81 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

On the off chance that this isn't simply another Butterfly Effect troll thread, keep in mind that Skyrim has a very linear narrative, at least as linear as DA:O. The only difference is that there many more quest lines in Skyrim. 

 

In fact, the only time I can think of in Skyrim in which I was able to do things out of a specific order would be in Bleak Falls Barrow, picking up the Dragonstone while I'm there getting the Golden Claw and giving the aforementioned Dragonstone to one Mr. Secret-Fire. All other dungeons that are associated with main quests have arbitrary gating mechanisms in place to keep you from completing them before the linear narrative decides you are ready (Dragon Claws for instance).

[Giantdeathrobot]

As if Skyrim wasn't just as linear, if not more so, in its plots. You have the ''choice'' not to do them, whoopee doo, because I pay 60 bucks to run around collecting butterflies now do I? But when you actually do them, it's ''Do X, then do Y, then go to Z, here's your reward, kthxbye''.

 

You also had plenty of dungeons that were closed off until quest X decided you were permitted to go in.

 

Or perhaps we are supposed to take into example the wonderfully complex and engaging Radiant quest where (insert NPC) wants you to retrieve (insert item) from (insert random dungeon). Man, my game design sense is tingling.

 

Point is, if Bioware has to learn anything from Bethesda, story and storytelling are dead last, maybe behind NPC interactions.

 

Now, if OP had said Fallout New Vegas, maybe we could talk.

 

 

 

[NewBlue]

non-linear bethesda esque plots often yield underwhelming story

[Deflagratio]

[[Several Paragraphs that illustrate a fundamental misunderstanding of storytelling, plot structure and game design in general.]]

 

 

All plots are linear. That's what makes it a plot and not a random mess of unrelated events.

 

Yes, that even means Bethesda's plots... The simple fact that between The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller and Alduin's Wall, the player can run off and do their own thing doesn't mean the plot of the story isn't linear.

[mopotter]

Both developers give me the chance to make my own character and that's one of the things I want in a game.

 

I love Fall out 3, FANV, and all of the Elder Scroll games.  I do like to wander around and discover things and their games are great for that.  I also found the NV story interesting and I liked what they did with some of the companions.  Skyrim - I'm not sure I'll ever finish it.  it's on my pc with lots of fun mods and I get sidetracked with my bard who actually performs at the inn for a place to rest.  

 

BUT  I love BioWare games for story, their characters and all of the interaction you can have from a story driven game, that they do best.  I don't need a open world from them, just a really good story with great characters and at least one heroic survival ending.  

 

I am interested in seeing how they manage DAI after the story is finished.  I don't know that I will keep playing after the story is over, because I'll want to start a new character and see what other choices are available.   I like them separate, just gives me more interesting games to play for different reasons.

[cronshaw]

Bethesda rocks. You should follow their example of having nearly no linear plots whatsoever. If you were more like them, you would be almost as awesome as they.

 

I did enjoy DAO and DA2. But too many plots, felt too linear. I disliked situations where you were trapped and for all of your ungodly power, simply could not get out. Or forced into make some dismally stupid decision with no alternative. You try to do things your way, but some annoying NPC whines and screams "But thou must!"

 

No, Tamlen, I don't want to go in that freaking ruin!

No, Leske, I'm not putting on that butt ugly armor, I'm going to slap that drunk in the face until he wakes up!

No, Jowan, I don't want to do any favors for you, because you suck, and I was just introduced to you 2 minutes ago so I don't care about you. Now leave me ALONE!

No, Soris, I'm not lifting a finger for those useless elven girls, because I just started playing this game 5 minutes ago and I feel nothing for them. Therefore, no, I don't care what happens to them. Especially because they're city elves, and city elves are dumber than a box of rocks.

 

OH YES DUNCAN, TAKE ME TAKE ME TAKE ME!!!! Being a prince/princess of Orzammar/Being a second born of a noble SUCKS ROTTEN EGGS!!!! I want to leave with you NOW!!!! Let's just skip all this humiliating crap and get going!!!!!

 

NO DUNCAN, I DO NOT WANT TO DRINK DEMON GIZZARD JUICE!!!!!!!

 

NO I DO NOT WANT TO SAVE SCOTLAND, because it's full of disgusting, vile, ugly, smelly canines and idiots. All of the butthead nobles undermine you constantly and impede your efforts at every turn and refuse to help you unless you do some stupid favor for them while a bunch of demons ravage their land. They don't WANT their land saved. And I don't want to save it because it's stupid! I want to watch this dump burn. Then I'll use the ashes for my compost bin.

 

I freaking hate you Alistair/Morrigan. Every time I have to listen to your voice I want to scream. Kneel down NOW so that I may remove your empty head from your shoulders.

 

Oh and on that note, in Beth's games you can kill just about anyone you want. Like, 90% of all the NPCs in the game. In DA you hardly get to kill anybody. I want to kill more people. Killing NPCs is fun. It's like a cup of coffee without all the caffeine. Or getting drunk, but without a hangover in the morning.

 

Allow us to be the psychopaths we were meant to be. And otherwise make what choices we wish to make. Because it's more appealing to my short attention span. Replay value is multiplied, hundredfold. More lovely bits of green paper for you. Everyone wins!

How are the plots in bethesda games not linear? Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, all linear. There are no temporal shifts, no perspective shifts, no flashbacks Everything proceeds in a linear fashion from opening to conclusion. The worlds are open, which gives you a degree of freedom, but that isn't the same as the plot being non-linear. All plots and sub-plots in those games proceed in a teleological fashion. Pulp Fiction is a good example of a movie with a non-linear plot (though some may argue it has no real plot to speak of) The Usual Suspects may be a better example

[Chewin]

Bethesda and BioWare are different companies that make different games. While Bethesda focuses largely on relationship with the environment, BioWare on the other hand focuses relationship with characters. I enjoy both respective aspects of each game but I lean more on Bioware's side.

[AtreiyaN7]

I like both open-world RPGs and more story-driven ones. How about we just let BW do what they're good at and let Bethesda do what they're good at? I don't think that making things more non-linear Bethesda-style is going to improve things. They've already taken the one thing from Skyrim that I liked and incorporated it by making the environment more open (even though it's not fully open). The fact is that as much as I enjoyed Skyrim and other Bethesda games, I usually don't find the narratives in their games all that compelling overall (I mainly kept playing Skyrim because I enjoyed both the scenery and owning lots of spiffy houses - not because Alduin felt like a major world-ending threat that I was eager to confront).

[Dean_the_Young]

I tend to be biased in that I think writing compelling characters takes actual writing skill, whereas Bethesda tends to pile on the lore and then mail in the execution. I'm not averse to the idea that good characters can be written in a pure open-world game; I have just yet to see it.

 

 

 

I started FNV last night, and after 4-5 hours I can already appreciate the fame/infamy system it has going for it. Unfortunately, it seems like Obsidian was unable to shake the Bethesda curse of all NPCs being robotic, wooden dolls that faithfully deliver all dialogue lines as if my face were a cue card. If the goal of Fallout is to suggest that the war has destroyed everyone's soul and turned them into ghosts pointlessly meandering their respective towns, then bravo. Otherwise it's difficult for me to really give a **** about these people. Maybe that will change once I start meeting the major NPCs of the game.

 

For me, the appeal of a story like FNV is taking lots of little story fragments and putting them into an overarching experience. If a story is something to cover the content, Bioware's style is a tent of canvas propped up by key poles while a Bethesda-style world setting is a quilt held together by different small patches. It's not as big or high as the tent, but it can be just as impressive.

 

(And, honestly, I always got the cue card feel from Bioware games as well. It wasn't until the much maligned 'cinematic' focus of DA2 and ME3 that conversations felt appreciably alive for me. Bioware can be just as guilty in the 'stand facing eachother and wait for dialogue prompt' feel.

[Gtdef]

I prefer the open world games, but to be honest, most of them don't work on the level I want them to. Comparing F3 to FNV, I vastly prefer the first because you start very weak, you are betrayed and alone, you have to deal with metro tunnels filled with mines and zombies, bandits scattered around in camps, talk about "vampires", all of them right out of the gate. Plus the first town is full of psychos worshiping an atomic bomb. It's a pretty scary experience.

 

FNV is too crowded with friendly/neutral people, everyone belongs in a faction, they are mostly polite and try to help you. I like FNV, but it is exactly what it seems to be, an anachronistic western, while fallout 3 feels like survival horror.

 

Also this is where Elder Scrolls fail for me as well. Walking around the world of Skyrim feels like a chore. No preparation, no sense of adventure. If the dragon comes, kill it or walk away. If the big tiger comes same. To reach that level in Fallout 3 takes a lot of time and if you play it for the first time, you count the bullets left on the hunting rifle. When they end, something bad is going to happen.

 

Risen is an incredible game at creating this atmosphere. All the enemies are dangerous. You feel like you need to find friends and your choices are either bandits, or join an order that seems to force every man found out of the city gates into their ranks.

[movieguyabw]

The thing with open world sandbox games is there isn't necessarily any reason to complete them.

 

I've sunk probably as much time into Morrowind and Skyrim as I have into Dragon Age Origins.  In Origins, I stopped a Blight, spared the Architect, defeated a Harvester, and said goodbye to Morrigan as she left through the Eluvian.

 

In Morrowind and Skyrim I ran around, killed wildlife, and picked fights with random NPCs I thought I could take.  Oh, and in Morrowind I contracted vampirism.

 

I have yet to get farther than the first quest in both games.  However, I am around level 40 in Skyrim (and maybe more in Morrowind, idk)

 

So while I love the Elder Scrolls games (and don't get me wrong, I really do love them) I actually prefer the types of RPGs Bioware has created in the past: just linear enough to keep me on task, but still open enough to where I don't feel I've had total agency taken away from me. 

[Seraphim24]

The sole reason I am interested in Bioware games is because they haven't caved in entirely to the open world trend. Open world usually just means starved of the scary controversial stuff like characters and story and thematic intensity, it's just a bunch of nice rocks and trees that no one could possibly have a problem with overall. 

 

The best "open world" game I've ever played was Morrowind, and yet it was because all the side quests are amazing in terms of story content. I did exactly one quest on the main quest and was bored because they put no effort into it. Therefore, I rate it equal to most JRPGs. 

 

There is no difference to me between a great story you experience in a side direction with a paper thin main quest and a great story you experience just in a forward direction with paper thin side quests. The only difference is your trajectory. A game with great side and main quests is just two linear games in one.

 

It strikes me as a faddish thing that advantages developers who don't have the core competency to create interesting characters or story. A part of me died when Zelda U was announced that way. Hopefully their world is more of a "Bioware" open world though.

 

Edit: Sort of what the person above me is saying basically.

[PCThug]

I usually play open world style games obsessively for a week before abandoning them forever. I prefer the pull of a story and interesting characters and I have no problem accepting the sacrifices in terms of content that come with that style of game.

[Tevinter Rose]

I love Bethesda & Obsidian games like Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, and Skyrim. I also love dragon age origins and dragon age 2. Bioware is better with characters but Bethesda is better with lone adventures in an open world. The Fallout series is a masterpiece. I personally find myself playing Bethesda games more, I love to get lost looking for adventures and I like how open ended everything is. But they're both great companies that have different game styles and I look forward to playing more games from both.

[Sylvius the Mad]

All plots are linear. That's what makes it a plot and not a random mess of unrelated events.

I'd actually prefer if the games contained primarily a group of unrelated events. Then the "plot" of any givem playthrough would be assembled on the fly based on the player's choices, and there would be no debate about whether a character was being railroaded.

That's all a plot is - a series of events that takes place in a specific order. We only perceive it as linear if it doesn't appesr as though we have alternatives.

So, they could give us alternatives, and then these complaints go away.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Ugh, it'd be a nightmare. Can you imagine who Bioware's writers would be if you told them that virtually all parts of the plot must be open to sequence breaking, and that every companion needs to be killable at virtually any point after meeting them face-to-face?

 

There are a lot of structural differences between Bioware and Bethesda games, and they wouldn't translate over too well.

i wouldn't want BW to create main plot. only chars and their story arcs. and if char dies for some reason (by plot or PC)... boo hoo, who cares? the story goes on, if char is made to be a plot device - there should be alternatives, like... not using killable objects? give me a ion cannon to obliterate life or whatever, cuz that's apparently what i want to do in the game, killing NPCs and whatnot.

 

open world and good plot aren't mutualy exclusive. dividing the story into smaller chapters, giving multiple ways to achieve some goal or even different goals. i've never seen a game that has done that and probably never will.

why? because increasing replayability by branching/developing parallel stories

1. would be a pain in the neck without serious concept/tools/engine overhaul;

2. imagine VO sessions;

3. there is pretty strong relation between replayability and story length. and story lenght requirement is easier/faster to fulfill, and replayability is tolerable/sufficient with changing enviorments/random quest generators/branching leading from vertex A to B by using alternate routes (two or even one additional vertices)

 

i'm not a fan of Bethesda games (with Morrowind as a fine exception, Tribunal is awesome). i find them boring storywise (F:NV showed me that isn't the flaw of open world games). then again BW games are too claustrophobic for my taste (i love exploration in ME1, shame they got rid of it in the following games), plot - predictable yet engaging, characters are the best BW's feature. thus i see DA:I as some sort of hybrid - combining those two worlds (almost unlimited exploration, multidimensional characters and somewhat fun story). whether that experiment is successful - we shall see in November.

[StrangeStrategy]

Bethesda rocks. You should follow their example of having nearly no linear plots whatsoever. If you were more like them, you would be almost as awesome as they.

 

I did enjoy DAO and DA2. But too many plots, felt too linear. I disliked situations where you were trapped and for all of your ungodly power, simply could not get out. Or forced into make some dismally stupid decision with no alternative. You try to do things your way, but some annoying NPC whines and screams "But thou must!"

 

No, Tamlen, I don't want to go in that freaking ruin!

No, Leske, I'm not putting on that butt ugly armor, I'm going to slap that drunk in the face until he wakes up!

No, Jowan, I don't want to do any favors for you, because you suck, and I was just introduced to you 2 minutes ago so I don't care about you. Now leave me ALONE!

No, Soris, I'm not lifting a finger for those useless elven girls, because I just started playing this game 5 minutes ago and I feel nothing for them. Therefore, no, I don't care what happens to them. Especially because they're city elves, and city elves are dumber than a box of rocks.

 

OH YES DUNCAN, TAKE ME TAKE ME TAKE ME!!!! Being a prince/princess of Orzammar/Being a second born of a noble SUCKS ROTTEN EGGS!!!! I want to leave with you NOW!!!! Let's just skip all this humiliating crap and get going!!!!!

 

NO DUNCAN, I DO NOT WANT TO DRINK DEMON GIZZARD JUICE!!!!!!!

 

NO I DO NOT WANT TO SAVE SCOTLAND, because it's full of disgusting, vile, ugly, smelly canines and idiots. All of the butthead nobles undermine you constantly and impede your efforts at every turn and refuse to help you unless you do some stupid favor for them while a bunch of demons ravage their land. They don't WANT their land saved. And I don't want to save it because it's stupid! I want to watch this dump burn. Then I'll use the ashes for my compost bin.

 

I freaking hate you Alistair/Morrigan. Every time I have to listen to your voice I want to scream. Kneel down NOW so that I may remove your empty head from your shoulders.

 

Oh and on that note, in Beth's games you can kill just about anyone you want. Like, 90% of all the NPCs in the game. In DA you hardly get to kill anybody. I want to kill more people. Killing NPCs is fun. It's like a cup of coffee without all the caffeine. Or getting drunk, but without a hangover in the morning.

 

Allow us to be the psychopaths we were meant to be. And otherwise make what choices we wish to make. Because it's more appealing to my short attention span. Replay value is multiplied, hundredfold. More lovely bits of green paper for you. Everyone wins!

 

I agree. I would have never went into the creepy ruins that appeared out of nowhere and apparently has a demon in it according to the shems.

Slapping a drunk till he wakes up and making him fight would result in a loss... He'd be hungover.

 

Jowan was so whiny, I always report him to Irving and he tells me to go along with it... So its not as linear as you think. You just didn't explore all your options?

 

Seriously? I mean... Seriously? You DON'T want to go rescue innocent people who got abducted? Not even Shianni? ... You're a bad person.

 

You don't have to be enthusiastic about being a warden. Duncan will conscript you even if you refuse to become one, even if you're Dalish. You don't have a choice drinking the Darkspawn blood; You saw what happened to Jory, c'mon now. Are you a troll?

 

So, you think getting rid of the main plot will make the game better. Yup, definitely a troll.

 

 

Seriously? Bethesda is full of linear plots... You're definitely trolling, but I'll bite. You have to work with Delphine no matter what, you HAVE to become a werewolf and kill werewolf-slayers just because. You can't join the silver hand. You can kill most NPCs, except then you'll ruin all the questlines and break your game. The main quest consists of "Kill some dragons, work with annoying Delphine and go kill dragons." Its the worst storytelling. I'm playing through Skyrim right now, and even though I love the game I realize it has a horrible story.

Go play Grand Theft Auto. That's more your style I think.

[OriginOfWaves]

Skyrim's plots were very linear OP. you have to fight Alduin. you have to pick a side in the Civil War etc. and don't get me started on that piece of nonsense that were radiant quests. 

 

Plots are by nature linear, there are no non-linear plots.

 

yes you can do what you what and kill who you want in Skyrim and in process screw up multiple quest lines, that have scripts that don't fire correctly half the time. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game but only because mods made it playable and enjoyable. that thing that Bethesda launched was a nightmare before moders got their hands on it.

[KotorEffect3]

Just because you can run off and do your own thing doesn't mean that the questlines in Skyrim aren't linear.  They are extremely linear.  Even the civil war questline is pretty linear.  Taking over the rift involves the same thing as taking over the reach.  You just do it in different parts of the map depending what side you picked.  But you always blackmail the Jarl's steward, ambush a supply wagon, and then take over the opposing faction's fort.

 

This isn't the first time I have seen some Bethesda fanboy come on here and claim that Bioware should do the same exact thing as Bethesda does which is absurd.  Just because they used some inspiration from TES when it comes to large open level design doesn't mean they are going to straight up copy them and they shouldn't either.  DA's strengths are in it's narrative, party based combat system, and character development.  Skyrim has none of those.  I love Skyrim but when I want to play Dragon Age I want to play Dragon Age.

 

In fact it is easy to be playing Skyrim and forget about Alduin altogether.  Not exactly compelling storytelling there.

[fabio012]

Skyrim is boring.

[Nimpe]

Glad to see the Butterfly effect again still peppering in her undying hatred for Alistair everywhere she goes ...

[Maria Caliban]

The thing with open world sandbox games is there isn't necessarily any reason to complete them.

I don't see that as inherently bad.

According to Steam, I have 100+ hours in Skyrim and I've never completed the main plot. In fact, I don't believe I've even finished half of the whole 'dragons returning' story. The same is true for Fallout: New Vegas.

Yet I'd say they're both entertaining games with solid stories and that I'm satisfied with my experiences with them.

[movieguyabw]

I don't see that as inherently bad.

According to Steam, I have 100+ hours in Skyrim and I've never completed the main plot. In fact, I don't believe I've even finished half of the whole 'dragons returning' story. The same is true for Fallout: New Vegas.

Yet I'd say they're both entertaining games with solid stories and that I'm satisfied with my experiences with them.

 

It's not inherently bad.

 

I'd consider autodialogue a problem with having a voiced protagonist in an RPG, as well.  I don't think that's inherently bad though, either.  Sometimes it helps keep the flow of the narrative going.  I still enjoy games with voiced RPG protagonists - I'd just personally prefer silent ones.  You tend to get more dialogue options, and autodialogue isn't a thing.

 

 

That being said, in a game like Dragon Age, where we really do need to complete the main quest in order to affect the worldstate of future games; it wouldn't be a good idea to open the game up so much that there's not necessarily any incentive to finish the game. 

 

As I said, I thoroughly enjoyed the Elder Scrolls games as well.  I enjoy Grand Theft Auto now and then, as well.  I don't dislike sandbox games.  I just personally never have any incentive to do any of the missions.  I just run around and cause mayhem, completely forgetting about Alduin, or that I have to deliver a letter to some guy in Balmora, or anything else. 

[Mirrman70]

quick question... am I weird in that I can enjoy both Bioware games and Betheda games with near equal passion? I mean why does it seem like so many people just want one type of game to exist?

[KotorEffect3]

No it isn't weird.  I love the TES series and I love the DA series.  I like medieval fantasy and both series offer me that but with different styles and philosophies.  It is good to have variety.