Then their whole "We care about our City Elf brethren" line that those who don't see them as traitors or subelfs is a lie. If you care, you wouldn't do what the humans did and force them to either adhere to your culture or fend for themselves.
Again, I don't think it'd be a huge problem as long as you're not disrespecting the Creators or betraying the clan's mages.
I'm glad that we are at last going to be exploring the Dales and old elven ruins because I'm hopeful that we get some more light cast on this particular period of history because for me something doesn't add up in the way the culture of the Dales developed and why they became so focussed on looking back instead of building a future for themselves.
The Dalish have two primary goals: 1) preserve their culture, and 2) survive without depending on/being subservient to humans. Until they gain some sort of leverage over humans, that's all they can do.
Templars were disingenuously separated from the Chantry in presentation, and Petrice was allegedly a rogue.
Please elaborate on the Templars.
And while Petrice was acting outside her authority, she was still a Chantry Mother. Was Alrik not still a Templar even though he acted outside Meredith's authority?
Why betray them when they are getting sanctuary themselves? I don't see any city elf really betraying the clan even if those Dalish were asses.Again, I don't think it'd be a huge problem as long as you're not disrespecting the Creators or betraying the clan's mages.
Please elaborate on the Templars.
And while Petrice was acting outside her authority, she was still a Chantry Mother. Was Alrik not still a Templar even though he acted outside Meredith's authority?
Elthina claiming that she somehow couldn't control the templars.
And to be frank, I doubt that Petrice was actually acting outside of Elthina's authority. I suspect she was Elthina's sacrificial pawn.
With regard to Shartan converting to the worship of the Maker, I'd always thought it was a bit ambiguous from what his spirit said in the Gauntlet but then someone posted that World of Thedas definitely says he did. That is what got me questioning the situation in the Dales between its foundation as the homeland and the Exalted March. The information about Shartan converting certainly seemed to explain why he is barely mentioned by Dalish lorekeepers. You'd think he be right up there as an example to young elves but instead they just mention "our leaders" who died at the time. I have pointed out before that essentially Shartan was a city elf. If he had also either never known the elven gods (more likely) or abandoned them in favour of the Maker then this would be an embarrassment to the Dalish idea that the homeland of the Dales was a reward of the Creators to those elves who persisted with the Long March. Why on earth would the elves think the Creators had rewarded them? It was Shartan in an alliance with Andraste who had achieved this, following the Maker, and Maferath/his sons had honoured whatever agreement they had had.
The Dalish history addresses Andraste as the "shemlen prophet" (and even Velanna comments that she respects her) while Shartan is mentioned in their history. The real issue that the elven perspective tends to be marginalized. The elven perspectives in general for the Dalish and the City elves tend to get omitted in favor of human-centric stories. It's a problem I have with Dragon Age, as it leads to issues like Merrill's comments about the Dalish viewing all spirits as dangerous is relegated as companion banter rather than something she explicitly addresses in dialogue with Hawke.
In the aftermath of Andrastes' death there was a general mood against mages throughout Thedas. Even in Tevinter there was a time when they were not allowed in government. In a way it is hardly surprising that Chantry missionaries some 200 years later would be horrified to discover that not only had the elves abandoned the faith in the Maker but they were being governed by mages. When those rulers failed to offer any assistance during the 2nd Blight, elves attacked Red Crossing, sacked Montsimmard before marching on Val Royeaux itself, it is really hardily surprising that the Orlesians reacted as they did, with or without Chantry backing.
There's no evidence the elves followed Andraste's religion. There's no evidence that Shartan even genuinely converted (i.e. that he honestly believed in the Maker).
I'm glad that we are at last going to be exploring the Dales and old elven ruins because I'm hopeful that we get some more light cast on this particular period of history because for me something doesn't add up in the way the culture of the Dales developed and why they became so focussed on looking back instead of building a future for themselves.
I'm glad about that as well. The elven perspectives and history deserve to get some focus.
Why betray them when they are getting sanctuary themselves? I don't see any city elf really betraying the clan even if those Dalish were asses.
Well, that's great, then. And I think the religious question will more or less solve itself, given that city elf converts can't be that Andrastian if they want to run off and join the heathens.
But at what cost? Masked Empire teaches us that when they get desperate, they are prone to act pretty damn stupid to reclaim their culture.The Dalish have two goals: 1) preserve their culture, and 2) survive without depending on/being subservient to humans. Until they gain some sort of leverage over humans, that's all they can do.
But at what cost? Masked Empire teaches us that when they get desperate, they are prone to act pretty damn stupid to reclaim their culture.
Variable costs, but the Chantry's shed far more blood through nineteen Annulments.
So? I'm not comparing the 2 groups. I was simply referring to the dangerous fixation on the past that the Dalish hold.Variable costs, but the Chantry's shed far more blood through nineteen Annulments.
A Dalish elf can enter an Alienage simple enough, and elves can leave just as easily. We've seen both happen ingame.
I don't think it happens often enough to have a meaningful impact in a relationship between Dalish and Alienage elves.
There really isn't much of a relationship between the two groups....which makes it odd when I read that some think the Dalish are somehow mistreating the city elves.
But at what cost? Masked Empire teaches us that when they get desperate, they are prone to act pretty damn stupid to reclaim their culture.
Arguably in TME teaches us that all peoples do stupid things when they get desperate / power hungry. Arguably, a certain City Elf makes the most stupid actions (in a book about lies and deceit, she trusts a man she knows nothing about about things she knows nothing about).
So? I'm not comparing the 2 groups. I was simply referring to the dangerous fixation on the past that the Dalish hold.
My point being that it's not that dangerous in the context of the setting, which is to say that it is, but that's the case with many pursuits.
I agree with that. But again, we were speaking of the Dalish fixation on the past , so I was using TME as an example.Arguably in TME teaches us that all peoples do stupid things when they get desperate / power hungry. Arguably, a certain City Elf makes the most stupid actions (in a book about lies and deceit, she trusts a man she knows nothing about about things she knows nothing about).
I don't think it happens often enough to have a meaningful impact in a relationship between Dalish and Alienage elves.
There really isn't much of a relationship between the two groups....which makes it odd when I read that some think the Dalish are somehow mistreating the city elves.
Of course not. The Dalish don't seem to try.
As for mistreating City Elves, it's more that many don't view them as "true elves" but rather traitors to their race and no better than the humans who destroyed their culture.
Then their whole "We care about our City Elf brethren" line that those Dalish who don't see them as traitors or subelfs say is a lie. If they care, they wouldn't do what the humans did and force them to either adhere to their culture or fend for themselves.
The Dalish are surviving in an environment where their religion was criminalized by the Chantry, where human lords and lynch mobs drive them off land when they stay too long, and where templars pursue them. It's not as though the Dalish are living an idyllic existence, they live a life of hardship, but one that enables them to live free from human rule.
A Dalish elf can enter an Alienage simple enough, and elves can leave just as easily. We've seen both happen ingame.
I'd say that Varric's connections to the templars (like his friendship with Ser Thrask) helped out with Marethari entering the Alienage with ease, given that there's little doubt that she would have been apprehended by the templars otherwise. Not to mention that the law simply isn't on the side of the elves if there's trouble; in Ferelden, for example, it's illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf.
Hold up. So what you are saying is that what the Dalish did in TME was not that dangerous?My point being that it's not that dangerous in the context of the setting, which is to say that it is, but that's the case with many pursuits.
I think the lesson is that there's extremest and moderates in every group. And there's good and bad in every group. That's 'human' nature, right? So of course there's Andrastians who are good, like Leliana and what we've seen of the Divine, and what we've seen of Cassandra. And there's Dalish that are jerks, like... some? of the clan in TME. (I haven't actually finished that book yet, but I hear a lot of rage for the Dalish around it?)
Of course not. The Dalish don't seem to try.
As for mistreating City Elves, it's more that many don't view them as "true elves" but rather traitors to their race and no better than the humans who destroyed their culture.
Well, they follow the same religion that destroyed their culture. While there'd be reason to sympathize with those first city elves who were just unable to escape and were forced into human cities, their descendents are no more trustworthy than the human underclass, unless they display interest in working with the Dalish.
in Ferelden, for example, it's illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf.
Wait, seriously?
The Dalish in TME really irritated me in this regard.Of course not. The Dalish don't seem to try.
As for mistreating City Elves, it's more that many don't view them as "true elves" but rather traitors to their race and no better than the humans who destroyed their culture.
But at what cost? Masked Empire teaches us that when they get desperate, they are prone to act pretty damn stupid to reclaim their culture.
Please don't claim that an atypical clan is representative of Dalish who actually adhere to the tenants of their culture.
I think the lesson is that there's extremest and moderates in every group. And there's good and bad in every group. That's 'human' nature, right? So of course there's Andrastians who are good, like Leliana and what we've seen of the Divine, and what we've seen of Cassandra. And there's Dalish that are jerks, like the clan in TME.
Leliana is dubiously good after DAO. I would disagree with Justinia being good, and Cassandra is largely an unknown quantity.
I don't think that's a real law. I think that it's just something that happens due to nobles being asses.Wait, seriously?
Wait, seriously?
Unfortunately, yes. It's something that I'd hope a progressive ruler like Alistair would revoke as law (or that an elven Inquisitor can demand get stricken down as part of the bargain for dealing with the Breach).
I don't think that's a real law. I think that it's just something that happens due to nobles being asses.
You're wrong, as it's stated to be a real law.
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