Jump to content

Photo

Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn Reloaded


  • Please log in to reply
823 replies to this topic

#1
drechner

drechner
  • Members
  • 300 posts

Hey, all,

 

The BGR Team (Shallina, myself, and perhaps a few new and familiar faces), having completed Baldur's Gate: Reloaded, have decided to complete the series and remake Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn + Throne of Bhaal. While we originally made the announcement over a month ago, it sounds like many of you in this awesome community are not on Facebook which is where we do most of our communication. I greatly value your guys' input and comments, so it would be a shame to not include many of you whom I deeply respect and admire in our updates and conversations about the upcoming campaign.

 

Therefore, I'd like to use this thread to spread some news and have discussions about the upcoming campaign (some might be reposts from the Facebook page: https://www.facebook...ursGateReloaded

 

I look forward to hearing from you guys and sharing our progress!

 

Finally, here's our announcement trailer:

 


  • Gorthaur the Cruel, BartjeD, ArtemisJ and 1 other like this

#2
drechner

drechner
  • Members
  • 300 posts

Here's a repost from the Facebook page that talks about some improvements in workflow, etc. that we're doing for Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn Reloaded (SOAR).

------------------------------------------------------------

Now that we've announced Baldur's Gate II: Reloaded (or SOAR as we like to call it), I wanted to start an initiative to do a better job sharing information with you all throughout development, which will hopefully result in more regular updates and "mini-blog" posts. 


I wanted to share some of the ways we're looking to improve upon BGR in SOAR. A few months after BGR was completed, I created a "post-mortem", which is basically a reflection on what worked, what didn't work, and why. As much as we love BGR and are proud of the work we did, there are a lot of ways in which we could have done things differently, at a higher quality, and more efficiently. We learned a ton of things during the development of BGR, but, as a saying I just made up goes, it's hard to turn an oil rig around; it's sometimes better to just stay the course. With a new project, we get enact these changes from the start, which I'll detail more below.

1. Identifying a critical path. One of the most important aspects of pre-production (before you actually start developing a project) is to identify a "critical path" or what needs to get done first before other things can get done. In game development, this can be quite tricky because there are often a lot of cross-dependencies. In BGR, there was a lot of overhead in making any changes to our area scripts, creatures, or items because they were made in the wrong order; hundreds if not thousands of hours were wasted due to this. For SOAR then, we decided the first thing we would do is to compile a list of the custom content we will need and create placeholders. Following that, we could create all the item icons, then all the items. Afterwards, we could then make all the creatures (not NPCs)in the game and equip them with the newly created items. This is all done before any work on levels begin. The list goes on, of course, but you probably get the idea.

2. Using the campaign directory more. For SOAR, we've decided to move as many creatures, items, scripts, and dialogues to the campaign directory as possible and where it makes sense. In BGR, we ran into a lot of issues, especially early-on, due to each module having its own set of items. If we ever wanted to update an item, we had to update them all. Needless to say, this was tedious and error prone. Furthermore, because NWN2 stores items in stores and loot containers as separate instances of the item, updating an item in the module wouldn't do anything to the items already placed in a store or loot container. In BGR, we suffered a lot of items having an incorrect cost value, icon, appearance, or even stats. By moving everything to the campaign directory and following our critical path, issues such as the ones we experienced in BGR should be minimized greatly.

3. More testing throughout development. In BGR, we tested as we developed, but not always in the most organized way. Something almost every game developer does is to create test maps in which specific features can be tested quickly and easily. While we had a limited number of test maps in BGR, we intend to create more test maps to create stable, and ideally final, features as early as possible. For example, in SOAR, we created a test map for testing each item to ensure they behave properly, look correct, cost the right amount, etc. It's important that we get this right early so we can avoid having to make costly fixes later in development. 

4. Encounter balance. Some of the encounters in BGR were not balanced in a way with which we felt happy. While a lot of this came down to the rather open nature of BG and our focus being diverted to actually completing the game, we want to make the encounters in SOAR as balanced, challenging, and fun as possible. Somewhat related to the above, we plan on having test maps to more thoroughly test creatures and major encounters in the game to avoid some of the difficulty (or lack of difficulty) spikes seen in BGR.

5. Better custom art assets. While most of the custom art we borrowed from the outstanding NWN2 community is extremely high-quality, the custom art assets we created were not always of the same quality level. In particular, the custom BCK textures we created stuck out a bit and didn't match the style of quality of the surrounding assets. For SOAR, we've already created a lot of custom assets that we believe are vastly improved and we can't wait to show some of those off soon.

6. General polish. While I think we ended up releasing a game that was pretty well-polished in the end, there are a lot of features we just didn't have time to tweak and perfect the way we wanted. In particular, resting felt a little underwhelming and not as cool as it could have been. For SOAR, we fixed this and we've rewritten or rest system which we'll hopefully demonstrate soon.

7. Improved Creature spawning. Many of the creatures in BGR happened to spawn in sight of the player and often in odd locations, such as behind the player. While some of this was related to the rather open design of the levels, there are some tweaks that could be made to the encounter spawning system that would have fixed many of these issues. Furthermore, creatures tended to spawn in weird groups (e.g. a zombie spawning with a wolf and a kobold--what?!?). For SOAR, we think we've implemented a fix to both of these issues.

8. Better level layout and gameplay. One of the problems we had in creating fun encounters in BGR was that the level design was not designed to support certain kinds of encounters. This was mostly due to the areas being designed and often polished with final art before any scripting was completed. Because of the large amount of wasted time it took to redesign a finished area, we often could only make minor changes to spawn placement or minor level details. In SOAR, however, we are developing levels in a multi-stage process which will allow for more rapid gameplay iteration. The first step is what's called "level blockout" in which no attention is given to the art of the level, only the "feel" of the playable area. During this stage, we ensure the walkmesh is exactly what we want (so the player can navigate everywhere we want them to go, etc.) and the scale is correct. During this stage, we'll also put in doors and other area transitions. The next stage is to script the area for gameplay. During this stage, we can still shift around the area to ensure our layout supports the best encounters possible. The final stage is polishing everything, including texturing, using final art, audio, etc.

9. Smaller module size. In BGR, we grouped a large number of areas into a single module, which was great for short load times between the areas within that module, but made for some very long load times when loading into the module the first time or restarting after a death or a saved game. This was most easily noticeable with Baldur's Gate city, in which the load times could easily take over 30 seconds to a minute, which is far too long. Therefore, we will be making every exterior area and its associated interior areas into their own modules. This will help normalize the load times and even provide some workflow improvements since Shallina and I can stay out of each other's way easier.

10. Delayed Beta Testing. While our talented beta testers provided excellent feedback and bug reports for BGR, we weren't able to utilize the beta as well as we could have as we were still polishing and making the game. Instead, we will be pushing the beta until we believe the game is done, so we can focus on only fixing bugs to ensure for the most stable release possible. We were proud of our work in BGR, but we would have liked to have the stability we have in Patch 3 available at release.

There's definitely a few other items that I could have mentioned here, but perhaps I'll save those for another time. We're incredibly excited to be on our journey of recreating one of the best RPGs of all-time in NWN2. Thanks for reading and let me know if you'd like to see more posts like this!



#3
drechner

drechner
  • Members
  • 300 posts

Here's a few sneak peeks at our custom NPC heads we're creating for SOAR. Please note that all the models are missing their hair and any texturing, etc. All base models created with MakeHuman.

 

Jaheira

zdK2YjB.jpg

 

Minsc

7oeAO7a.png

 

Jan

Jkn6NrG.png


  • PJ156 and rjshae like this

#4
Eguintir Eligard

Eguintir Eligard
  • Members
  • 1,832 posts

 

 

Using the campaign directory more.

Why not exclusively and remove all issues?


EDIT: nevermind the last part. Good luck



#5
rjshae

rjshae
  • Members
  • 4,477 posts

MakeHuman looks like a pretty useful tool. There's a lot of distinctiveness to the facial features of your models, and they have a pretty good likeness to their portraits. Does it also help with texturing?



#6
drechner

drechner
  • Members
  • 300 posts

Why not exclusively and remove all issues?


EDIT: nevermind the last part. Good luck

 

There are still a lot of things such as placeables, non-combat NPCs that don't appear in other areas, etc. that still make sense to keep in the module directory. If SOAR wasn't so big, I'd probably stick with only the campaign directory.

 

 

MakeHuman looks like a pretty useful tool. There's a lot of distinctiveness to the facial features of your models, and they have a pretty good likeness to their portraits. Does it also help with texturing?

 
It does provide a fully "textured" human body, but it doesn't have much detail (I don't think it's supposed to) and I'm not quite sure it can be used for much.


#7
andysks

andysks
  • Members
  • 1,642 posts

It is tricky. My campaign once reached 4,2 gb and been trying since then to make it less. I guess the best way is to have both. Like in the OC, it wouldn't make sense if the blueprints of these West Harbor villagers were campaign resources, but some that need to reappear yes, like Axel or the companions of course... :).



#8
BartjeD

BartjeD
  • Members
  • 249 posts

Any updates? Shadows of Amn was my first introduction into the Forgotten Realms. I've never forgotten it. Irenicus was such an epic villain that he is still my measuring base line for any bad guy I see in a game or movie. :D



#9
rjshae

rjshae
  • Members
  • 4,477 posts

I'm speculating this will take several years to accomplish, so it'll be a while before you can get your hands on it. BGR took something like six years, IIRC.



#10
Luminus

Luminus
  • Members
  • 456 posts

BGR actually took 7 years. From 2007 to 2014 I believe. I've been following the project since before the old BSN, if I am not mistaken.

But most of it is Drew exploring and mastering the toolset as well as doing stuff from scratch with zero experience with it.

Now, he has Shallina from the start, has tons of experience know-how about it and knows what pitfalls to avoid and how to speed things up.

My estimation is that it will take half the time. Perhaps 3-4 years at max, unless they give up on because of RL complications.



#11
rjshae

rjshae
  • Members
  • 4,477 posts

BG2 is much larger than BG, so, while the pipeline is more efficient, it's also a longer pipe. Especially if it includes ToBh.



#12
Tchos

Tchos
  • Members
  • 5,030 posts

For better calculation, BGR was released 2013-04-06, not in 2014.



#13
kamal_

kamal_
  • Members
  • 5,235 posts
Hmm, i think bg2 has fewer areas (bg1 has tons of random areas to explore around), however bg2 areas are mostly more visually complicated and there's a good chunk of bg2 areas I just cant see being made and keeping the look without having custom content made for them.

The Athkatla slums reminds me of Crimmor in that they are all "jumbles of life and stuff" compared to the cleaner and more organized Baldur's Gate. The Crimmor exteriors took a lot of time, maybe a month for each just for making the map.

#14
Shallina

Shallina
  • Members
  • 1,011 posts

Since Drew lurk rarelly around here, and is more on Facebook, I'll take the task to spill what 's going on into SOAR in those forum.

 

First after somme work into SOAR we can compare the amount of work needed between SOAR and BGR.

 

BGR has a lot more area than SOAR, it can 't be compared, but SOAR has a lot more events, quests, and scripting required. the amount of time of work in BGR was split at 50% : 50% for making the area and the asset, and 50% for scripting. SOAR it 's going to be 30% area making 70% scripting, perhaps even 80% of the time scripting.

 

Then we learned a lot while doing BGR, I will speak of the one thing we learned that can really help others mods maker.

 

-Campaign ressources needs to be "stable" before you do anything else. So when you put them in game, you don' t have to go back and change them everywhere you used them in yoru whole campaign/mod. In the campaign ressource we have items, they are a major pain. They need to be "stable" before you start anything where they are needed.

 

Things which are placed in area are "instanced" the moment you place them, things which are "spawned" with scripts are "reference", which mean if you update that object the update will be done everywhere it 's "spawned" at the same time.

 

The conclusion to avoid headhache when debugging, or updating your work place as few thing as possible and spawn the maximum of them.

NPC, Creature, Stores for exemples are good exemple of thing you need to spawn and not place.

 

Now let' s speak in detail of what we are doing into SOAR.

 

-First thing we managed to make operational a "teamwork" accross the internet, it will really ease our concern with versionning.

- Second thing, Drew made all the items, they aren' t completly final, but they are in a state where we can place them and use them without the need to comme back at them later, they are nearly final and good enought to be used. I mean absolutly all the items, SOA and TOB, it was a monster work.

 

-For myself I am responsible for 2 things for now and until I finish them : Everything in TOB (area+ scripting), and Crafting.

 

for the crafting, I have done a crafting system strongly based on NWN2 OC crafting system, except that all component and crafted items wll be SOAR specific. Also only crafted items will be able to enchanted or changed. "looted items" from the original game cannot be altered with crafting. It will be easy to spot, crafted items/materials have NWN2 icons, while "original stuff from TOB/SOA" will all have TOB/SOA icons. We have altered the drops tables from NWN2, so only ours items drops (original stuff + crafting component)

 

 

For TOB, I have done something fully operational and almost fully polished until the end of Saradush. My estimation for doing the whole TOB in NWN2 is between 1 and 2 year of work. I am al ready at 4 or 5 months of work on it.

 

I think I won' t post any screens, or spoilers, I'll just give report of advancement of my work.


  • ArtemisJ and rjshae like this

#15
Shallina

Shallina
  • Members
  • 1,011 posts

And a second post to speak about the most important new so no one can miss it :

 

We have 2 new scripters on the team who are like Drew and me, poeple who work in the software industry in real life. So SOAR has more scripting than BGR, but we have more scripting power.

 

They will work with Drew on the SOA part of the game at the moment.



#16
Luminus

Luminus
  • Members
  • 456 posts

That was the big issue with BG1, it has a ton of "filler" areas. Huge, mostly empty areas with a couple NPCs and some loot hidden.
But creating all those areas from scratch in 3D and detailing them with flowers, colors, grass etc was monstrous.

With BG2 it's the reverse. All the areas almost are compressed with ton of detail, quests, npcs, items, doors etc.
Same with ToB which has even more areas and even less side stuff.

The biggest obstacle I think is creating all the custom details from scratch. BG1 had pretty basic "fantasy" stuff.
BG2 and ToB are far more exotic with it's areas. Like the kua-toa or the temples, or Irenicus or Amelyssan and the Slayer/Ravager.

Also it's great to hear that there are more scripters helping. BG2 + ToB have ton of quests, especially in Athkatla.



#17
Arkalezth

Arkalezth
  • Members
  • 3,186 posts
Thanks for the update. I thought crafting would be the same as in the original SOA: Find parts of an item and bring them to the smith to put it all together. Will this be implemented on top of the other crafting?

#18
Shallina

Shallina
  • Members
  • 1,011 posts

Of course, everything from SOA/TOB will be in. But since in 3 ed crafting is an important part we will add crafting possibility based on 3ed rules. It will be independant from the rest of the game. which mean you can 't enchant "normal items", only crafted one by the player.



#19
kamal_

kamal_
  • Members
  • 5,235 posts
I imagine this is going to get a ton of press on release.

#20
rjshae

rjshae
  • Members
  • 4,477 posts

That was the big issue with BG1, it has a ton of "filler" areas. Huge, mostly empty areas with a couple NPCs and some loot hidden.
But creating all those areas from scratch in 3D and detailing them with flowers, colors, grass etc was monstrous.

With BG2 it's the reverse. All the areas almost are compressed with ton of detail, quests, npcs, items, doors etc.
Same with ToB which has even more areas and even less side stuff.

The biggest obstacle I think is creating all the custom details from scratch. BG1 had pretty basic "fantasy" stuff.
BG2 and ToB are far more exotic with it's areas. Like the kua-toa or the temples, or Irenicus or Amelyssan and the Slayer/Ravager.

 

A lot of that has to do with the character level. At higher levels (as in BG2 and particularly in ToB) the games have to direct the player to where the tougher opponents are located. That makes the direction and layout a lot more focused.



#21
Eguintir Eligard

Eguintir Eligard
  • Members
  • 1,832 posts
Not to be a downer but bg1 took seven years this will take so long computers won even exist when you're done.

#22
Guest_Iveforgotmypassword_*

Guest_Iveforgotmypassword_*
  • Guests

Not to be a downer but bg1 took seven years this will take so long computers won even exist when you're done.

Do you know something I don't ? Because if it means in the near future I'm going to have to battle zombie motorbike gangs that roam the wasteland in a post apocalyptic world I better start getting prepared !



#23
Luminus

Luminus
  • Members
  • 456 posts

Not to be a downer but bg1 took seven years this will take so long computers won even exist when you're done.

I'm confident it will take much less than that.



#24
andysks

andysks
  • Members
  • 1,642 posts

Well, even if it takes too much it doesn't matter. See how people still play games that are 20 or more years old. They just use other methods so that they work on window, but that means nothing. If a game is good, or a mod for that matter, it's going to be played no matter what. Check the downloads on the BG1 reloaded, on a believed dead game as NWN2. People search for such stuff, and they always will.


  • ColorsFade likes this

#25
Tchos

Tchos
  • Members
  • 5,030 posts

Well, even if it takes too much it doesn't matter. See how people still play games that are 20 or more years old.

 

Indeed, I've been playing a lot of games lately that are 20+ years old.


  • ColorsFade likes this