545 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

Because every single man woman and child who lives in the Dales has personally abused elves at some point in their lives. Obviously.
 
 
 
How is kicking the commoner humans living in the Dales out of their homes and better than what the humans did to the elves in the first place?
 
It's all well and good to talk about elves returning to their "homeland" until you remember the vast majority have never seen it or even been in the same country as it, and many common people actually live there.

When a hatred becomes as systematic as it is with humans against elves, you can't treat the opposition as individuals anymore. Sad, but there it is. You will need decades, maybe centuries of human nations NOT invading the elven nation for any sort of trust to be built and maybe humans be allowed in. Untill then, they are a national security risk.

[Dean_the_Young]

So the Dalish similarly have no obligation to not try to take the Dales back, yes?

 

Do we not count reasons of practicality, feasiblity, and general value of non-aggression as obligations?

 

The Dalish are under about as much obligation to not try and take back the Dales as they are under obligation to not murder humans who wander to near the camps, or obligation to not burn human settlements/not start wars they can't win/doom their own culture with xenophobia and historical illiteracy.

 

Obligation is not synonymous with reason, after all.

[TK514]

So the Dalish similarly have no obligation to not try to take the Dales back, yes?

 

 

The vast majority of the population of the Dales is still elven, just so you know.

 

No obligation not to try.  One would suspect reason would suffice as a deterrent, but apparently not.

 

and the majority of the Dales population is Orlesian Elf, not Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

I wasn't talking about breaking religious laws.

In The Masked Empire the Dalish summon one of the most powerful demons in existence and bind it to a bunch of flimsy stones.

Traditionally, the Dalish prohibit using magic that involves spirits, as they view all spirits as dangerous. You're condemning the Dalish because of an atypical Keeper who transgressed this tenant.

Why on Earth should the humans living in Orlais tolerate something like that?! If he broke free he could potentially threaten the entire country (And, unsurprisingly, that's exactly what happened).

Because a chevalier released it, yes.

Much as people complain about the Circle I doubt many would argue that summoning immensely powerful demons is totally fine.

Spirit, you mean. The Dalish don't share the Andrastian view of Spirits and Demons.

[Master Warder Z_]

When a hatred becomes as systematic as it is with humans against elves, you can't treat the opposition as individuals anymore. Sad, but there it is. You will need decades, maybe centuries of human nations NOT invading the elven nation for any sort of trust to be built and maybe humans be allowed in. Untill then, they are a national security risk.

 

 

Honestly? I think the only elven nation that could ever feasibly come about, likewise any elven Nation that i would WANT to come about would be in essence a carbon copy of the "Valley of Flowers" from the Witcher series.

 

An Elven Dominated Puppet State of a Human Kingdom, The Elves have nobility, Lands, Titles, And rights within, but ultimately all the decision making comes from Humanity. Which is fair given they protect and fund the bloody thing.

[MisterJB]

"When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. "

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dalish

 

The wiki doesn't seem to be clear on who started what exactly. I think both sides are to blame to a certain degree but I do think the Chantry escalated the situation by sending missionaries into their territory. I don't know why the Chantry even thought the missionaries would be welcome in the first place. I'm more inclined to believe they weren't missionaries but really spies looking to find out exactly what the elves were doing since they were becoming increasingly more isolationist at that time. 

Anyone can edit the wiki.

All the elves have to say about that period is "First missionaries, then Templars" but, as far as we know, they are referring to the Exalted March and completely omitting the war that happened inbetween.

[Ianamus]

Because a chevalier released it, yes.

 

It had enough power to affect the minds of all people within the camp even while it was chained. 

 

And the clan in Dargon Age 2 had the keeper willing merge with a powerful demon. 

 

I'm not going to lie, now that I know there are Dalish clans summoning ancient demons and playing around with them I think the Chantry would be fully justified in subjugating the Dalish clans entirely. Far too dangerous to let them wander around stupidly endangering everyone like that. 

[LobselVith8]

"When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. "
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dalish
 
The wiki doesn't seem to be clear on who started what exactly. I think both sides are to blame to a certain degree but I do think the Chantry escalated the situation by sending missionaries into their territory. I don't know why the Chantry even thought the missionaries would be welcome in the first place. I'm more inclined to believe they weren't missionaries but really spies looking to find out exactly what the elves were doing since they were becoming increasingly more isolationist at that time.

It's not an issue of who is right, because we aren't privy to the truth; it's that there are two historical accounts, and even the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't hurt. Some people here would simply prefer to pretend as though there's only the Chantry version, and that's intellectually dishonest.

[Master Warder Z_]

It had enough power to affect the minds of all people within the camp even while it was chained. 

 

And the clan in Dargon Age 2 had the keeper willing merge with a powerful demon. 

 

I'm not going to lie, now that I know there are Dalish clans summoning ancient demons and playing around with them I think the Chantry would be fully justified in subjugating the Dalish clans entirely. Far too dangerous to let them wander around stupidly endangering everyone like that. 

 

Hence my Argument that the Tower while not a perfect solution is a far sight better to unsupervised usages of magic that can possibly threaten and endanger communities, cities or even entire countries.

 

The Dalish are unsupervised magic users, and honestly combine that with all their other faults, traits and history and i would not object to a Chantry Campaign against them, Threatening an entire Nation because of personal interest isn't acceptable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anyone can edit the wiki.

All the elves have to say about that period is "First missionaries, then Templars" but, as far as we know, they are referring to the Exalted March and completely omitting the war that happened inbetween.

Not even the war in between- most Dalish accounts don't even mention Red Crossing or the campaign in Orlais at all. The argument that the Chantry and Templars invaded first is a creation of the fandom. The Dalish do not argue about who invaded first- it reaches historic amnesia levels in the basence of context. It's like trying to get an American to answer why Washington D.C. was razed by the British- except most don't even know that it ever was.

 

The only invasion the Dalish commonly discuss is the last one, which led to the fall of the Dales. How the conflict started in earnest is glossed over in the extreme.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's not an issue of who is right, because we aren't privy to the truth; it's that there are two historical accounts, and even the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't hurt. Some people here would simply prefer to pretend as though there's only the Chantry version, and that's intellectually dishonest.

 

You're citing a potential player character response as support while ignorring that the elven account doesn't dispute the facts claimed by the Chantry. You are the very last person to have any grounds of accusing anyone else of intellectual dishonesty.

[LobselVith8]

It had enough power to affect the minds of all people within the camp even while it was chained. 

Not to the point of getting released until the chevalier willingly set it free.

 
And the clan in Dargon Age 2 had the keeper willing merge with a powerful demon. 

A spirit that was summoned and bound during the war between Tevinter and Arlathan, and no one in the clan was certain which side summoned it originally.

 
I'm not going to lie, now that I know there are Dalish clans summoning ancient demons and playing around with them I think the Chantry would be fully justified in subjugating the Dalish clans entirely. Far too dangerous to let them wander around stupidly endangering everyone like that.

Following that line of thought, there was Vaughan, there was Karras, and there was Alrik; does that mean you'll be condemning the entirety of humanity because we've had three human rapists?

[pallascedar]

Hence my Argument that the Tower while not a perfect solution is a far sight better to unsupervised usages of magic that can possibly threaten and endanger communities, cities or even entire countries.

 

The Dalish are unsupervised magic users, and honestly combine that with all their other faults, traits and history and i would not object to a Chantry Campaign against them, Threatening an entire Nation because of personal interest isn't acceptable.

 

Yeah, but an all out war against the Dalish would probably cause more anguish than it would solve. The Dalish aren't just going to sit back and be taken over: of course the Chantry would win, but a lot of people would die.

 

It'd also be hard to justify the effort going after a small number of mages who are mostly spread out over wandering clans when human maleficarum regularly prove themselves to be a much greater danger to society, and the chantry already has a significant amount of trouble dealing with them.

[Tevinter Rose]

It's not an issue of who is right, because we aren't privy to the truth; it's that there are two historical accounts, and even the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't hurt. Some people here would simply prefer to pretend as though there's only the Chantry version, and that's intellectually dishonest.

 

Yeah I don't think one side is right or wrong. It could go either way and I think it was left intentionally vague for a reason.

[Kalamah]

It's not an issue of who is right, because we aren't privy to the truth; it's that there are two historical accounts, and even the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't hurt. Some people here would simply prefer to pretend as though there's only the Chantry version, and that's intellectually dishonest.

The bold. That, and they then use it to justify the state of things now, up to and including that the occupation of Dalish lands negates the Dalish right to them. Alternately, they demand instead that unless the Dalish can take back their lands, but not violently because that's somehow unfair to the poor innocent humans squatting there, the Dalish clearly don't deserve their own lands. It's all circular.

[LobselVith8]

You're citing a potential player character response as support while ignorring that the elven account doesn't dispute the facts claimed by the Chantry. You are the very last person to have any grounds of accusing anyone else of intellectual dishonesty.

It provides a different inception for the war, which is human incursion due to a refusal to convert, which is echoed verbally by the elven Warden. And since I haven't forgotten your asinine comparison of the Dalish to the Taliban, you're the last person who should be throwing accusations around.

[MisterJB]

The bold. That, and they then use it to justify the state of things now, up to and including that the occupation of Dalish lands negates the Dalish right to them. Alternately, they demand instead that unless the Dalish can take back their lands, but not violently because that's somehow unfair to the poor innocent humans squatting there, the Dalish clearly don't deserve their own lands. It's all circular.

It's been 700 years and the Dales existed only for 200. It's not their lands anymore.

 

And there is no Dalish account to speak of. All the Dalish say is "First Missionares, then Templars". However, they don't acknowledge Red Crossing or the Orlais-Dales war.

We know Templars came because an Exalted March was called. The Dalish do never ever suggest that the Templars who came to the Dales happened before this March, they just say "Templars came". Ok, when? At which point in time?

 

As it is, we only have the human version.

[Ianamus]

Following that line of thought, there was Vaughan, there was Karras, and there was Alrik; does that mean you'll be condemning the entirety of humanity because we've had three human rapists?

 

The rapists only threatened a few people in the city, whereas Imshael now threatens an entire country and thousands of lives. 

 

Also, I'm not condemning all elves. I'm condemning the Dalish clans. So it would be more like condemning the Templar order for not controlling their members (which I do). 

 

The best equivalent I can think of would be groups of gypsies wandering around europe being a nuisance and illegal squatting on land, completely out of reach of the law, and some of whom have been found to be creating atomic weapons. Like hell should they be allowed to keep doing that. 

[pallascedar]

It's been 700 years and the Dales existed only for 200. It's not their lands anymore.

 

And there is no Dalish account to speak of. All the Dalish say is "First Missionares, then Templars". However, they don't acknowledge Red Crossing or the Orlais-Dales war.

We know Templars came because an Exalted March was called. The Dalish do never ever suggest that the Templars who came to the Dales happened before this March, they just say "Templars came". Ok, when? At which point in time?

 

As it is, we only have the human version.

 

I think the point Lob is trying to make is that just because the human version is all we have it doesn't mean that it's entirely accurate. We don't know about what provoked the attack at red crossing, if anything. I agree that the information we have certainly suggests that the Dalish are not blameless, but that doesn't mean that they are undoubtedly the villains in this story.

[Dean_the_Young]

The bold. That, and they then use it to justify the state of things now, up to and including that the occupation of Dalish lands negates the Dalish right to them. Alternately, they demand instead that unless the Dalish can take back their lands, but not violently because that's somehow unfair to the poor innocent humans squatting there, the Dalish clearly don't deserve their own lands. It's all circular.

The Dalish 'right' to lands amounts to a seven hundred year claim that itself was given by other people nearly two hundred years before that. And belonged to Tevinter for even longer before that, if they can be claimed to belong to anyone at all. And only maybe, if you take the completely unverifiable claims of Arlathan's universally dominion seriously, to any other elven civilization before that.

 

Unless you're a really hardcore irredentist who believes you have the right to land a different civilization you identify with claimed nearly a millenia ago, most people would be highly suspect of displacing the current population. And if you are, the same rational and logic can be used to justify the claims of those you're dispossessing.

 

Disapproving of irridentist arguments isn't circular. That's only the cornerstone concern behind one of the bloodiest secretarian conflicts of the Middle East. Only in this case the elves can't even claim to be a relatively progressive faction that has already created a fait accompli and established themselves as the dominant military power in the region.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's been 700 years and the Dales existed only for 200. It's not their lands anymore.

 

And there is no Dalish account to speak of. All the Dalish say is "First Missionares, then Templars". However, they don't acknowledge Red Crossing or the Orlais-Dales war.

We know Templars came because an Exalted March was called. The Dalish do never ever suggest that the Templars who came to the Dales happened before this March, they just say "Templars came". Ok, when? At which point in time?

 

As it is, we only have the human version.

 

It's nice to see somethings haven't changed while i took my break from the forums

[Dean_the_Young]

It provides a different inception for the war, which is human incursion due to a refusal to convert, which is echoed verbally by the elven Warden.

A different inception of the war is not a supporting fact or evidenced. This is intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

 

And since I haven't forgotten your asinine comparison of the Dalish to the Taliban, you're the last person who should be throwing accusations around.

 

I also remember that you wouldn't even identify what you disagreed with the comparison as it was presented and simply dismissed it as entirely invalid without identifying how. Which is also intellectual dishonesty.

[pallascedar]

The best equivalent I can think of would be groups of gypsies wandering around europe being a nuisance and illegal squatting on land, completely out of reach of the law, and some of whom have been found to be creating atomic weapons. Like hell should they be allowed to keep doing that. 

 

First off: you might be overstating Ishmael's danger. Xebeneck and Gaxkang are also forgotten ones, unleashed on the world by crazy humans and who knows what.

 

Secondly: just because several people use a dangerous weapon, it doesn't make a good excuse to commit cultural genocide.

[Tevinter Rose]

Anyone can edit the wiki.

All the elves have to say about that period is "First missionaries, then Templars" but, as far as we know, they are referring to the Exalted March and completely omitting the war that happened inbetween.

 

That particular part of the wiki is just reiterating the same thing in the Dales codex entry. I don't think it's been edited to sound one way or another. I was just providing another pov.

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

[Ianamus]

First off: you might be overstating Ishmael's danger. Xebeneck and Gaxkang are also forgotten ones, unleashed on the world by crazy humans and who knows what.

 

Secondly: just because several people use a dangerous weapon, it doesn't make a good excuse to commit cultural genocide.

 

He managed to kill practically the entire clan single-handedly, without any visible effort. If "normal" abominations can kill up to 80 people before the Templars can stop them in-lore (Merediths sister) what could he do?

 

The obvious answer is to simply force the Dalish to hand all of their mages over to the circle/ whatever new institution is created to monitor mages in Inquisition. But like they are ever going to agree to that.