545 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

No, your point was precisely an argument of moral equivalence and irrelevance. You were pardoning the same sins you have used as a basis for justifying even more radical action elsewhere. You are, right now, arguing that it should be accepted and tolerated.

 

When you argue that racism is grounds for revolution for group A (and in frequently absolutist terms), but that group B should not be stripped of a demonstratedly harmful policy choice that has had repeadly lethally racist consequences, you are very much arguing that what group B does is acceptable.

My issues prior were with what certain groups do as a matter of policy; this is why I hardly ever talk about Alrik or Petrice, for instance. All the Dalish examples of harm done have been with breaking policy; even shooting the humans as a Dalish in Origins contravenes the Keeper's desires.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, then, you'd best get on with ensuring that they have somewhere to live.

 

They do. They've chosen not to even try assimilating. That is entirely on them.

 

It is not the sovereign nation's obligation to ensure that the nomad who refuses to respect their laws or people of the lands they are in has somewhere else to be. It is the nomad's responsibility- either they adjust their behavior in the lands of other people, leave of their own volition, or accept the retaliation of their crimes against the people who live there.

[Master Warder Z_]

If a group of gypsies came into my town and started killing people, cursing people or summoning demons why do we have any responsibility to find them somewhere to live?

 

Exactly, you don't concern yourself with the arrangements of the cockroaches.

 

You exterminate them.

[Hellion Rex]

I feel like that's the strongest Demon period, All of them so far have just been HEADS and Shoulders Above every other demon, even those in their same weight class.

Most definitely. I'm guessing that they were the first demons that came into being.

[Hellion Rex]

You exterminate them.

With extreme prejudice.

[pallascedar]

It's a perfectly legitimate reason for the governing bodies of said countries to remove them from their lands. Forcibly, if required. 

 

It's certainly perfectly legal. But I just think it's problematic. The Dalish squat because they don't have any home to call their own, and even if the fall of the Dales is entirely the Dalish's fault, it's the fault of their ancestors 700 years ago.

 

The only solution we're offering here is that we should take them all prisoner, quash their culture and demand they submit to humans. It's certainly not my idea of justice.

 

And again, I don't think you can use Ishmael as a point about why the Dalish are so incredibly dangerous. Tahrone was almost undoubtedly trained by the circle, and she set Xebeneck loose on Kirkwall. A bunch of random adventurers screwed with Gaxkang. These demons want to be unleashed on the world, and they're perfectly happy to manipulate any mortal, Dalish, Andrastian, Tevinter, whatever.

[Master Warder Z_]

My issues prior were with what certain groups do as a matter of policy; this is why I hardly ever talk about Alrik or Petrice, for instance. All the Dalish examples of harm done have been with breaking policy; even shooting the humans as a Dalish in Origins contravenes the Keeper's desires.

 

In all honesty, i am reminded of the stolen throne and those refugee's that were captured by the Dalish and fed to Flemeth like they were candy.

 

To be honest? That was more monstrous to me then most anything else they have done until they brought a forbidden one into the world.

[Kalamah]

even shooting the humans as a Dalish in Origins contravenes the Keeper's desires.

This reminds me: the interesting thing I noticed was that regardless of the choice Mahariel made about the human hunters, the clan was forced to flee due to the human reaction. It was the same outcome no matter what action was chosen, whether Tamlen and Mahariel let the hunters all go, killed one, or killed them all. If anything, this supports the fact that no matter what the Dalish do, the humans punish them.

[Dean_the_Young]

My issues prior were with what certain groups do as a matter of policy; this is why I hardly ever talk about Alrik or Petrice, for instance. All the Dalish examples of harm done have been with breaking policy; even shooting the humans as a Dalish in Origins contravenes the Keeper's desires.

 

If the Keeper's desires constitute policy, then all the mage abuses have been directly sanctioned or practiced by the policy makers. If the Keeper's desires do not constitute policy, than the Dalish Warden casually murdering would not be breaking policy (and certainly would not be breaking a cultural norm- it is unadvised, but not a social taboo). Of course, it's also irrelevant: policy is irrelevant if it's systematically broken, a position you have reflected repeatedly time and time again in other contexts.

 

And it's odd that you should cite Petrice in this context. She has many sins, but racism is not one of them.

[TK514]

It's certainly perfectly legal. But I just think it's problematic. The Dalish squat because they don't have any home to call their own, and even if the fall of the Dales is entirely the Dalish's fault, it's the fault of their ancestors 700 years ago.

 

The only solution we're offering here is that we should take them all prisoner, quash their culture and demand they submit to humans. It's certainly not my idea of justice.

 

And again, I don't think you can use Ishmael as a point about why the Dalish are so incredibly dangerous. Tahrone was almost undoubtedly trained by the circle, and she set Xebeneck loose on Kirkwall. A bunch of random adventurers screwed with Gaxkang. These demons want to be unleashed on the world, and they're perfectly happy to manipulate any mortal, Dalish, Andrastian, Tevinter, whatever.

 

Tangent:  Tahrone was trained and corrupted by at least partially sentient books that lead directly to one of the nastiest demons on record.  I don't think the Circle had much to do with that.  I don't think it's even clear if she was previously a Circle Mage or not, though it really doesn't matter.

[Xilizhra]

If a group of gypsies came into my town and started killing people, cursing people or summoning demons why do we have any responsibility to find them somewhere to live?

Well, firstly, I'm fairly sure "gypsy" is a slur, so you're not helping your case. Second, you'd have no reason to take action until they actually did such things, and then you would take action against the individuals involved, not whole societies. Third, you don't want them wandering around, do you?

 

 

They do. They've chosen not to even try assimilating. That is entirely on them.

 

It is not the sovereign nation's obligation to ensure that the nomad who refuses to respect their laws or people of the lands they are in has somewhere else to be. It is the nomad's responsibility- either they adjust their behavior in the lands of other people, leave of their own volition, or accept the retaliation of their crimes against the people who live there.

If we're going to start talking about moral/legal principles that not everyone will agree on, I will say in turn that it's the obligation of religious powers to not launch prosecution and conversion attempts upon those who don't follow their religion, and for sovereign nations to be governed by representations of their people. The lack of all of which is why the Dalish haven't assimilated.

[Ianamus]

It's certainly perfectly legal. But I just think it's problematic. The Dalish squat because they don't have any home to call their own, and even if the fall of the Dales is entirely the Dalish's fault, it's the fault of their ancestors 700 years ago.

 

The only solution we're offering here is that we should take them all prisoner, quash their culture and demand they submit to humans. It's certainly not my idea of justice.

 

 

The Dalish have no interest in co-existing with human culture though, or of trying to live within human culture. A good example is when Celene offered them honorary lordship of the Dales in The Masked Empire and they basically said "We want the Dales after all the humans are dead".

 

Hard to feel any sympathy, really.

[Samahl]

If a group of gypsies came into my town and started killing people, cursing people or summoning demons why do we have any responsibility to find them somewhere to live?

 

Oh fun, real racism, just what this thread needed.

[pallascedar]

Tangent:  Tahrone was trained and corrupted by at least partially sentient books that lead directly to one of the nastiest demons on record.  I don't think the Circle had much to do with that.  I don't think it's even clear if she was previously a Circle Mage or not, though it really doesn't matter.

 

Yeah, but that's my point: whatever Tahrone's origins she found Xebeneck. When one clan of Dalish lets lose a demon of a type we've seen twice already, I just don't think it constitutes a good reason to say "Well, all Dalish must be extraordinarily dangerous."

[Ianamus]

Oh fun, real racism, just what this thread needed.

 

I meant "gypsy" in the more generic 'travelling community' sense, not the ethnic sense. 

[Hellion Rex]

 

And it's odd that you should cite Petrice in this context. She has many sins, but racism is not one of them.

Wasn't she though?

 

....then again, I guess it was more of prejudice against the Qunari way of life than racism against the horny people.

[Samahl]

I meant "gypsy" in the more generic 'travelling community' sense, not the ethnic sense. 

 

Though I have to admit, I'm now picturing "Big fat Dalish wedding". 

 

It's still a slur, and you still invoked racial stereotypes in association with it. I know you were originally talking about elves, but honestly, your comment was incredibly thoughtless.

[Maria Caliban]

I rather like the Dalish and their culture...

An understatement so vast, I could build Rapture in it.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's certainly perfectly legal. But I just think it's problematic. The Dalish squat because they don't have any home to call their own, and even if the fall of the Dales is entirely the Dalish's fault, it's the fault of their ancestors 700 years ago.

 

 

They do, though. They aren't appealing options, but they do exist: there are still ungoverned and uncontrolled territories in Thedas far from national control (the Ferelden South is an example), while the alienages is also home to as many or more elves than the Dalish. And Dalish certainly can immigrate to them, even if they quite understandbly don't want to.

 

The Dalish have bad options, but they do have options. They don't need to maintain their current conduct in the established nations.

 

 

 

 

 

The only solution we're offering here is that we should take them all prisoner, quash their culture and demand they submit to humans. It's certainly not my idea of justice.

 

 

Not quite. Ianamus is offering them to give up their mages. Most others would be content if they did not maintain racist practices and casually murder or avenge themselves on innocent humans.

 

The first is contentious, but the second is pretty reasonable.
 

 

And again, I don't think you can use Ishmael as a point about why the Dalish are so incredibly dangerous. Tahrone was almost undoubtedly trained by the circle, and she set Xebeneck loose on Kirkwall. A bunch of random adventurers screwed with Gaxkang. These demons want to be unleashed on the world, and they're perfectly happy to manipulate any mortal, Dalish, Andrastian, Tevinter, whatever.

 

Sure. And in Andrastian lands, they have set up institutions to try and prevent and mitigate the threat. They don't want it in their lands, and they try and prevent it.

 

The Dalish have no institutions beyond Keeper Knows Best, and the Keepers have been the most involved with magical abuses against the Humans. They don't want it to affect them, but they've demonstrated precious little concern about the impacts on the humans in the lands they do it in.

[Master Warder Z_]

I meant "gypsy" in the more generic 'travelling community' sense, not the ethnic sense. 

 

Ancient Astronaut theories

[pallascedar]

The Dalish have no interest in co-existing with human culture though, or of trying to live within human culture. A good example is when Celene offered them honorary lordship of the Dales in The Masked Empire and they basically said "We want the Dales after all the humans are dead".

 

Hard to feel any sympathy, really.

 

That's also one clan. It's kinda silly that we judge the Dalish based on the actions of one group of radicals while we readily forgive Andrastian society its radicals. (Hello Petrice and Varnell. And Alrik. And Meredith. And Marjolaine. And Loghain. The list of awful humans who have caused huge amounts of chaos and general terribleness is much longer.) Also, lets be real, Celene was bsing and the Dalish knew it.

 

When Alistair/Anora grants Zathrian's clans a piece of land they happily accept it and Lanaya looks forward towards a peaceful relation with humans.

[Ianamus]

It's still a slur, and you still invoked racial stereotypes in association with it. I know you were originally talking about elves, but honestly, your comment was incredibly thoughtless.

 

Not really. I live in the UK and not only is it not really a slur but all of the actual gypsies here are white Irish catholics. 

 

They are also incredibly annoying because they squat illegally, are impossible to move and leave all their rubbish behind when they do eventually go. You can say goodbye to your property value.  

[Master Warder Z_]

An understatement so vast, I could build Rapture in it.

 

Wouldn't that possibly cause a golf club incident though?

[Samahl]

Wasn't she though?

 

....then again, I guess it was more of prejudice against the Qunari way of life than racism against the horny people.

 

Religious prejudice is racialized so often they may as well be the same thing. Nobody's going to look at a Vashoth qunari and perceive them as anything but adherents to the Qun.

[MisterJB]

This reminds me: the interesting thing I noticed was that regardless of the choice Mahariel made about the human hunters, the clan was forced to flee due to the human reaction. It was the same outcome no matter what action was chosen, whether Tamlen and Mahariel let the hunters all go, killed one, or killed them all. If anything, this supports the fact that no matter what the Dalish do, the humans punish them.

Because they weren't allowing people to safely travel within the forest.

It's an outlier community; it most likely relies upon the forest's resources. They probably cut wood to build homes, warm them and selling the surplus and hunted for meat, furs and trade.

Even if they didn't, we're still talking about a group of foreigners suddenly arriving and deciding that they get to decide who can and can't travel.