korea is an example of what I'm talking about. Because of their small population they have a much larger % in the military to try and keep up.

I was thinking the same thing about the ward being were humans decided to settle on the Citadel. however looking at the presidium you still see a large number of humans. Noveria was settled by a dozen corporation according to the codex, it doesn't say which companies.

While I agree that the humans were able to win at the Citadel because the Geth and Sovereign weren't expecting a fleet to come in, I'd like to point out that it was 100 years after the end of the Krogan Rebellion before the Turians were allowed to join the council.

#86
Solar Sail

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has anyone noticed that we dont get to see other races homeworlds and i bet you that the citadel fleet isnt the other species main fleets. We havent seen any other species worlds that are like our earth and i think those would be greatly advanced as they dont all live on the citadel. Look at the Destiny Ascension its the largest in the galaxy yet the humans dont even have 10 Dreadnoughts they only have 5 and one undercontruction, the turians have 37 of them and the asari 21 so big difference.

#87
A. Cameron

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I think that the main reason that humans are so prominent in the game, is that Shep is a human, so the interactions and perspective are all that of a human.



Also, the GAME was made by humans.

#88
DPSSOC

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A. Cameron wrote...

I think that the main reason that humans are so prominent in the game, is that Shep is a human, so the interactions and perspective are all that of a human.

Also, the GAME was made by humans.


This

Also if they wanted to make the other races more prominent they'd have to go into Tolkien-level detail on them or we'd be demanding to know why the played such a large role when they weren't nearly as well fleshed out as humanity.  For we are fans and as fans no concession made for our benefit will ever satisfy us.  Bioware could develope a game that plugged into your brain and gave an experience as real and detailed as life and we'd still complain.

#89
dwilson031

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A. Cameron wrote...

I think that the main reason that humans are so prominent in the game, is that Shep is a human, so the interactions and perspective are all that of a human.

Also, the GAME was made by humans.

So was Happy Feet, but I still see more penguins.

#90
x895771

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In my opinion it was shown several times through both ME1 and ME2 that humans are a far more brash and direct species, we take risks and challenge the status quo. The council races, in general, seems more than happy to just let things be, which is a mindset I can see them having maintained for thousands of years. Asari, for example, live for thousands of years and really have no rush to get things done. We settled colonies in areas other races deemed unsafe, in Revelation we research AI, which is considered taboo amongst the rest of the galaxy.



In the Mass Effect universe, Human beings have a much higher resolve to get things done, we are not used to being second guessed, we are not used to being told what to do, and we are just ballsy enough to say no, even when all cards are put on the table and we have the obvious disadvantage.

#91
Hyper Cutter

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We did kind of luck out and have a mostly-intact Prothean base on our doorstep and a mass relay in the same system as our homeworld. I'm not sure how many of the others can claim that...

InvaderErl wrote...

And we DO see a Krogan scientist! He finds a way around the Genophage so Wrex was totally off the mark there

Not to mention that since they developed nuclear weapons on their own, they had scientists as some point...

#92
Zaxares

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x895771 wrote...

In my opinion it was shown several times through both ME1 and ME2 that humans are a far more brash and direct species, we take risks and challenge the status quo. The council races, in general, seems more than happy to just let things be, which is a mindset I can see them having maintained for thousands of years. Asari, for example, live for thousands of years and really have no rush to get things done. We settled colonies in areas other races deemed unsafe, in Revelation we research AI, which is considered taboo amongst the rest of the galaxy.

In the Mass Effect universe, Human beings have a much higher resolve to get things done, we are not used to being second guessed, we are not used to being told what to do, and we are just ballsy enough to say no, even when all cards are put on the table and we have the obvious disadvantage.


I think this guy's hit it on the head. We can probably chalk the rapid success of humanity (even the game frequently mentions the other alien races are unnerved by or afraid of humanity's rapid elbowing into the upper echelons of galatic politics) to three things:

1. We are a highly competitive race, and we do not like being inferiors to somebody else. Detractors of humanity would probably call this pride or egotism. It's obvious from dialogue from many major human characters in ME1 (most notably Anderson, Udina and Hackett) that humanity believes it should be one of the leaders of the galaxy, not just a fellow citizen. Accordingly, we've tried to muscle our way into practically every aspect of galatic civilisation, from politics to trade to the military, whereas other races tend to be content just focusing on one aspect. (Like the volus, who mostly deal in economic matters, or the turians' focus on the military.)

2. The inertia/complacency of the other established races. The last real major war in the galaxy was the Krogan Rebellions, which occured almost 1000 years ago. Since then, the galactic races seem to have largely settled into a 'this is the best way to do things' mentality. Codex entries and in-game conversations suggest that technology (and society based on that technology) has not really progressed much in the last millenia or so. This has kept things very stable, but it's also let the Council races slip into a kind of stagnation. Just like how Imperial China at the start of the 20th century was unwilling to accept the idea that any kind of lifestyle/society could be superior or more effective than theirs (a view for which they ultimately paid a VERY heavy price), the Council races are being so slow to accept/adopt new ideas and new strategies that could ultimately prove their undoing.

3. The Alliance military is probably the second-most powerful military force in the galaxy, after the Turians. Like it or not, when it comes to exercising power on a national/global level, it always ultimately comes down to who has the biggest guns. Although it may not be large in terms of numbers, I'm guessing that humanity, just like today, probably spends a disproportionate amount of its GDP on the military. From playing BDtS, we learn that the human military could easily kick the ass of the Batarian military, and aside from the Turians, none of the other races really have an effective military structure that can match the humans.

Taken altogether, you can probably see why Liara tells Shepard that the rest of the galaxy sees humanity as something of a bully. They're pushing their way into every part of galactic life, not caring if the other races want them there or not, and if resisted, flex their military muscle to get their way.

#93
Engared

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I think alot of Salarians have ADHD or some form of it. And that is what keeps them back. I know cause i have it and even though i would like to think of myself as intellegent, i never am able to finish anything which i start. I jump from subject to subject, topic to topic, always restless and always trying new things. Salarians to me seem rather similar and easily distracted. Maybe it is this coupled to their short lives which keep them from achieving any form of true technological advancement.

#94
Haventh

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 No, not at all. I really don't care about the insignificant things. Waste of energy i say. Only things that can ****** me off, is the major things. Though Bioware is rather good to avoid those.

I have atleast not have any major problems with bioware games.

#95
Inquisitor Recon

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Cause humanity kicks ass in the ME future I guess.

#96
sedrikhcain

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InvaderErl wrote...

Decan 187 wrote...

True but at the heart of it, isn't all tech based on Prothean(reaper) tech, maybe it was at it's limit as far as advancement. Probably designed that way by the reapers to limit growth.


That's certainly possible but you mean to tell me we've caught up to the other races in terms of hitting that roof in just about a century? That's a pretty freaking low roof.


Considering what we know of the Protheans, and of human nature, this is best explnation I have yet seen -- although considering the resources necessary to build, maintain and expand a military force, I still think this is a bit of a hole in the plotline.

There is plenty of evidence in the story that the other Citadel races resent humanity but given our extremely rapid advance I don't think it goes far enough -- and our survival of the first contact wart does seem far-fetched as well. Unless of course there is some explanation about limits on the advancement of technology. This Prothean designed ceiling thing makes sense.

#97
grregg

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I think one factor that is to blame is the inflated timescale of the setting. To be honest I don't see what is gained by adding 0s to all the dates. Seems to me that if the Krogan Rebellions were 120 years ago, as opposed to 1200, the timeline would be more consistent and understandable.



It would be way easier for me to believe that humanity jumped ahead 200 years and caught up to the aliens than, as it is described now, that the aliens sat on their behinds for a millennium without actually achieving anything.



I mean there are asari and salarian scientists, right? Sounds like an awesome job, do nothing for a thousand years and no one notices. :)



I would understand adding the centuries to the timeline if BioWare actually DID anything with them. But as it is, there are huge empty spaces in the timeline and no one has a clue what they're for. Maybe there's some kind of writers' handbook that says "add a 0 to your timeline, 50% more epic guaranteed!"

#98
Zemore

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i think the fact the alliance has that much power IS the point of the game.

the game is about Shepard a human its about how he is the only one that can save the galaxy its about why he is so powerful and so skilled



so overall its about why humans are right for the job humanity has the very essence of what the councils specs are about ... we do what we have to in order to acheive things.

our entire history is paved in the blood of weaker people a sad fact but very very true.

#99
Last Darkness

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didnt read the all the pages but did anyone notice the part where you are heavily hinted at human evolution and such being assissted by a outside alien race?

#100
WickedZebra

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It's possible our advancement could have been aided all along by the Protheans. Remember the trinket the Consort gives you and what it unlocks? Humans just advance fast. I think it's better to be a decent at a bunch of stuff than just really good at one thing. That's what we have on all the other races. We're jacks of all trades :)