829 réponses à ce sujet

[Dann-J]

Magic and Knowledge give her a more Wizardry feel on the other hand.
 

 

Now that I think of it, a pure cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains would have decent spell progression AND be able to cast several arcane spells.

[Luminus]

Wouldn't an avariel be more likely to have the Air domain? Or would that be insensitive, given her clipped wings?

 

I always found the biggest impediment to having her as a party member was her annoying whining. She had a knack for waiting until you'd fully buffed and be about to engage enemies, then interrupt with a depressing rant. I'd be quickly trying to get through her conversation before my buffs ran out.

Well, per 3.5E rules, a Cleric has to be within one alignment step and have the Domains of their gods.
So, I would give her the Nature package (Animal/Plant Domains) because it fits perfect and those are useful domains and give her an animal companion.
Baervan's domains are Animal, Good, Plant, Travel, Gnome.

But beyond that, Magic and Knowledge are also nice.

About the other thing, doesn't BG2 pause while in dialogue? I never noticed that. Or maybe I was lucky and she was ranting while I was going to fight illithids.

[Luminus]

(Double post again, god damn it)

Anyway, to explain where I'm coming from, I want the direction of the NPCs to both be faithfulto their original classes and useful in combat, as that's very important for a game like BG2.

In the end, it can be changed by people but the NPCs need to be both faithful and useful in the default game than bad implementations.
(Favored Soul Quayle, Viconia with 18 CHA etc)

[Dann-J]

Magic and Knowledge give her a more Wizardry feel on the other hand.
 

 

Now that I think about it, a pure cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains would have decent spell (and turn undead) progression AND access to a few arcane spells. Plus she could cast those wizard spells in full armour without the risk of spell failure.

 

[EDIT - damn these double-posts!]

[Eguintir Eligard]

All the infinity party talks froze the game so why would you worry about buffs?

[Luminus]

Now that I think about it, a pure cleric with the Magic and Knowledge domains would have decent spell (and turn undead) progression AND access to a few arcane spells. Plus she could cast those wizard spells in full armour without the risk of spell failure.

Exactly. Nevermind that as an elf, she could use a Longbow and get Zen Archery, plus being great with DC spells.
But keep in mind that Magic and Knowledge Domains don't give her any offensive spells except Melf's Acid Arrow.

A Favored Soul Aerie with crappy STR and CON on the other hand, at best she would be able to do healing and buffing mostly and not much else and being further away from her BG2 class.

Did I say that if she picked the Animal domain, it would give her a companion?
Which you could then use a feat to get a dinosaur like a druid or ranger.

So, for Cleric and deity lore = Nature Package (Animal/Plant).
For emulating the Mage class a bit = Magic and Knowledge Domains.

[Eguintir Eligard]

good thing this is settled now for when this thing goes beta in 25 years.

[Luminus]

good thing this is settled now for when this thing goes beta in 25 years.

Discussion never hurt anyone.

BGR had 10 threads in the old Bioware forum and 60 pages on this one.

[Shallina]

 The evil modder isn 't against the Mystic Theurge class, it 's just that the Mystic theurge class doesn 't exist correctly in NWN2, and the requirements to have it work correctly are out of scope, many poeple made attempt at the Mystic theurge class since NWN2 was released, no one made it correctly for now.

 

If in 8 years many poeple tried but none succeed, it 's not beceause they are "evil modder" or beceause they don' t want to give you the mystic theurge....

 

It 's beceause there is a pretty big wall to overcomme in order for it to work correctly, that wall can be bypassed, but it's a monster work and for now I' d rather focus on making the area and events.

 

Also if we decide a class on a NPC will give stats which make the NPC not completly broke....

 

That class isn 't disabled and hidden in the NWN2 files. In the NWN2 files there is only an embryo of the 2DA required for that class to exist. But that's not even 5% of the work required.

[Arkalezth]

Also, the remakes follow the spirit of the originals, not the letter. It's pointless to try to make everything the same even if it doesn't work.
That's why Minsc was turned into a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, instead of a Ranger with heavy armor and a custom rage ability.

Bad example. Minsc has always been a barbarian and that's why his class was changed ("fixed" would be more correct), not because of mechanics or because "it doesn't work" (I have a heavily armoured ranger on a PW who would disagree). The only reason why he wasn't one in BG is because the class didn't exist, and ranger was the closest from an RP standpoint. Then the second game kept him as a ranger for consistency, even though he could, and IMO, should, have been a barbarian then.

 

An obvious alternative for Aerie that I don't think has been mentioned is just keeping her as a cleric/mage (not sure what would make more sense between wizard and sorcerer), but allowing the player to choose what to level up as, instead of forcing it to be half-half. So, taken to the extreme, she could potentially be 19/1 at level 20, instead of 10/10. I don't even know if I like this way of doing it, but I thought  I'd mention it.

 

In the end, I agree with EE about the 25 years thing.

[Luminus]

Bad example. Minsc has always been a barbarian and that's why his class was changed ("fixed" would be more correct), not because of mechanics or because "it doesn't work" (I have a heavily armoured ranger on a PW who would disagree). The only reason why he wasn't one in BG is because the class didn't exist, and ranger was the closest from an RP standpoint. Then the second game kept him as a ranger for consistency, even though he could, and IMO, should, have been a barbarian then.

 

An obvious alternative for Aerie that I don't think has been mentioned is just keeping her as a cleric/mage (not sure what would make more sense between wizard and sorcerer), but allowing the player to choose what to level up as, instead of forcing it to be half-half. So, taken to the extreme, she could potentially be 19/1 at level 20, instead of 10/10. I don't even know if I like this way of doing it, but I thought  I'd mention it.

 

In the end, I agree with EE about the 25 years thing.

Good example, because they could keep him a Ranger for continuity reasons as well. Nevermind that he calls himself a Ranger.
And depends on your build about the Ranger. With dips in other classes perhaps. With Mithral Breastplate, perhaps. With K's update and the companion "style", perhaps.

By default, no Heavy Armor Rangers don't work. Or they do if you don't care about your styles.
Same way a Monk in Full Plate works if you don't care about the Monk stuff.

Also since the protagonist ends at about level 10, this is about the level the NPCs would be.
If Aerie is set at level 10 for example, with your suggestion, she would be a 5 Cleric/5 Wizard. Or maybe 4 Cleric/4 Wizard if she is found at level 8.

It's a good idea since she won't be lagging much in either class and you can choose which path you want for her.
Cleric or Wizard and Practiced Spellcaster to fix it.
Pretty much, any combination is better than having her as a Favored Soul.

And to be realistic, SOAR will take far less than BGR. The creators said so in a previous post and they are far more experienced now.

[Dann-J]

What about having Aerie worship Gond instead of Baervan Wildwanderer? Gond is popular amongst gnomes, but allows clerics of any race (including lawful good), so no customisation of the game would be necessary in that regard. It would also justify her having some of the crafting feats when you first acquire her as a party member, increasing her usefulness.

[Luminus]

If they're going to create a "Lesser Avariel" race which is wingless, they can change the whole deity restriction easily so I don't worry about it.
There would be ton of custom things in SOAR.

I mean, they're creating heads from scratch for one.

[rjshae]

Practically speaking, if Aerie is made a Cleric/Wizard multiclass, then a player is more likely to keep leveling up in one or the other class--most likely as a Wizard--in order to maximize her spell-casting effectiveness. She'll become a poor Wizard, pathetic Cleric. You'd almost be better off creating a new Elven Adept class; giving her a subset of the Cleric and Wizard spells in a Sorcerer-like form.

 

Hmm, there could be different schools: Sun Adept, Moon Adept, and Night (Drow) Adept, each with their own pool of spells (some overlapping such as healing).

[Luminus]

Practically speaking, if Aerie is made a Cleric/Wizard multiclass, then a player is more likely to keep leveling up in one or the other class--most likely as a Wizard--in order to maximize her spell-casting effectiveness. She'll become a poor Wizard, pathetic Cleric. You'd almost be better off creating a new Elven Adept class; giving her a subset of the Cleric and Wizard spells in a Sorcerer-like form.

Nah, not really. Losing 4-5 levels of either class can be fixed with Practiced Spellcaster. I mean, Warpriest is a 5/10 casting PrC.

I like the choice of choosing to level one or the other. She was never a focused Cleric or Wizard in the originals and lagged behind them but had more versatility.
Nevermind that she can use all Wizard stuff like robes or wands etc.

Like I said, I would go with pure nature Cleric of Baervan for her or do the low level split that Arkalezth suggested.
 

Personally with all this talk I recommend they just make it pick whatever class you want for whoever you want when you meet them with a choice of options. That way nobody can moan because they chose it.

I am not sure how possible this is. They would have to create multliple copies of the NPCs with different starting classes. I guess it's possible but it's pointless really.

And we all agree that she should be some kind of Cleric. Either FS or pure or Mystic Theurge or Cleric/Wizard multi.

[Arkalezth]

Good example, because they could keep him a Ranger for continuity reasons as well.

What I mean is that he was changed into barbarian purely for flavour and RP, regardless of the mechanics.

And yes, heavily armoured rangers lose the combat style bonuses, but they still get a lot of other stuff besides that. They may not dual wield, but they're still rangers, and they work just fine. Minsc wouldn't have been any weaker if it had been built that way, just different.
 

If Aerie is set at level 10 for example, with your suggestion, she would be a 5 Cleric/5 Wizard. Or maybe 4 Cleric/4 Wizard if she is found at level 8.

Yeah, that's why I said 19/1 was a extreme example, just to illustrate my point, but it's more likely that it'd be as you describe.

[Eguintir Eligard]

 

 

And to be realistic, SOAR will take far less than BGR. The creators said so in a previous post and they are far more experienced now. 

Somehow all that experience using terrains in the nwn2 toolset is going to translate into being able to create the countless 3d custom placeables in gmax that will be needed to make a game 4 times as big in less than the 7 years the first effort took. Agreed

[Luminus]

Somehow all that experience using terrains in the nwn2 toolset is going to translate into being able to create the countless 3d custom placeables in gmax that will be needed to make a game 4 times as big in less than the 7 years the first effort took. Agreed

Sarcasm duly noted.
Let me refresh your memory.
 

Also, with the amount of experience we have with the toolset and our much improved planning (not to mention an online repository), we're looking at a significantly less amount of time than BGR's development.

Yeah, I'm going to go with the creators guess for this one, for some strange reason.
Your negativity serves no purpose. If you want to speed it up, join the team.

[Dann-J]

One person's negativity is another's realism.

 

One thing you can be sure of in any development blog is that timeframes hinted at near the start of the project will almost certainly be proven wrong down the track. Real life has a tendency to get in the way.

[Eguintir Eligard]

It's realism based on factual reasoning. The bioware team themselves took longer to make the sequel and they gained same said "experience". Calling me negative because you don't like the truth serves no purpose... The truth still exists.

I have no desire to aid such a ridiculously large project because the time frame even if the same as bg exceeds Nwn2 s own existence and possibly my lifespan

[rjshae]

 The evil modder isn 't against the Mystic Theurge class, it 's just that the Mystic theurge class doesn 't exist correctly in NWN2, and the requirements to have it work correctly are out of scope, many poeple made attempt at the Mystic theurge class since NWN2 was released, no one made it correctly for now.

 

If in 8 years many poeple tried but none succeed, it 's not beceause they are "evil modder" or beceause they don' t want to give you the mystic theurge....

 

It 's beceause there is a pretty big wall to overcomme in order for it to work correctly, that wall can be bypassed, but it's a monster work and for now I' d rather focus on making the area and events.

 

Yes, the prestige class approach doesn't appear feasible because the required 2da files and some of the entries are oriented entirely toward a single school of magic. You can't specify spells known and spells gained for both the arcane and divine classes. As you suggest, it would require a significant overhaul, assuming it's even possible.

[Luminus]

...So? Saying that this project will take forever but you're neither willing to help or encourage, helps anyone in any way?
Congratulations, you're a realist and... yeah. You just helped no one. You may as well have said that you like the color purple.

We get it, you think this will take an eternity. And no, this is not the truth.
More people might join the team (already did) and the experience will make the development more organized and efficient.

The actual truth will be revealed after it's released and we compare the time it took for one and the other.
Now, it's speculation and guesses. Nothing more.
 

I have no desire to aid such a ridiculously large project because the time frame even if the same as bg exceeds Nwn2 s own existence and possibly my lifespan

No please, don't do that. Your help would be vastly missed.

I am done responding to pointless comments. Let's get back to talking about the game.

[rjshae]

Nah, not really. Losing 4-5 levels of either class can be fixed with Practiced Spellcaster. I mean, Warpriest is a 5/10 casting PrC.

 

It's not so much the levels lost as it is the lack of spell slots and access to higher level spells. A Cleric 4/Wizard 4 only gets access to 2nd level spells, plus 5/4/3 and 4/3/2 slots. An 8th level wizard has 4/4/3/3/2 slots with access to 3rd and 4th level spells. That's not very balanced,

 

Create a race-specific class designed to provide something comparable to an AD&D cleric-wizard and then you can reasonably balance it out with the other classes. The Adept class from the DnD v3.5 DMG can provide a useful model, if it gets perked up a bit.

[Dann-J]

...So? Saying that this project will take forever but you're neither willing to help or encourage, helps anyone in any way?
Congratulations, you're a realist and... yeah. You just helped no one. You may as well have said that you like the color purple.

We get it, you think this will take an eternity. And no, this is not the truth.
More people might join the team and the experience will make the development more organized and efficient.

The actual truth will be revealed after it's released and we compare the time it took for one and the other.
Now, it's speculation and guesses. Nothing more.

 

http://en.wikipedia....hical_Man-Month