Here, you two. You'll need this for the Dalish. You put them on one anyway.
*And before you get mad, I'm only jesting.
Ah, the terrible curse of shortness.
But thank you; I'll be over here playing the elves I actually want to play. Whose society isn't riddled with Tall Poppy Syndrome.
Honestly, I think the very point is that all religions, cultures, countries and races are mired in shades of grey. It would be no fun if any one was the obvious shining beacon. 
Elves have been given a height boost in DA:I apparently XD
Ah, the terrible curse of shortness.
But thank you; I'll be over here playing the elves I actually want to play. Whose society isn't riddled with Tall Poppy Syndrome.
Screw you, Xil. 
Here, you two. You'll need this for the Dalish. You put them on one anyway.
Frankly, I see more of an issue with some people in this thread acting as though every Dalish is a jerk. We have a plethora of Dalish who were hospitable to the protagonist in Zathrian's camp, from Lanaya, Elora, Cammen, Gheyna, Athras, and Deygan. Sure, there's Sarel, but he's hostile because he recently lost his wife to the werewolves, which is explicitly stated to a Dalish Warden.
It's what irritates me about some of the initial posts in the previous page, where people act as though the entirety of the Dalish are the same. They aren't. Historically, we have a clan adopting a human child who was abandoned by her parents, and we have the Dalish clans signing a treaty with the Grey Wardens to help fight the Blight, despite losing their homeland and everything they had to humans. We even have a Dalish companion like Merrill who views the people in the Alienage as elves, befriends them, and tells Fenris that their plight matters.
Things aren't good for either the Dalish or the city elves, and I hate how it constantly has to be turned into a comparison by some players when both groups deserve much better, but it's incredibly disingenuous how some people make remarks like "doesn't think they are doing anything positive to help the elves", give me a break. The Dalish refusing to capitulate to human rule and following their own religion isn't sufficient cause to vilify them.
Honestly, I think the very point is that all religions, cultures, countries and races are mired in shades of grey. It would be no fun if any one was the obvious shining beacon.
But apparently great fun if one gets treated like the obvious shining beacon, or at least that seems to be Bioware's attitude toward the Chantry.
Things aren't good for either the Dalish or the city elves, and I hate how it constantly has to be turned into a comparison by some players when both groups deserve much better, but it's incredibly disingenuous how some people make remarks like "doesn't think they are doing anything positive to help the elves", give me a break. The Dalish refusing to capitulate to human rule and following their own religion isn't sufficient cause to vilify them.
Yeah, what could the Dalish realistically do to help elves in the Alienage? They aren't welcome in human cities.
But apparently great fun if one gets treated like the obvious shining beacon, or at least that seems to be Bioware's attitude toward the Chantry.
I'm not sure I've seen that at all, considering the crap the Chantry has pulled in the past? I don't think Bioware means us to see any of that as okay? It's been a while since I've played the games, though, so there might be instances I don't remember.
But apparently great fun if one gets treated like the obvious shining beacon, or at least that seems to be Bioware's attitude toward the Chantry.
It's not a shining beacon, though. It's simply the dominant human religion. And Thedas is at this point dominated by humans.
Honestly, I think the very point is that all religions, cultures, countries and races are mired in shades of grey. It would be no fun if any one was the obvious shining beacon.
I don't think anyone believes that everyone from a specific group is a paragon of goodness, but it's a little irritating for some of us who like the Dalish that they constantly get vilified in their entirety, particularly as some CE fans tend to do this, and it simply causes hostility. Sure, some Dalish aren't good people, but that's also true for the city elves, as some of them denigrate the elves who try to live outside the Alienage, to the point of considering them as tossing aside everything that makes them elven, and even view the Dalish as little more than "savages".
Nobody is perfect, that's certainly true, but I don't see why we can't all be in unison about the fact that the Dalish and the City elves have gotten a bad hand dealt to them by humanity.
Yeah, what could the Dalish realistically do to help elves in the Alienage? They aren't welcome in human cities.
Welcoming them to join their clans without requiring them to follow their religion would be a good start.
I'm not sure I've seen that at all, considering the crap the Chantry has pulled in the past? I don't think Bioware means us to see any of that as okay? It's been a while since I've played the games, though, so there might be instances I don't remember.
Moreso in DA2, with how Cassandra, Leliana and Elthina were presented.
Welcoming them to join their clans without requiring them to follow their religion would be a good start.
Which could work, provided that they wouldn't try to convert anyone or betray anyone's location to the templars.
With regard to Shartan converting to the worship of the Maker, I'd always thought it was a bit ambiguous from what his spirit said in the Gauntlet but then someone posted that World of Thedas definitely says he did. That is what got me questioning the situation in the Dales between its foundation as the homeland and the Exalted March. The information about Shartan converting certainly seemed to explain why he is barely mentioned by Dalish lorekeepers. You'd think he be right up there as an example to young elves but instead they just mention "our leaders" who died at the time. I have pointed out before that essentially Shartan was a city elf. If he had also either never known the elven gods (more likely) or abandoned them in favour of the Maker then this would be an embarrassment to the Dalish idea that the homeland of the Dales was a reward of the Creators to those elves who persisted with the Long March. Why on earth would the elves think the Creators had rewarded them? It was Shartan in an alliance with Andraste who had achieved this, following the Maker, and Maferath/his sons had honoured whatever agreement they had had.
In the aftermath of Andrastes' death there was a general mood against mages throughout Thedas. Even in Tevinter there was a time when they were not allowed in government. In a way it is hardly surprising that Chantry missionaries some 200 years later would be horrified to discover that not only had the elves abandoned the faith in the Maker but they were being governed by mages. When those rulers failed to offer any assistance during the 2nd Blight, elves attacked Red Crossing, sacked Montsimmard before marching on Val Royeaux itself, it is really hardily surprising that the Orlesians reacted as they did, with or without Chantry backing.
I'm glad that we are at last going to be exploring the Dales and old elven ruins because I'm hopeful that we get some more light cast on this particular period of history because for me something doesn't add up in the way the culture of the Dales developed and why they became so focussed on looking back instead of building a future for themselves.
Moreso in DA2, with how Cassandra, Leliana and Elthina were presented.
Well, I would hope it's completely okay for certain members of a religion to be good?
And Ethina... I think depends on interpretation. Her not stepping in to stop something she could have certainly wasn't grand.
Welcoming them to join their clans without requiring them to follow their religion would be a good start.
They're not a pan-elven group, however; they're a group dedicated to following their gods and adhering to their culture. Somewhat similar to the Sephardic Jews who adopted a nomadic lifestyle.
Welcoming them to join their clans without requiring them to follow their religion would be a good start.
Even if this was the case, how would the message reach the average Alienage elf?
Things aren't good for either the Dalish or the city elves, and I hate how it constantly has to be turned into a comparison by some players when both groups deserve much better, but it's incredibly disingenuous how some people make remarks like "doesn't think they are doing anything positive to help the elves", give me a break. The Dalish refusing to capitulate to human rule and following their own religion isn't sufficient cause to vilify them.
I prefer to play as a Dalish elf myself for many reasons and I'd rather live life as a free person than to be under some Shemlen's boot.
I don't think anyone believes that everyone from a specific group is a paragon of goodness, but it's a little irritating for some of us who like the Dalish that they constantly get vilified in their entirety, particularly as some CE fans tend to do this, and it simply causes hostility. Sure, some Dalish aren't good people, but that's also true for the city elves, as some of them denigrate the elves who try to live outside the Alienage, to the point of considering them as tossing aside everything that makes them elven, and even view the Dalish as little more than "savages".
Nobody is perfect, that's certainly true, but I don't see why we can't all be in unison about the fact that the Dalish and the City elves have gotten a bad hand dealt to them by humanity.
Ah, I see. It's always strange to me when people have competitions like that. What I took away from the origin stories in DA:O was that everyone had it bad in one way or another.
Moreso in DA2, with how Cassandra, Leliana and Elthina were presented.
As opposed to Alrik, Petrice, and Varnell?
There are saints and sinners everywhere.
Even if this was the case, how would the message reach the average Alienage elf?
Not to mention the very purpose of the clans moving about is to spread out so there aren't too many elves in one place to draw attention, and risk attack.
But apparently great fun if one gets treated like the obvious shining beacon, or at least that seems to be Bioware's attitude toward the Chantry.
Meh.You could say the Chantry is responsible for the mages/templars war.
They just got a pro reform Divine lately.But it sort of didn't work too well.
Now the faith of the Maker is more popular than the Creators , but the Creators are gone since Arlathan fell .The Maker became popular with Andraste.
Anyway we're going into some old elven ruins in DAI.We didn't have that in DA2 , I think.Well there was Sundermount...but not a lot of lore there.
I just think overall there's a good chance of getting new insight about elven culture and myth, and I think those myth are going to play a role.(Like Flemeth being reborn on an elven altar?...)
I'm pretty sure Fen Harel is going to be important too.
Why on earth would the elves think the Creators had rewarded them?
For... the same reason that literally any follower of any religion feels that they've been favored by their divinity of choice during moments of triumph? Elthina says that about the Hero of Ferelden even if the Hero defiled the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so that's probably not accurate either.
I'm glad that we are at last going to be exploring the Dales and old elven ruins because I'm hopeful that we get some more light cast on this particular period of history because for me something doesn't add up in the way the culture of the Dales developed and why they became so focussed on looking back instead of building a future for themselves.
They were building a future for themselves, just not an Andrastian one.
Well, I would hope it's completely okay for certain members of a religion to be good?
And Ethina... I think depends on interpretation. Her no stepping in to stop something she could have certainly wasn't grand.
Elthina was a criminally negligent ******, but the game seems to want to avoid calling her such.
As opposed to Alrik, Petrice, and Varnell?
There are saints and sinners everywhere.
Templars were disingenuously separated from the Chantry in presentation, and Petrice was allegedly a rogue.
The way the Chantry's worshippers have been depicted throughout the games has kind of struck me like a sliding scale analogous to most modern-day religions. You have the militantly devout (Petrice/Patrice/Patrick Stewart), the moderates (Elthina, arguably Justinia, Leliana if hardened, I'd say) and those who just sort of pay lip-service to the faith because it's there (a lot of the common folk we see milling around places like Lothering and Denerim.
I think part of the issue is that DA2 hammered home extremism as a problem so hard so constantly that all the moderate voices were swallowed up by the extreme ones, so in the end we're left with a picture of a Chantry that seems ready to go on another Exalted March... even if that's a perspective only shared by a zealous minority of its adherents.
I mean, I have a serious issue with religious that actively proselytize period, but I'm willing to give a bit of credit where it's due.
And just so we're clear, I thought Elthina's inaction was a serious problem. But at least she wasn't all about murdering people for her morning jollies.
They're not a pan-elven group, however; they're a group dedicated to following their gods and adhering to their culture. Somewhat similar to the Sephardic Jews who adopted a nomadic lifestyle.
Then their whole "We care about our City Elf brethren" line that those Dalish who don't see them as traitors or subelfs say is a lie. If they care, they wouldn't do what the humans did and force them to either adhere to their culture or fend for themselves.
Even if this was the case, how would the message reach the average Alienage elf?
A Dalish elf can enter an Alienage simple enough, and elves can leave just as easily. We've seen both happen ingame.
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