545 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

I'm curious why humanity owes the elves anything.  This isn't kindergarten where the teacher makes people share toys and separates children who can't play together on the jungle gym.  This isn't Western Philosophy 21st Century Earth, where every sentient being deserves life liberty etc etc, and all cultures should be respected no matter what.  It's Thedas.  Not only are the societies different, but the social, economic and environmental pressures are different.
 
The elves had their chance.  Twice.  Their societies failed against competing cultures.  Twice.  How many chances is humanity, as a species and as direct competitors for the same scarce resources, supposed to give them?  What vital and irreplaceable factor do the elves bring to the world that Thedas can not exist without it?  What reason do Thedas humans have for not allowing or encouraging the elven culture to die out?

@bolded - Hey Thedas still needs a token victim people! The humans are too defiant, the dwarves are too burly, while the qunari are too resilient.

The elves fit the role perfectly. Even their genes are submissive.

[Xilizhra]

I'm curious why humanity owes the elves anything.  This isn't kindergarten where the teacher makes people share toys and separates children who can't play together on the jungle gym.  This isn't Western Philosophy 21st Century Earth, where every sentient being deserves life liberty etc etc, and all cultures should be respected no matter what.  It's Thedas.  Not only are the societies different, but the social, economic and environmental pressures are different.

 

The elves had their chance.  Twice.  Their societies failed against competing cultures.  Twice.  How many chances is humanity, as a species and as direct competitors for the same scarce resources, supposed to give them?  What vital and irreplaceable factor do the elves bring to the world that Thedas can not exist without it?  What reason do Thedas humans have for not allowing or encouraging the elven culture to die out?

Well, no one has any obligations to anyone else, going by that route. And since I have no interest whatsoever in working from an Andrastian perspective, if I must make arguments from in-universe points of view alone, I'll use the Dalish one.

[LobselVith8]

I'm curious why humanity owes the elves anything. This isn't kindergarten where the teacher makes people share toys and separates children who can't play together on the jungle gym. This isn't Western Philosophy 21st Century Earth, where every sentient being deserves life liberty etc etc, and all cultures should be respected no matter what. It's Thedas. Not only are the societies different, but the social, economic and environmental pressures are different.

As Duncan said, most Andrastian humans simply view the elves as less than people, so I doubt they feel humanity owes the elves anything.

The elves had their chance. Twice. Their societies failed against competing cultures. Twice. How many chances is humanity, as a species and as direct competitors for the same scarce resources, supposed to give them? What vital and irreplaceable factor do the elves bring to the world that Thedas can not exist without it? What reason do Thedas humans have for not allowing or encouraging the elven culture to die out?

I have no interest in asking Celene or Gaspard for the Dales out of some ethical obligation or out of some absurd notion that the elves should fulfill some requirement to have self-determination over their lives, since both contenders are morally bankrupt; I do have an interest in helping the elves reclaim the nation with an elven Inquisitor, because I think the elves deserve a homeland where they can live without subjugation and oppression.

[Ryzaki]

@bolded - Hey Thedas still needs a token victim people! The humans are too defiant, the dwarves are too burly, while the qunari are too resilient.

The elves fit the role perfectly. Even their genes are submissive.

 

Okay this made me lol.

[Master Warder Z_]

@bolded - Hey Thedas still needs a token victim people! The humans are too defiant, the dwarves are too burly, while the qunari are too resilient.

The elves fit the role perfectly. Even their genes are submissive.

 

I'll be honest this made laugh.

[Ianamus]

I have no interest in asking Celene or Gaspard for the Dales out of some ethical obligation or out of some absurd notion that the elves should fulfill some requirement to have self-determination over their lives, since both contenders are morally bankrupt; I do have an interest in helping the elves reclaim the nation with an elven Inquisitor, because I think the elves deserve a homeland where they can live without subjugation and oppression.

 

So all the humans born and living in the Dales can just GTFO?

[Xilizhra]

So all the humans born and living in the Dales can just GTFO?

Well, many here would argue that if the elves win it, they can keep it.

[Kalamah]

The Dalish: Oh, look at these nice humans with their different religion and culture! I'm sure they'd appreciate a neighborly welcome.

The Dalish: Wait, their religion dictates that we must convert? On pain of death? Um... how about no.

The Chantry: I came here to conquer these lands and I'm honestly feeling so attacked right now!

[Roamingmachine]

So all the humans born and living in the Dales can just GTFO?

Yup. People who kick puppies should not expect compassion when the dogs tear them apart.

[Master Warder Z_]

Interesting.  It seems like the elves really can't win.  Either they're too aggressive for using violence at any point, they're too strict and stuck in the past for clinging to what little culture they retained and refusing to adopt human culture, or they're too indifferent and apathetic to their situation for not doing the first two more. 

 

Well sitting out the possible end of the world, costs you brownie points i am afraid to say.

 

Then using that military weakness of the country that just fought off said possible end of the world, as a motivation for invasion, costs you even more.

 

Military Opportunism i can respect, But possibly? allowing all sentient life to perish just to encourage said result? That crosses a few lines for me.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish illegally squat on other peoples land, antagonize people in the area and break multiple laws of the country they are in.

Of course they don't deserve to be treated the same as everyone else.

The Dalish refusal to convert to the Andrastian faith makes them criminals by Chantry law and they usually leave an area to avoid violent confrontations with humans (as the developers and the lore notes). I have no inclination to defend the Chantry law that criminalizes the elven pantheon.

So all the humans born and living in the Dales can just GTFO?

Humans are already leaving the occupied Dales (due to the civil war) in significant numbers (per Asunder).

[TK514]

Well, many here would argue that if the elves win it, they can keep it.

 

I would agree.  What I wouldn't agree with is that humans have some obligation to let them have it, or to not try to take it back.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Dalish: Oh, look at these nice humans with their different religion and culture! I'm sure they'd appreciate a friendly, neighborly welcome.

The Dalish: Wait, their religion dictates that we must convert? On pain of death? Um... how about no.

The Chantry: I came here to conquer these lands and I'm honestly feeling so attacked right now!

 

Actually it should be something akin to this

 

The Dalish: You want our help?

 

Orlais: Its a blight!

 

The Dalish: ...And Shemlen?
 

Orlais: We could all possibly very well die in the struggle? We need to band together to fight darkspawn!

 

The Dalish: No.

 

Orlais: No? NO! Well fine...But at least don't use the aftermath of this crisis as an excuse to invade, and expand your nation please?

 

The Dalish: No.

 

._. That's how it went down.

[Ianamus]

Yup. People who kick puppies should not expect compassion when the dogs tear them apart.

 

Because every single man woman and child who lives in the Dales has personally abused elves at some point in their lives. Obviously.

 

Well, many here would argue that if the elves win it, they can keep it.

 

 

How is kicking the commoner humans living in the Dales out of their homes and better than what the humans did to the elves in the first place?

 

It's all well and good to talk about elves returning to their "homeland" until you remember the vast majority have never seen it or even been in the same country as it, and many common people actually live there. 

[Kalamah]

I would agree.  What I wouldn't agree with is that humans have some obligation to let them have it, or to not try to take it back.

Ah yes, because no takesies backsies, the humans won it fair and square and the Dalish are sore losers. Gosh, that's just so convenient.

[Xilizhra]

I would agree.  What I wouldn't agree with is that humans have some obligation to let them have it, or to not try to take it back.

So the Dalish similarly have no obligation to not try to take the Dales back, yes?

 

 

How is kicking the commoner humans living in the Dales out of their homes and better than what the humans did to the elves in the first place?

 

It's all well and good to talk about elves returning to their "homeland" until you remember the vast majority have never seen it or even been in the same country as it, and many common people actually live there. 

The vast majority of the population of the Dales is still elven, just so you know.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ah yes, because no takesies backsies, the humans won it fair and square and the Dalish are sore losers. Gosh, that's just so convenient.

 

VERY sore losers to be honest.

[Ianamus]

 

The Dalish refusal to convert to the Andrastian faith makes them criminals by Chantry law and they usually leave an area to avoid violent confrontations with humans (as the developers and the lore notes). I have no inclination to defend the Chantry law that criminalizes the elven pantheon.
 

 

I wasn't talking about breaking religious laws. 

 

In The Masked Empire the Dalish summon one of the most powerful demons in existence and bind it to a bunch of flimsy stones. Why on Earth should the humans living in Orlais tolerate something like that?! If he broke free he could potentially threaten the entire country (And, unsurprisingly, that's exactly what happened).

 

Much as people complain about the Circle I doubt many would argue that summoning immensely powerful demons is totally fine. 

[MisterJB]

The Dalish refusal to convert to the Andrastian faith makes them criminals by Chantry law and they usually leave an area to avoid violent confrontations with humans (as the developers and the lore notes). I have no inclination to defend the Chantry law that criminalizes the elven pantheon.

None of that affects the fact the Dalish are constantly ilegally squatting in other people's lands, making a nuisance of themselves.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Templar incursions accompanying their missionaries had happened quite a few times beforehand.

 

*Citation needed.

 

Since, you know, no Dalish codex claims that Templars preceeded Red Crossing.
 

[Kalamah]

None of that affects the fact the Dalish are constantly ilegally squatting in other people's lands, making a nuisance of themselves.

So... where do they have to go instead? Oh right, they have no lands of their own, because they were stolen. Are they still "squatters" in the Dales because it's no longer their land?

[LobselVith8]

Because every single man woman and child who lives in the Dales has personally abused elves at some point in their lives. Obviously.

It's an unjust system. Every chevalier has apparently killed an innocent elf as part of their initiation rite, and thousands were brutally killed in the latest purge of Halamshiral.

 
How is kicking the commoner humans living in the Dales out of their homes and better than what the humans did to the elves in the first place?
 
It's all well and good to talk about elves returning to their "homeland" until you remember the vast majority have never seen it or even been in the same country as it, and many common people actually live there.

Some of us remember that most humans are leaving the Dales because of the civil war. In fact, the majority of the people living in the Dales (pre-civil war) were elven.

[TK514]

 

How is kicking the commoner humans living in the Dales out of their homes and better than what the humans did to the elves in the first place?

 

It's all well and good to talk about elves returning to their "homeland" until you remember the vast majority have never seen it or even been in the same country as it, and many common people actually live there. 

 

Don't mention how it's been Orlesian and humans have lived there longer than the Dales actually existed.  That's a big frowny face all over the 'but elven homeland!' justification.  As it pointing out that 'elven homeland!' justifications should really be directed at Tevinter.

 

Funny how everyone is down on Orlais and the Dales, and yet no one ever goes right to the source and says 'The Elves should reconquer the forest where Arlathan was rumored to have stood!  And, while we're at it, we can help free the elves that are ACTUAL slaves from the grip of the Magisters!' 

 

Too much like work, I guess, freeing people who are actually in chains.

[Master Warder Z_]

None of that affects the fact the Dalish are constantly ilegally squatting in other people's lands, making a nuisance of themselves.

 

Honestly, Its like they want the various human nations to just despise them or something.

[Tevinter Rose]

"When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. "

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dalish

 

The wiki doesn't seem to be clear on who started what exactly. I think both sides are to blame to a certain degree but I do think the Chantry escalated the situation by sending missionaries into their territory. I don't know why the Chantry even thought the missionaries would be welcome in the first place. I'm more inclined to believe they weren't missionaries but really spies looking to find out exactly what the elves were doing since they were becoming increasingly more isolationist at that time.