545 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Exactly, the Dalish was chosen for simply "reasons". I have yet to hear a good enough one for being exclusively Dalish. 

Not that surprising, as we haven't seen the game yet.

[Icy Magebane]

Exactly, the Dalish was chosen for simply "reasons". I have yet to hear a good enough one for being exclusively Dalish. 

She just gave you a great reason.  Unless the City Elf is serving drinks to the people at the peace conference who actually matter, it's hard for me to imagine one being involved.

[jlb524]

Exactly, the Dalish was chosen for simply "reasons". I have yet to hear a good enough one for being exclusively Dalish. 

 

They've given us very little info on character backgrounds so I'm sure there's a reason.

[MisterJB]

I don't think the Chantry would necessarily leave it at that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if templars were searching peoples' homes for evidence of Creator worship for quite a few years after that.

Oh, can we do that? We're the Inquisition, after all.

I want to do that.

[Kalamah]

The "moral superiority" isn't referring to the Dalish themselves but is from posters who think that the Dalish were nothing but innocent victims. Victims, yes. Innocent, very doubtful. 

 

Who says I don't judge humans with the same standards? I know I didn't.

Again, no one but you is framing things this way.

 

Also? You're shifting the goalposts again. Now the Dalish must be innocent victims.

 

Seems rather like you want the Dalish to conform to some sort of arbitrary standards.

 

As for judging humans by the same standards... you have yet to do so.

[Samahl]

You're missing my point.   Just because the Chantry are interested in active conversion doesn't mean you really have to convert.   You just do your duty, turn up and chant a few versus, if at all because there doesn't seem to be a set requirement for attendance, and then go home and do your real devotions.    You don't have to truly believe in the Maker to keep the Chantry happy, just look as though you do.    If your religion means that much to you, you will keep it going no matter what.   In fact considering the elves are segregated in alienages, away from humans who might snitch on them, it would actually be easier to maintain an underground faith.   Yet the city elves did not.    This suggests they were not particularly devoted to the Creators in the first place.

 

I'm sure enslaved Africans willingly gave up their culture too. That their white masters, whom they were wholly dependent on, considered their religious beliefs and traditions (among other things) savage and inferior had absolutely nothing to do with it, right?

 

Both Native Americans and black slaves were forced to assimilate into white Christian society. They were punished for not speaking English, and they were given English names. They were forced to attend church. Anti-elf attitudes are endemic to Andrastian human society, which is why the only way for the elves to keep elven culture alive is to remove themselves from that society completely. When society continually pushes a message, it's difficult to keep it from overtaking you to some degree.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She just gave you a great reason.  Unless the City Elf is serving drinks to the people at the peace conference who actually matter, it's hard for me to imagine one being involved.

There is no reason the Dalish would be a Chantry-Mage peace conference at all, so in your example being a City Elf makes more sense. 

 

 

Not that surprising, as we haven't seen the game yet.

They've given us very little info on character backgrounds so I'm sure there's a reason.

But until I hear them explain it, I see no good enough reason. I'm not going to take it on faith. 

[Hellion Rex]

Again, no one but you is framing things this way.

 

Also? You're shifting the goalposts again. Now the Dalish must be innocent victims.

 

Seems rather like you want the Dalish to conform to some sort of arbitrary standards.

 

As for judging humans by the same standards... you have yet to do so.

Bolded 1: I was, as well.

 

 

Bolded 2: Clearly you haven't been paying attention to Sasha talk about the Chevaliers before.

[Tevinter Rose]

I think the Dalish are bamf. They understand what it takes to survive. They are constantly being hunted and they have no help/alliances but they still hold on to their traditions and don't even entertain the idea of surrender. I'm looking forward to playing as a Dalish mage inquisitor. I like city elves too but I don't find their background/origin as compelling.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah. Also? The friction between the Dalish and city elves is actually very realistic, and while it makes my eye twitch when I see it in the games because I want to go into lecture mode about why neither has any reason to trust the other, I understand why it's a thing. The Dalish attitude toward city elves is due to viewing them as collaborators, and while it's unfair of them to assume every city elf is a potential traitor by default, it's also rather reasonable because city elves have been raised to not even trust each other and to get ahead by bringing each other down.

 

The city elves in contrast have been raised on human lies about the Dalish, as well as feeling the more subtle effects of direct human oppression that deprive them of their own culture and identity. Thus, they aren't wrong to view the Dalish with bitterness because from their perspective the Dalish are free in ways they can hardly imagine, and they resent that the Dalish don't trust them because they have no control over how the humans treat them. It's a complex tangle of being unable to relate to each other as elves because of their very different experiences and perspectives.

That's a good point... I mean, we, as players have access to a wider perspective than one elf sitting in the slums could possibly hope for.  If your people have lived at the mercy of humans for generations, even the limited freedoms the Dalish have might seem like a pipe dream.  It would be easier to believe and accept that they are barbarians... it might even be too devastating to imagine elves who are born into that kind of freedom (as limited as it may be), and thus certain elves might cling to the negative rumors about the Dalish out of jealousy.  It's hard to say.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again, no one but you is framing things this way.

 

Also? You're shifting the goalposts again. Now the Dalish must be innocent victims.

 

Seems rather like you want the Dalish to conform to some sort of arbitrary standards.

 

As for judging humans by the same standards... you have yet to do so.

No, Xil said that the Dalish have only ever acted in defense. That means they've never been the aggressors, thus morally in the right and innocent to the events that unfolded. 

 

And fine, I definitely think Orlais and the Chantry went too far with the Dales. They were right to defend themselves from the attack and remove the Dales' ability to make war, but subjugating the elves to the Alienages or being vagrants was uncalled for. I have never disputed such. 

[Kalamah]

Bolded 1: I was, as well.

 

 

Bolded 2: Clearly you haven't been paying attention to Sasha talk about the Chevaliers before.

1. The current discussion is what I was responding to.

 

2. Was that in this thread? If not, irrelevant. Besides which, the particular goalpost shifting doesn't come out when it's humans, because they're the default in Thedas. There's no double standard in play when judging humans on their actions compared to other humans, because it's recognized that bad humans are individuals who are bad first, humans second. When it's elves, it's more about "these elves hold views I don't like, therefore..." than recognizing that elves are individuals too.

[Icy Magebane]

But until I hear them explain it, I see no good enough reason. I'm not going to take it on faith. 

This is a fair point.  Rather than rattle off theories and possibilities for why a Dalish would be there, I'll just wait and see what they have planned.  For all we know, all of the non-human races could just be bodyguards or servants who got lucky and wound up with superpowers after surviving the explosion (or w/e).

[TK514]

She just gave you a great reason.  Unless the City Elf is serving drinks to the people at the peace conference who actually matter, it's hard for me to imagine one being involved.

 

City Elves can be members of the Chantry and the Templars.  There's every reason for a City Elf to be at a peace conference involving either of those factions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

City Elves can be members of the Chantry and the Templars.  There's every reason for a City Elf to be at a peace conference involving either of those factions.

I would have loved to be an Elven Templar. Now that would be a new perspective. Though with Templar being a specialization, I get why they didn't. 

[Hellion Rex]

I would have loved to be a Elven Templar. Now that would be a new perspective. Though with Templar being a specialization, I get why they didn't. 

Exactly! I would have loved to do that. Elven Templar or a City Elf Apostate. Damn, that would have been a lot of fun.

[Kalamah]

No, Xil said that the Dalish have only ever acted in defense. That means they've never been the aggressors, thus morally in the right and innocent to the events that unfolded. 

 

And fine, I definitely think Orlais and the Chantry went too far with the Dales. They were right to defend themselves from the attack and remove the Dales' ability to make war, but subjugating the elves to the Alienages or being vagrants was uncalled for. I have never disputed such. 

Okay, I'll try my best to explain.

 

The way I see it, Dalish being aggressors in statistically only a handful of situations compared to the overall marginalization they face at the hands of humans is not comparable, and certainly not "proof" that they brought it on themselves. Which is why your stance is rubbing wrong. The standards you want to hold Dalish to are unreasonable in both bootstraps and realism. It's like saying one elf who throws a stone at a human and injures or kills them is responsible for humans purging an alienage in retaliation, which also ignores the inherent power imbalance in effect.

[jlb524]

But until I hear them explain it, I see no good enough reason. I'm not going to take it on faith. 

 

Would you feel the same if the elves were all city elves?

 

 

City Elves can be members of the Chantry and the Templars.  There's every reason for a City Elf to be at a peace conference involving either of those factions.

 

Has it been confirmed that all Inquisitor backgrounds would actually be attending the peace conference?

[Icy Magebane]

City Elves can be members of the Chantry and the Templars.  There's every reason for a City Elf to be at a peace conference involving either of those factions.

Well, since the human Inquisitor has been revealed as a member of the nobility, I was working under the assumption that every race would be somebody with at least a measure of political clout.  I also don't think it would make sense for Bioware to start us off as members of either the Chantry or Templars, since one of the main issues in the game revolves around the conflict between those groups and the mages.

 

But as I said, I'm willing to wait and see before I decide whether or not this was justified.

[Hellion Rex]

Has it been confirmed that all Inquisitor backgrounds would actually be attending the peace conference?

What we know is that all of this will be there, though we don't know if they're all "attending" per se. Plus, I think they said that the mages will have a slightly unique background.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Would you feel the same if the elves were all city elves?

Yes, actually. While there are several ways a City Elf would be in attendance, I wouldn't want to rob Dalish fans the opportunity to be a Dalish. 

[TK514]

Well, since the human Inquisitor has been revealed as a member of the nobility, I was working under the assumption that every race would be somebody with at least a measure of political clout.  I also don't think it would make sense for Bioware to start us off as members of either the Chantry or Templars, since one of the main issues in the game revolves around the conflict between those groups and the mages.

 

But as I said, I'm willing to wait and see before I decide whether or not this was justified.

 

You bring up an interesting question;

 

What reason does a human noble from the Free Marches have for being at a peace conference between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages that is being held in Ferelden?  That's a bit far afield both factionally and geographically.  Maybe they're on a pilgrimage to the Ashes?  Should be interesting to find out.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish won't have anyone in the right position either. 

 

And hey, if I am able to I am. But I'm stuck being a good little Dalish who never left the clan. 

 

It might be an issue of the elves in the Dales rebelling to free themselves from the Orlesian occupation, given the massacre of thousands at Halamshiral, and the civil war between Celene and Gaspard. Briala's network of elves looking to exploit the civil war to dislodge the elven populace from Orlesian tyranny might be another factor in the decision. It's difficult to say with any certainty at this point why Dalish was chosen for the elven background.

 

And how marginalized is the City Elf viewpoint? We have yet to get one as a companion, since Zevran was a Crow since he was 7 so didn't really grow up in it, and Sera will most likely be similar with the Friends of Red Jenny than regular City Elf.

 

And again, I don't see the Dalish as awful people. They have some terrible policies that sour my perception of them, but so does every other group.

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that the elven perspectives, in general, have been marginalized. However, since the specific issue that was addressed (in the post I was replying to) was the Dalish, I specified them in my retort.

 

The "moral superiority" isn't referring to the Dalish themselves but is from posters who think that the Dalish were nothing but innocent victims. Victims, yes. Innocent, very doubtful. 

 

Who says I don't judge humans with the same standards? I know I didn't.

 

Considering you claimed that I was one of the people who did that, you couldn't be further from the truth. I've read people address that the Dalish aren't perfect, but when issues come up where the Dalish are targets, whether it's the criminalization of their religion, humans driving the clan off their land, templars pursuing them to capture or kill their mages, or Andrastians threatening the clan to convert, then people are going to talk about the trials and tribulations that the Dalish have to deal with.

[Icy Magebane]

I would have loved to be an Elven Templar. Now that would be a new perspective. Though with Templar being a specialization, I get why they didn't. 

I'm going to be honest... this was my first choice of character.  A Dalish Templar seems odd, although the character might simply see it as a way to more effectively deal with fade creatures and mages.  On the other hand, there's nothing preventing a Dalish from fully converting to worship of the Maker once they see the Chantry and Andrastian culture up close...  the rp possibilities are still there, it's just that the background is slightly less flexible than it could have been.

[Hellion Rex]

You bring up an interesting question;

 

What reason does a human noble from the Free Marches have for being at a peace conference between the Chantry, Templars, and Mages that is being held in Ferelden?  That's a bit far afield both factionally and geographically.  Maybe they're on a pilgrimage to the Ashes?  Should be interesting to find out.

I initially thought as maybe a guard for a Grand Cleric going to the conference, but wouldn't they use Templars for that?