545 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

Because it's barely any trouble at all? Velanna was just a bandit, Zathrian's issues were confined to his own clan and a forest where no one goes, Marethari's shenanigans also didn't go beyond her own clan, and Imshael is an anomaly and one of only four beings of its kind, two of which were A. living in human cities, and B. are now dead.

 

Velanna is a bandit who harrassed and killed many humans, so all of them are victims. All of the humans affected by Zathrians curse suffered immensely, not to mention the Lady of the forest herself. Marethari's possesion did not go beyone her own clan, but Hawke had to risk his/her life fighting her (As well as whichever companions were with him/her at the time). And Imshael is the biggest offender of all, now putting an entire country in danger. 

 

I'm sure it will really help the Mages position when it is revealed that Imsahel was summoned by Dalish Mages. Not like something like that could completely ruin the legitimacy of their argument that mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant being locked away. It will only increase racism and prejudice against city elves as well. 

[AresKeith]

You're wasting your breath. They would rather pretend that the Chantry version is all that exists, despite the Dalish codex reading that humans invaded the Dales because the elves of the kingdom wouldn't convert, and the elven Warden verbally condemning the Chantry over this.

 

Can you not, people are well aware there are two versions

[Master Warder Z_]

I was going to say that Marethari contradicted that in DA2... then I recalled that Marethari was possessed by Audacity and was likely lying her ass off about "kill me and it dies too," so I suppose you're right. "Fallen to wisphood," then, though I doubt anything suggests that Forbidden Ones (the Forgotten Ones are the evil Dalish gods) are particularly resistant to wisphood.

 

Well so far they have all been immensely powerful demons, Higher scale Pride Demons, Desire and now one for "Choice" and if we go by the scant lore on this subject, then it seems it requires many subsequent destruction for a wisp to be formed, a singular defeat would not accomplish it.

[Hellion Rex]

Returned to the Fade you mean, Demon's cannot "die" they can be dispersed into Wisps, but somehow i doubt one defeat would turn a Forgotten one into a wisp.

Indeed. Most demons are just banished back to the Fade, somewhat diminished. So I suppose technically, Xebenkeck and Gaxkang are still alive and kicking.

[Master Warder Z_]

Indeed. Most demons are just banished back to the Fade, somewhat diminished. So I suppose technically, Xebenkeck and Gaxkang are still alive and kicking.

 

And the Formless one is still out there *Shudders* If there ever was something i actually would not like to meet in the DA universe...That would be it.

[Xilizhra]

Velanna is a bandit who harrassed and killed many humans, so all of them are victims. All of the humans affected by Zathrians curse suffered immensely, not to mention the Lady of the forest herself. Marethari's possesion did not go beyone her own clan, but Hawke had to risk his/her life fighting her (As well as whichever companions were with him/her at the time). And Imshael is the biggest offender of all, now putting the entire country in danger. 

 

I'm sure it will really help the Mages position when it is revealed that Imsahel was summoned by Dalish Mages. Not like something like that could completely ruin the legitimacy of their argument that mages aren't dangerous enough to warrant being locked away. It will only increase racism and prejudice against city elves as well. 

And again, none of this even comes close to  matching the scale of what human societies do to each other. The Orlesian occupation of Ferelden probably outweighs all of them alone. Would you say that Orlais, too, had to be destroyed?

[KC_Prototype]

I'm going to assume every character is from the Free Marches.

Human=Noble from there

Elf= Clan is somewhere there

Dwarf= Chilling in one of the cities there

Qunari= Doing whatever Qunari do in one of the cities there

 

Idk why i just get that feeling.

I'm hope not, I hope they spread them around. 

[AresKeith]

Indeed. Most demons are just banished back to the Fade, somewhat diminished. So I suppose technically, Xebenkeck and Gaxkang are still alive and kicking.

 

Probably plotting revenge

[Ianamus]

And again, none of this even comes close to  matching the scale of what human societies do to each other. The Orlesian occupation of Ferelden probably outweighs all of them alone. Would you say that Orlais, too, had to be destroyed?

 

The Dalish don't have to be destroyed, they just shouldn't be allowed to have mages and forced to settle so that it can be enforced.

 

And talking about scale: You're comparing the atrocity committed by an entire country and it's royal army to that of a few wandering elf clans. The Dalish have caused/allowed an insane amount of suffering and pain given how small their population is.

[TK514]

The bold. That, and they then use it to justify the state of things now, up to and including that the occupation of Dalish lands negates the Dalish right to them. Alternately, they demand instead that unless the Dalish can take back their lands, but not violently because that's somehow unfair to the poor innocent humans squatting there, the Dalish clearly don't deserve their own lands. It's all circular.

 

Squatting.  Hmm.  What's the statute of limitations on squatting?  How long do you have to live there before you aren't a 'squatter'?  And did the Dalish satisfy that time frame?  They were only there for 200 years, and there were at least three owners previous.

[Hellion Rex]

And the Formless one is still out there *Shudders* If there ever was something i actually would not like to meet in the DA universe...That would be it.

Indeed. I feel like that's the strongest of them all.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish don't have to be destroyed, they just shouldn't be allowed to have mages. 

 

And talking about scale: Your comparing the atrocity committed by an entire country and it's royal army to that of a few wandering elf clans. The Dalish have caused an insane amount of suffering and pain given how small their population is.

I would strongly disagree on both counts. And if you want to lower the scale, take everything in Kirkwall. Take Howe's elite guard ravaging the Alienage. Take a noblewoman's vanity almost destroying Redcliffe; for that matter, take the Orlesian who slaughtered everyone in Blackmarsh. Shall I go on?

[Master Warder Z_]

Squatting.  Hmm.  What's the statute of limitations on squatting?  How long do you have to live there before you aren't a 'squatter'?  And did the Dalish satisfy that time frame?  They were only there for 200 years, and there were at least three owners previous.

 

I wonder if we run into the specter of a previous owner of the dales in DAI

 

And he will be like an older human gentlemen and command them with a booming ghost like voice to.

 

"GET OFF ME LAND BEFORE I GO GET MY STICK!"

[Dean_the_Young]

"Barely any trouble" by Thedosian standards. And given that the clan at the beginning of Origins fled after one potentially hostile encounter with humans, it doesn't seem entirely likely that most clans would be willing to take the risk of being human-reaping marauders; the only other examples we've seen thus far, issues with magic, are vastly outweighed by disasters within the Circle.

It's nice to know that you don't think outlier settlement losses and random acts of persecution qualify as barely any trouble by Thedosian standards since they presumably accept the consequences of the casual murder and occasional magical massacre from frequently moving nomads as the normal state of affairs. Because, you know, in a world of real apocalyptic events and with both a history dominating slave-holding empire and a frighteningly totalitarian conversionist empire, casual racist murdering is barely any trouble by comparison.

 

Gee, if only there was some other group whose casual suffering of racism was taken for granted and barely any trouble by Thedosian standards as well...

[Dean_the_Young]

I would strongly disagree on both counts. And if you want to lower the scale, take everything in Kirkwall. Take Howe's elite guard ravaging the Alienage. Take a noblewoman's vanity almost destroying Redcliffe; for that matter, take the Orlesian who slaughtered everyone in Blackmarsh. Shall I go on?

 

You probably should. You haven't made a point yet about how unaccountable mages are any more acceptable than corrupt nobles (who, in one of your points, was complicit in unaccountable magecraft).

[TK514]

They didn't stop her from fighting against humans who were looking for a fight, you mean.

 

I didn't realize all those merchants she murdered were looking for a fight.

[Ianamus]

I would strongly disagree on both counts. And if you want to lower the scale, take everything in Kirkwall. Take Howe's elite guard ravaging the Alienage. Take a noblewoman's vanity almost destroying Redcliffe; for that matter, take the Orlesian who slaughtered everyone in Blackmarsh. Shall I go on?

 

All of those were solved though. Howe paid for his crimes, Isolde's son is taken to be trained, as he should have been (or is dead. or she is dead), the Orlesian who slaughtered blackmarsh was put down. 

 

The Dalish having unsupervised and uncontrollable mages is still a problem, and will continue to be no matter what system is formed in the aftermath of the mage/templar conflict. 

 

Their illegal squatting and antagonistic attitude to local humans will also continue to be a problem. A growing one, actually, as human cities and settlements are only going to get bigger and more numerous. 

[Xilizhra]

It's nice to know that you don't think outlier settlement losses and random acts of persecution qualify as barely any trouble by Thedosian standards since they presumably accept the consequences of the casual murder and occasional magical massacre from frequently moving nomads as the normal state of affairs. Because, you know, in a world of real apocalyptic events and with both a history dominating slave-holding empire and a frighteningly totalitarian conversionist empire, casual racist murdering is barely any trouble by comparison.

 

Gee, if only there was some other group whose casual suffering of racism was taken for granted and barely any trouble by Thedosian standards as well...

My point is not that it's good or acceptable, but rather that it's not a reason for the Chantry to try to conquer the Dalish again.

[Master Warder Z_]

Indeed. I feel like that's the strongest of them all.

 

I feel like that's the strongest Demon period, All of them so far have just been HEADS and Shoulders Above every other demon, even those in their same weight class.

[Ianamus]

My point is not that it's good or acceptable, but rather that it's not a reason for the Chantry to try to conquer the Dalish again.

 

It's a perfectly legitimate reason for the governing bodies of said countries to remove them from their lands. Forcibly, if required. 

[Kalamah]

I would strongly disagree on both counts. And if you want to lower the scale, take everything in Kirkwall. Take Howe's elite guard ravaging the Alienage. Take a noblewoman's vanity almost destroying Redcliffe; for that matter, take the Orlesian who slaughtered everyone in Blackmarsh. Shall I go on?

Seriously. But the cognitive dissonance is centered on the fact that elves aren't humans, therefore they don't have the Manifest Destiny right to defend themselves against humans, for any reason at all. When it's not "they lost Arlathan and the Dales" it's "they harbor apostates" or "they attack without provocation" because the elves are always wrong. Which is why it always circles back to "the Dalish shot first" to justify human supremacy and excuse the hugely disproportionate actions vs. reactions of the humans against the elves.

 

Because for them to acknowledge that who shot first isn't even relevant anymore would necessitate admitting that the humans are responsible for atrocities against the elves that are barely even disguised genocidal in intent. All because the elves violently resisted losing their second homeland to humans, again. It always ends up back to the fact that the Dalish are a threat for continuing to exist at all. But admitting that outright is too blatant, I guess.

[Xilizhra]

It's a perfectly legitimate reason for the governing bodies of said countries to remove them from their lands. Forcibly, if required. 

Well, then, you'd best get on with ensuring that they have somewhere to live.

[Dean_the_Young]

My point is not that it's good or acceptable, but rather that it's not a reason for the Chantry to try to conquer the Dalish again.

No, your point was precisely an argument of moral equivalence and irrelevance. You were pardoning the same sins you have used as a basis for justifying even more radical action elsewhere. You are, right now, arguing that it should be accepted and tolerated.

 

When you argue that racism is grounds for revolution for group A (and in frequently absolutist terms), but that group B should not be stripped of a demonstratedly harmful policy choice that has had repeadly lethally racist consequences, you are very much arguing that what group B does is acceptable.

[Master Warder Z_]

I thought were all on the same page here on one thing: Humans are SUPERIOR to elves, Qunari and Dwarves

 

So there is no need to "Justify" Human supremacy when it is just fact.

[Ianamus]

Well, then, you'd best get on with ensuring that they have somewhere to live.

 

If a group of gypsies came into my town and started killing people, cursing people or summoning demons why do we have any responsibility to find them somewhere to live?