545 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

It seems like the Chantry will be in charge regardless of what the Warden did there.

 

Apparently so, given how Kolgrim's group was supposed to gain even more converts if the Warden sided with him, and then there's the issue of the High Dragon they believe to be Andraste reincarnate.

 

Maybe that part of the temple is usually sealed off but will be open during the peace conference and this provides an opportunity for a Dalish to sneak in?

 

That could be a possibility. The recent picture with an elven mage Inquisitor does include text mentioning House DuRellion, and the scene could be taking place in the beginning of the story, which may place it in the location of the Urn (or in close proximity to it).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There was a time when I thought most posters unfairly put the dailish on some kind of moral pedestal for being victims. These days I find the reverse to be far more common. And only the city elves get the victim cred.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's incredibly thin logic. First, you're claiming that Andraste's cult only gave the Dales on a loan, instead of transferring ownership. Second, the Chantry being any kind of successor to Andraste was invented out of whole cloth by Drakon to give his empire a religious mandate for conquest. And third, the Chantry was already making aggressive moves against the Dales.

 

"Thin" Logic? It Establish the context of the little argument you have here.

 

You have no proof nor notion that the Cult of Andraste actually granted the Sovereign rights of the Dales to the elves or not, because certainly no charter between the two parties has ever come to light during the series, at best you'd be arguing speculation here. As would i but that's the point, i am not the one making assurances of Invaders and the evils of an incoming foreign culture.

 

Drakon's motives are speculative and irrelevant here, the point being however that the Chantry can trace it from the cult of Andraste to the modern age thus if any entity was entitled to speak for said now defunct religious body, it would be the Chantry.

 

The Chantry having representatives of its Faith within the Dales is making aggressive moves now? A few thousand templars streaming into the Dales, i might see as an issue yes, but a handful of priests? Really? Your going to make that argument?

[Master Warder Z_]

And here we have an example of cherrypicking context to suit an obtuse viewpoint.

 

Funny how we both can think the same thing on the same subject? 

[Kalamah]

Funny how we both can think the same thing on the same subject? 

I don't suppose you realize that a "checkmate" cannot happen when one side's argument amounts to "but the humans are obviously right because they successfully colonized the elves" and act like that justifies everything because the elves might have tossed the first stone.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't suppose you realize that a "checkmate" cannot happen when one side's argument amounts to "but the humans are obviously right because they successfully colonized the elves" and act like that justifies everything because the elves might have tossed the first stone.

 

Of course i realize that, my argument cannot be vindicated because it goes against the grain of what i'd assume a good majority of people here think on the subject but that said my argument is a bit more then that. It's in essence "The Dales started a war it shouldn't have, and ultimately lost the right to govern themselves as a nation, Humanity was right because it victorious and that is the only context that victory can be obtained."

 

Because as far as i am concerned? By this point, the elves lost whatever pity or compassion i might have given them through their sheer indifferent apathy. So i respond to their fate similarly. 

[jlb524]

That could be a possibility. The recent picture with an elven mage Inquisitor does include text mentioning House DuRellion, and the scene could be taking place in the beginning of the story, which may place it in the location of the Urn (or in close proximity to it).

 

I think that screen is from an early point in the game but not the prologue (since the Inquisition is mentioned).  One of your first tasks as Inquisitor may be to return to the site of the Breach incident to look for more evidence.

 

Edit:  also, it doesn't seem the Chantry owns that land since since it was lent to Justinia for the pilgrimage/peace summit.

[TK514]

Yeah. The key to actually holding both sides to the same standards is taking into account the context, not ignoring it whenever convenient. The Chantry are explicitly colonizers who use the convenient excuses of their religious superiority to enact violence upon "heathens" and then justify it with a thinly veiled Manifest Destiny. And really, viewing the Dalish response to that as anything but reacting to a very real threat to their culture and lands is ridiculous. What should they have done? Welcomed the humans into their midst and just given up their homelands without a fight?

 

Colonizers in what way?  And is it a 'convenient excuse' if they actually believe it?

[LobselVith8]

I think that screen is from an early point in the game but not the prologue (since the Inquisition is mentioned).  One of your first tasks as Inquisitor may be to return to the site of the Breach incident to look for more evidence.

 

The Inquisition seems to be created prior to the protagonist becoming the Inquisitor, since it's been mentioned elsewhere as Divine Justinia's "failsafe"; it would also explain the heavily Andrastian composition of the organization, such as Leliana and Cullen, and why the organization is named after an ancient Adrastian group who later became the Seekers of Truth and the Order of Templars because of Drakon.

 

You could be right; the elven Inquisitor might return to where the cataclysm took place. Hopefully, his or her clan wasn't anywhere near the blast radius.

[TK514]

Apparently so, given how Kolgrim's group was supposed to gain even more converts if the Warden sided with him, and then there's the issue of the High Dragon they believe to be Andraste reincarnate.

 

 

That could be a possibility. The recent picture with an elven mage Inquisitor does include text mentioning House DuRellion, and the scene could be taking place in the beginning of the story, which may place it in the location of the Urn (or in close proximity to it).

 

House DuRellion sounds Orlesian...Oh ho.  Marquis DuRellion is one of the VA contest characters, apparently.  That suggests somewhere in Orlais rather than the Frostbacks in Ferelden.

[Kalamah]

Alrighty, I'm done entertaining colonizer perspectives because at this point I'd just be repeating what's been said already.

 

The fact of the matter is the Dalish are under no obligation to be sufficiently passive and unthreatening toward humans to make up for something that happened centuries ago, not to mention that said event is contested. To believe only one side is to say the other side is lying when we have no way of knowing if the truth is somewhere in between or not. Furthermore, the Dalish aren't required to conform to a standard of behavior that maintains the status quo, whether to earn sympathy from humans who wouldn't support them anyway due to the independent actions of one individual or some other convenient excuse, or to become "innocent victims" that are worthy of support.

 

Quite frankly, there is nothing anyone can say to folks who are determined to stick their fingers in their ears, and this "debate" only started because of folks with deficiencies in comprehension who support the continued brutal marginalization of a people for having the nerve to resist violent assimilation and occupation. If you really think the humans have some sort of justified excuse for their collective actions against the elves, then you have been willfully ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Elves aren't even that popular to begin with.  They don't need 2 variations... by this logic we should also have Vashoth, Tal'Vashoth, Qunari, Human Commoner, Casteless, and Dwarven Noble options.  This isn't Origins.

They don't need it, sure. But then we don't need race or gender selection either. But Bioware still gave it to us because they like giving options. 

 

 

I think it would be less likely for a city elf to be in that position.

 

They may also have went with the Dalish Inquisitor to provide more perspective of that viewpoint in this game (perhaps we don't see many Dalish otherwise).

 

A Dalish clan in Ferelden may also be affected by the Mage/Templar war and this could be the Inquisitor's clan.  They could have been caught in the crossfire or possibly even aided the mages.  This would also explain why the Dalish were invited to the peace conference though it would likely just be the Keeper and the First (if the Inquisitor is a mage) or the Keeper and a bodyguard (for non-mage Inquisitor).

With one location being the Dales and the events of TME and them having their decade gathering, I highly doubt we won't see any Dalish. 

 

Thing is though, the result of that is what we have now: elves are brutally marginalized. In no way is this remotely a justified outcome, let alone equal. The sticking point here is really that there was a relatively equal playing field in the beginning, but that is no longer the case and hasn't been the case for centuries now. And also? When exactly would you consider the elves to have earned the right to resist occupation and marginalization? Because from what I'm reading, you keep moving the goalposts and arbitrary standards to keep the status quo as is for what is essentially a centuries old grudge that neither side even remembers in detail anymore.

I have not been moving anything. And have always argued that elves should be treated equally instead of being marginalized. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I hold both sides to equal standards... but the Chantry definitely showed its hostile intent and military penetrations first.

Prove it. Last I checked, Red Crossing is the first recorded battle of the Dales-Orlais War, and that was the Dalish being the hostiles. 

[Xilizhra]

Prove it. Last I checked, Red Crossing is the first recorded battle of the Dales-Orlais War, and that was the Dalish being the hostiles. 

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It might be an issue of the elves in the Dales rebelling to free themselves from the Orlesian occupation, given the massacre of thousands at Halamshiral, and the civil war between Celene and Gaspard. Briala's network of elves looking to exploit the civil war to dislodge the elven populace from Orlesian tyranny might be another factor in the decision. It's difficult to say with any certainty at this point why Dalish was chosen for the elven background.

 

 

I've repeatedly pointed out that the elven perspectives, in general, have been marginalized. However, since the specific issue that was addressed (in the post I was replying to) was the Dalish, I specified them in my retort.

 

 

Considering you claimed that I was one of the people who did that, you couldn't be further from the truth. I've read people address that the Dalish aren't perfect, but when issues come up where the Dalish are targets, whether it's the criminalization of their religion, humans driving the clan off their land, templars pursuing them to capture or kill their mages, or Andrastians threatening the clan to convert, then people are going to talk about the trials and tribulations that the Dalish have to deal with.

With the Elven Civil War, both types would have worked. As I said, until I see a good reason  to the restriction I will see it as a negative of the game. 

 

I know. I was just pointing out that in what little spotlight the Elves get, the Dalish get the majority of it. 

 

And there is nothing wrong with that. But sometimes the discussion goes to the Dalish only being victims. That's why I point out that this isn't always the case. 

[The Hierophant]

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

link?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

I see no hostile intent with the Chantry sending bodyguards to protect missionaries who were being forced out of a country. 

[Lady Nuggins]

Because as far as i am concerned? By this point, the elves lost whatever pity or compassion i might have given them through their sheer indifferent apathy. So i respond to their fate similarly. 

 

Interesting.  It seems like the elves really can't win.  Either they're too aggressive for using violence at any point, they're too strict and stuck in the past for clinging to what little culture they retained and refusing to adopt human culture, or they're too indifferent and apathetic to their situation for not doing the first two more. 

[Roamingmachine]

I see no hostile intent with the Chantry sending bodyguards to protect missionaries who were being forced out of a country.

If you have to send in the military to protect missionaries, you shouldn't have sent the missionaries in the first place *coughmissionariesareaculturalplaguecough* And can you think of ONE instance where a foreign power sending in military to a country with a hostile stance WOULDNT be considered as hostile intent? In the case of the Chantry, its the classic strategy of sending in the sacrificial sheep, watch them get slaughtered and then making a military intervention.

[cjones91]

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

But those missionaries were forced out by the Dalish before that as well.

[LobselVith8]

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

Technically, it read that templars were sent after the elves kicked out the missionaries, not that they were bodyguards. The refusal to convert was apparently an issue. Even the hahren for the city elves in Highever mentions that the Chantry took issue with the elves following a different religion: "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

[TK514]

I'm curious why humanity owes the elves anything.  This isn't kindergarten where the teacher makes people share toys and separates children who can't play together on the jungle gym.  This isn't Western Philosophy 21st Century Earth, where every sentient being deserves life liberty etc etc, and all cultures should be respected no matter what.  It's Thedas.  Not only are the societies different, but the social, economic and environmental pressures are different.

 

The elves had their chance.  Twice.  Their societies failed against competing cultures.  Twice.  How many chances is humanity, as a species and as direct competitors for the same scarce resources, supposed to give them?  What vital and irreplaceable factor do the elves bring to the world that Thedas can not exist without it?  What reason do Thedas humans have for not allowing or encouraging the elven culture to die out?

[LobselVith8]

I see no hostile intent with the Chantry sending bodyguards to protect missionaries who were being forced out of a country.

I see hostile intent in sending in the militant arm of the Chantry into foreign soil because the inhabitants refused to convert to the human religion. That's not even touching on the issue of templars being sent into a nation with free mages, given how they think they have "dominion over mages by divine right".

Frankly, I don't see how sending soldiers to invade a neighboring nation isn't viewed as an aggressive act.

[Kalamah]

I have not been moving anything. And have always argued that elves should be treated more fairly instead of being marginalized. 

But when doing so, you have asserted that the Dalish haven't properly earned being treated fairly. Maybe you just don't see it that way, but you've all but outright said that until the Dalish meet certain requirements, they aren't really victimized enough to not be marginalized. When people have said the Dalish aren't able to resist effectively and keep resisting, you've countered that it makes their claims less genuine. When we've said that overcoming centuries of marginalization with bootstraps is ridiculous, you've brought up a "well, they started it" argument. When we've pointed out that the actions of a few don't represent the whole group's philosophy, you've countered with... well, you hold the humans to the same standards, or something.

 

Nonviolence is ineffective for marginalized people, it's an ideal of colonizers because it nullifies the threat of a rebellion from mistreatment and makes any resistance much more ignorable due to its lack of actual change. Pretending that one raid on one village negates "innocent" victimhood, among a short list of other "offenses" is essentially saying there's no difference between resisting colonization and colonizing, which is outright ignoring the elephant in the room: which side outnumbers which again? Which side has the backing of Manifest Destiny and religious persecution of "heathens"? Does the fact the Dalish resisted initially really excuse or equalize things as they are now? I mean, if you're thinking that the Dalish shooting first is an absolute fact, it's kind of vital to acknowledge the context from their perspective, and not pretend that might makes right in the end. The balance of power shifted when the Dales were conquered, and it's stayed unequal since then with repeated justifications and excuses about how the Dalish essentially brought it upon themselves.

 

In other words, you're maintaining a very narrow definition of self-defense that the Dalish must conform to, and ignoring that the power imbalance is still in effect against the Dalish even when they're "aggressors" which is maintaining that they have no right to react (violently) to continued oppression by humans as a whole. One human village might not be at fault for the way the elves are treated, but by being human (especially on formerly Dalish lands) they benefit from the continued marginalization of the elves. It's apples and oranges. If the human village can be innocent victims, what about the Dalish clans that were and continue to be wiped out with whatever convenient excuses humans make up to justify it? Are they bad because one member has a (legitimate) grudge? Ten members? What number does it take for their victimhood to be revoked, for them to have deserved being attacked?

 

When you're not dodging the points made, you're maintaining that the Dalish aren't doing things properly according to your standards. Throughout this thread, to every fact presented you've countered using circular and flawed logic to assert that the Dalish are essentially doing it wrong when it comes to their methods of preserving their culture and ensuring their basic survival. Perhaps you could explain how you'd go about things in their shoes? Because if you can make a list of the mistakes the Dalish made in how they've reacted to the humans, it might be easier to see why you're so stuck on certain things.

[Ianamus]

The Dalish illegally squat on other peoples land, antagonize people in the area and break multiple laws of the country they are in. 

 

Of course they don't deserve to be treated the same as everyone else.