I also remember that you wouldn't even identify what you disagreed with the comparison as it was presented and simply dismissed it as entirely invalid without identifying how. Which is also intellectual dishonesty.
To my knowledge, the Dalish don't want to control human society, nor has it ever been stated in-game by anyone that they want the Dales back in particular. They're just trying to stay out of trouble and gather knowledge.
The rapists only threatened a few people in the city, whereas Imshael now threatens an entire country and thousands of lives.
Also, I'm not condemning all elves. I'm condemning the Dalish clans. So it would be more like condemning the Templar order for not controlling their members (which I do).
The best equivalent I can think of would be groups of gypsies wandering around europe being a nuisance and illegal squatting on land, completely out of reach of the law, and some of whom have been found to be creating atomic weapons. Like hell should they be allowed to keep doing that.
First off: you might be overstating Ishmael's danger. Xebeneck and Gaxkang are also forgotten ones, unleashed on the world by crazy humans and who knows what.
Secondly: just because several people use a dangerous weapon, it doesn't make a good excuse to commit cultural genocide.
If several people of a culture maintain it is their right to transport and unleash WMDs in your cultural territory as their own cultural perogative, that is exactly the sort of justification that warrants a government to remove a group as a public danger.
Cultural genocide, buzzwords aside, is precisely what governments do against cultures that present clear and public dangers from within the culture's boundaries. Your government cracks down on and works to eliminate incompatible subcultures all the time, and quite often you thank them for it. These subcultures are simply called 'gangs' or 'cults', the dangerous kind, and routinely dismissed as cultures to avoid the buzzwords involved.
First off: you might be overstating Ishmael's danger. Xebeneck and Gaxkang are also forgotten ones, unleashed on the world by crazy humans and who knows what.
Secondly: just because several people use a dangerous weapon, it doesn't make a good excuse to commit cultural genocide.
Overstating the danger of a demon whom was able to compel an entire community even though he was warded? Are you serious? We don't know much about those forgotten ones, or their capabilities beyond those witnessed in game play. And obviously that is far too little, if half the lore written on them is true.
Uh, Actually the bolded is entirely speculative and depends who you talk to.
That particular part of the wiki is just reiterating the same thing in the Dales codex entry. I don't think it's been edited to sound one way or another. I was just providing another pov.
It has. The codex they cite as reason to believe the Chantry instigated the dark rumors doesn't actually claim the Chantry supported the rumors.
It's fanon interpretation of a historical account by the Chantry. The logic is that if the Chantry says rumors existed and doesn't explicitly refute them, the Chantry sanctioned those rumors.
That particular part of the wiki is just reiterating the same thing in the Dales codex entry. I don't think it's been edited to sound one way or another. I was just providing another pov.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
To my knowledge, the Dalish don't want to control human society, nor has it ever been stated in-game by anyone that they want the Dales back in particular. They're just trying to stay out of trouble and gather knowledge.
Xil, if you don't know what the original context or grounds of the comparison was, I suggest you either seek clarification or avoid interjecting from a position of ignorance.
Because an elven mage violated the ethos of the Dalish and summoned a spirit? If the Dalish traditionally avoid using magic that involves spirits, I don't see how you can condemn them all for it.
Because the clan in Origins had a keeper who summoned a powerful spirit and cursed an entire town of people into werewolves who went on to kill members of his clan, the clan in DA:2 had a first who consorted with spirits and a keeper who willingly became an abomination, and the clan in the Masked empire summoned one of the most powerful, dangerous and malicious spirits in existence into Orlais.
That's three clans we've seen prominently and all three have major issue with summoning spirits, members being possessed, creating abominations that have to be put down and causing a large amount of deaths because of it.
So much for their "ethos"!
Because the clan in Origins had a keeper who summoned a powerful spirit and cursed an entire town of people into werewolves who went on to kill members of his clan, the clan in DA:2 had a first who consorted with spirits and a keeper who willingly became an abomination, and the clan in the Masked empire summoned one of the most powerful, dangerous and malicious spirits in existence into Orlais.
That's three clans we've seen prominently and all three have major issue with summoning spirits, members being possessed, creating abominations that have to be put down and causing a large amount of deaths because of it.
So much for their "ethos"! It's obvious the Dalish have absolutely no control over their mages.
Actually, the Sabrae Clan did not have a First who did so; she stepped down from that position.
And there's exactly as much grounds for claiming that the Chantry has no control over their mages; the Fereldan and Kirkwall Circles both blow up with demonic activity, and the Starkhaven Circle was largely burned down by escaping mages who then summoned other demons elsewhere, and those are the only Circles the games reveal to us.
Because the clan in Origins had a keeper who summoned a powerful spirit and cursed an entire town of people into werewolves who went on to kill members of his clan, the clan in DA:2 had a first who consorted with spirits and a keeper who willingly became an abomination, and the clan in the Masked empire summoned one of the most powerful, dangerous and malicious spirits in existence into Orlais.
That's three clans we've seen prominently and all three have major issue with summoning spirits, members being possessed, creating abominations that have to be put down and causing a large amount of deaths because of it.
So much for their "ethos"!
You forgot the clan in DAA who left a leadership candidate free to summon spirits (not the friendly kind) into trees to attack innocent humans and sabotage desperatly needed trade routes.
Velanna's clan didn't support her actions, but they certainly didn't prevent her from being a menace to Fereldens in Ferelden either.
Because the clan in Origins had a keeper who summoned a powerful spirit and cursed an entire town of people into werewolves who went on to kill members of his clan, the clan in DA:2 had a first who consorted with spirits and a keeper who willingly became an abomination, and the clan in the Masked empire summoned one of the most powerful, dangerous and malicious spirits in existence into Orlais.
That's three clans we've seen prominently and all three have major issue with summoning spirits, members being possessed, creating abominations that have to be put down and causing a large amount of deaths because of it.
So much for their "ethos"!
You're wasting your breath. They would rather pretend that the Chantry version is all that exists, despite the Dalish codex reading that humans invaded the Dales because the elves of the kingdom wouldn't convert, and the elven Warden verbally condemning the Chantry over this.
Your right. It seems they can't acknowledge any other points of views unless it fits or complements theirs even when its written plainly in the codex.
Not to mention the very purpose of the clans moving about is to spread out so there aren't too many elves in one place to draw attention, and risk attack.
The distribution across Thedas makes it easier, not harder, for them to approach and receive city elves.
We already know that individual Dalish can enter the alienages, just as we know that the city elves are allowed beyond the alienage. The Clan doesn't need to park outside the city to have far more recruitment efforts than we have seen to date.
So a man who cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, a Keeper who acted irresponsibly, and another Keeper who violated the magical ethics of the Dalish. Three people, out of an innumerable number of men and women across history.
That's where you and I differ. I'm not going to condemn an entire society over three people.
As somebody mentioned above, Velanna also summons spirits into trees to attack people in Awkaening.
These are the only clans we've seen and every single one has members who break this "ethos" you speak about in one way or another. And all lead to the deaths of innocent people, often both elven and human, and in some cases the destruction of the entire clan as well.
This coupled with their illegal squatting, killing humans who come across the camp by accident, racism against humans and city elves...
Honestly, Thedas would be a better (and safer) place if they did not exist. How can a group so small cause so much bloody trouble?!
You forgot the clan in DAA who left a leadership candidate free to summon spirits (not the friendly kind) into trees to attack innocent humans and sabotage desperatly needed trade routes.
Velanna's clan didn't support her actions, but they certainly didn't prevent her from being a menace to Fereldens in Ferelden either.
As somebody mentioned above, Velanna also summons spirits into trees to attack people in Awkaening.
These are the only clans we've seen and every single one has members who break this "ethos" you speak about in one way or another. And all lead to the deaths of innocent people, both Elven and human, and in some cases the destruction of the entire clan as well.
This coupled with their illegal squatting, killing humans who come across the camp by accident, racism against humans and city elves...
Honestly, Thedas would be a better (and safer) place if they did not exist. How can a group so small cause so much bloody trouble?!
Many people ask those questions about real life groups friend...
As somebody mentioned above, Velanna also summons spirits into trees to attack people in Awkaening.
These are the only clans we've seen and every single one has members who break this "ethos" you speak about in one way or another. And all lead to the deaths of innocent people, both Elven and human, and in some cases the destruction of the entire clan as well.
This coupled with their illegal squatting, killing humans who come across the camp by accident, racism against humans and city elves...
Honestly, Thedas would be a better (and safer) place if they did not exist! How can a group so small cause so much bloody trouble?!
Because it's barely any trouble at all? Velanna was just a bandit, Zathrian's issues were confined to his own clan and a forest where no one goes, Marethari's shenanigans also didn't go beyond her own clan, and Imshael is an anomaly and one of only four beings of its kind, two of which were A. living in human cities, and B. are now dead.
Many people ask those questions about real life groups friend...
I don't think the answer is to kill them, just to either remove their mages (since they clearly have no control over them or their actions), or drag them all into the alienages with the city elves they hate so much. Then maybe they can actually start improving the lives of elves rather than just making everyone more miserable.
Because it's barely any trouble at all? Velanna was just a bandit, Zathrian's issues were confined to his own clan and a forest where no one goes, Marethari's shenanigans also didn't go beyond her own clan, and Imshael is an anomaly and one of only four beings of its kind, two of which were A. living in human cities, and B. are now dead.
Returned to the Fade you mean, Demon's cannot "die" they can be dispersed into Wisps, but somehow i doubt one defeat would turn a Forgotten one into a wisp.
Because it's barely any trouble at all? Velanna was just a bandit, Zathrian's issues were confined to his own clan and a forest where no one goes, Marethari's shenanigans also didn't go beyond her own clan, and Imshael is an anomaly and one of only four beings of its kind, two of which were A. living in human cities, and B. are now dead.
If unknown numbers of dead and generations of suffering are now considered barely any trouble at all, I'm surprised you feel as strongly for the elves as you do.
Unless you care more about people who live with racism than people who are killed with the same. Which would leave for some very troubling conclusions about what, exactly, you find acceptable and what you don't... except you've already explicitly advocated and defended the total genocide of humans in favor of elvish culture in the past.
So troubling, but not particularly surprising.
Returned to the Fade you mean, Demon's cannot "die" they can be dispersed into Wisps, but somehow i doubt one defeat would turn a Forgotten one into a wisp.
I was going to say that Marethari contradicted that in DA2... then I recalled that Marethari was possessed by Audacity and was likely lying her ass off about "kill me and it dies too," so I suppose you're right. "Fallen to wisphood," then, though I doubt anything suggests that Forbidden Ones (the Forgotten Ones are the evil Dalish gods) are particularly resistant to wisphood.
I don't think the answer is to kill them, just to either remove their mages (since they clearly have no control over them or their actions), or drag them all into the alienages with the city elves they hate so much. Then maybe they can actually start improving the lives of elves rather than just making everyone more miserable.
What's funny about all the anti-Dalish Brigade folks in this thread is that if the situation were entirely reversed, with humans being marginalized and elves dominant, these same people would be champions of the humans. Granted, if we were to play Devil's Advocate with them, they'd be unlikely to understand the full nuance of things... but the colonizer side is inherently wrong, and I'm not the sort of jerk to bait people into heated reactions. 
I don't think the answer is to kill them, just to either remove their mages (since they clearly have no control over them or their actions), or drag them all into the alienages with the city elves they hate so much. Then maybe they can actually start improving the lives of elves rather than just making everyone more miserable.
I would argue that it would be best to simply remove the mages and force the Dalish into resettlement into an outer province of Nevarra or Orlais.
You cannot contain an issue that is free to remove it self at any given time and take root once more, therefore its stationary position must be given permanency. A Reservation so to speak, Where the Dalish can live among themselves, rule themselves and be free to do as they wish, just under the watchful eyes of Humanity, Perhaps its naive to believe that gifting them a state would solve issues between them and Humanity, but i would prefer no massacre, there have been enough of those between Humanity and elves on both sides.
If unknown numbers of dead and generations of suffering are now considered barely any trouble at all, I'm surprised you feel as strongly for the elves as you do.
Unless you care more about people who live with racism than people who are killed with the same. Which would leave for some very troubling conclusions about what, exactly, you find acceptable and what you don't... except you've already explicitly advocated and defended the total genocide of humans in favor of elvish culture in the past.
So troubling, but not particularly surprising.
"Barely any trouble" by Thedosian standards. And given that the clan at the beginning of Origins fled after one potentially hostile encounter with humans, it doesn't seem entirely likely that most clans would be willing to take the risk of being human-reaping marauders; the only other examples we've seen thus far, issues with magic, are vastly outweighed by disasters within the Circle.
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