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[Xilizhra]

The Dalish in TME really irritated me in this regard.

You know, the Dalish are actually being less racist to distrust city elves and humans equally.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Dalish are surviving in an environment where their religion was criminalized by the Chantry, where human lords and lynch mobs drive them off land when they stay too long, and where templars pursue them. It's not as though the Dalish are living an idyllic existence, they live a life of hardship, but one that enables them to live free from human rule.

 

 

I'd say that Varric's connections to the templars (like his friendship with Ser Thrask) helped out with Marethari entering the Alienage with ease, given that there's little doubt that she would have been apprehended by the templars otherwise. Not to mention that the law simply isn't on the side of the elves if there's trouble; in Ferelden, for example, it's illegal to kill a human in defense of an elf.

I don't see what your first part of your post has anything to do with what I said. 

 

And I'm not saying send a Keeper. A nonmage Dalish can enter as well to spread the word. 

[Hellion Rex]

Unfortunately, yes. It's something that I'd hope a progressive ruler like Alistair would revoke as law (or that an elven Inquisitor can demand get stricken down as part of the bargain for dealing with the Breach).

When did that "law" come up in Origins?

[jlb524]

Of course not. The Dalish don't seem to try. 

 

Even if they really really wanted to, they wouldn't be allowed to enter the city/alienage.  Marethari was an exception.

 

 

As for mistreating City Elves, it's more that many don't view them as "true elves" but rather traitors to their race and no better than the humans who destroyed their culture. 

 

These are prejudices some Dalish have.  City elves have certain prejudices against Dalish elves. 

 

The ones actually mistreating city elves are humans.

[Statare]

The Dalish in TME really irritated me in this regard.

 

I think that was a strategy of the story, and less an accurate representation of the Dalish. A huge moment of the plot is Felassan getting Briala to abandon any hope of working with the Dalish. We as readers are meant to sympathize with Briala, and so if the Dalish are presented as jerks, we are more willing as readers to follow along and believe in Briala. The true question of TME, to me, is why Felassan wanted to get control of the Eluvians away from the Dalish, who at least know something of the past, and into the hand of Briala who is at best naive about the past. 

[Hellion Rex]

You know, the Dalish are actually being less racist to distrust city elves and humans equally.

They're still freaking racist though, Xil. And even though Briala saved their asses and helped them greatly with her info, they still treated her like dirt which is irritating beyond belief to me.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, they follow the same religion that destroyed their culture. While there'd be reason to sympathize with those first city elves who were just unable to escape and were forced into human cities, their descendents are no more trustworthy than the human underclass, unless they display interest in working with the Dalish.

In that case, humans are completely justified in their treatment of the Dalish because they are no better than their ancestors who wreaked death and destruction on Orlais in an attempt to destroy their religion and culture.  

[Xilizhra]

I think that was a strategy of the story, and less an accurate representation of the Dalish. A huge moment of the plot is Felassan getting Briala to abandon any hope of working with the Dalish. We as readers are meant to sympathize with Briala, and so if the Dalish are presented as jerks, we are more willing as readers to follow along and believe in Briala. The true question of TME, to me, is why Felassan wanted to get control of the Eluvians away from the Dalish, who at least know something of the past, and into the hand of Briala who is at best naive about the past. 

Felassan's master is clearly malevolent; perhaps that's the exact reason that he wanted the Dalish to not get it.

 

 

Their still freaking racist though, Xil. And even though Briala saved their asses and helped them greatly with her info, they still treated her like dirt which is irritating beyond belief to me.

It's a cultural issue primarily. Again, Andrastianism has been a cardinal bane of the Dalish.

 

 

In that case, humans are completely justified in their treatment of the Dalish because they are no better than their ancestors who wreaked death and destruction on Orlais in an attempt to destroy their religion and culture.  

Er, no. The Dalish attacked Orlais solely to deal with enemies who'd proven hostile intent many, many times.

[Dirgegun]

Leliana is dubiously good after DAO. I would disagree with Justinia being good, and Cassandra is largely an unknown quantity.

 

I was mostly working with what I remember of Justinia from Asunder for that example. And I'm not sure if Leliana's done anything atrocious to be regarded as a dubious person, but again, I haven't finished reading TME.

 

Still, the point stands, doesn't it? There's saints and sinners everywhere and following a religion/being from a particular culture doesn't make you inherently bad.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Even if they really really wanted to, they wouldn't be allowed to enter the city/alienage.  Marethari was an exception.

 

 

 

These are prejudices some Dalish have.  City elves have certain prejudices against Dalish elves. 

 

The ones actually mistreating city elves are humans.

Merrill was able to enter. Arianni was able to enter. 

 

Iknow. I was saying there was no physical mistreating by the Dalish to City Elves. That we know of, at least. 

[Xilizhra]

I was mostly working with what I remember of Justinia from Asunder for that example. And I'm not sure if Leliana's done anything atrocious to be regarded as a dubious person, but again, I haven't finished reading TME.

 

Still, the point stands, doesn't it? There's saints and sinners everywhere and following a religion/being from a particular culture doesn't make you inherently bad.

Inherently, maybe not, but a lot of tenets of several religions and cultures are decidedly bad when they're dedicatedly followed.

[Hellion Rex]

, but again, I haven't finished reading TME.

Oh God, you need to rectify that lol

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Er, no. The Dalish attacked Orlais solely to deal with enemies who'd proven hostile intent many, many times.

Sure, so the Dalish say.

And regardless, the Dalish clans have proven hostile many, many times so by your logic the humans are in the right for trying to wipe them out. 

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish in TME really irritated me in this regard.

 

The Keeper and warleader violated the tenants adhered to by the Dalish, so I don't see how they are an example of most Dalish.

 

When did that "law" come up in Origins?

 

It was mentioned in the Dragon Age (tabletop RPG), Blood in Ferelden, pp. 106-107, as information that was derived from the developers. It's Ferelden king's law that killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime.

[jlb524]

Merrill was able to enter. Arianni was able to enter. 

 

They entered as individuals with the intention of living there and not as a group of Dalish intent on converting elves and taking them from the Alienage.

[Gervaise]

Sorry bit busy typing and not good at doing quotes.   I can't believe that people are looking at that travesty of a play in Masked Empire and thinking it hints at something that actually occurred between Andraste and Shartan.    It was a parody used by Gaspard to throw hints about Celene, which he didn't actually know to be true at the time but it was sufficient that she was effectively "getting in bed with the elves" by making so many concessions to them.   When he discovered it was literally true as well, he thought it was hilarious.    I'd pointed out that if Maferath had really thought anything was going on between them and that was the cause of his jealousy, he probably wouldn't have honoured the agreement over the homeland.    Also the play suggested he was angry at Andraste for not continuing with the crusade while dallying with Shartan, when it is a plain fact that he abandoned it once she was dead, thus suggesting that the real reason for his betrayal is that he wanted to stop it.

 

I'd also have much more faith in people stating that there was a strong oral tradition among the elves that passed down the lore, rather than it was put on scraps of paper.   That is in fact where I think all the stories come from.    This could also account for why the memory is that everyone was magical when the reality was probably that just the leaders were.      The fact is that humans may have enslaved them but humans also freed them.   The humans who enslaved them were mages, the humans who freed them (as far as we know) were not, although I know there is a theory regarding Andraste.  The elves would never have done it alone but took their chance when the opportunity was presented by Andraste's crusade.     So any credit for giving them that opportunity should go to the Maker, not the Creators.   The elves who fought for their freedom were not mages but it would seem predominately archers, essentially soldiers using anything they could lay their hands on.   Their great war leader was definitely not a mage - Andraste's gift to him was a longsword.  

 

That description of the journey and the life he had led before by an elf eye witness, is just what I would have thought.   He was no mage.   He was just an ordinary guy who wanted to get away from the terrible life in Tevinter.    He wept when he reached his destination.   It strikes me very much the same sort of reaction you might get today from any city elf but particularly one who had come from Tevinter.     He got there because he just wanted a home.   People didn't make it largely because they died on route, not because they were weak willed or not sufficiently elven.         I can't think that following the "old ways" would matter as much to that person as simply being able to live in peace.      And I doubt he would think that reaching his home was a "reward" from the Creators.  I doubt actually that he would think of any god being responsible at all.

[Jazzpha]

I think that was a strategy of the story, and less an accurate representation of the Dalish. A huge moment of the plot is Felassan getting Briala to abandon any hope of working with the Dalish. We as readers are meant to sympathize with Briala, and so if the Dalish are presented as jerks, we are more willing as readers to follow along and believe in Briala. The true question of TME, to me, is why Felassan wanted to get control of the Eluvians away from the Dalish, who at least know something of the past, and into the hand of Briala who is at best naive about the past. 

 

Felassan is also shown to look upon the past of the Elves with bitterness and regret, sorrow and disdain. The sense I got from his final scene with Briala was that he was old, old and tired and knew his time was up. Probably one of those "I've really lived long enough, and done enough. My time is up" moments. Which I can certainly respect.

 

Felassan was a hardcore progressive in that respect, routinely savaging the notions of romanticizing the Dalish past and routinely encouraging Briala to adopt her own strength of agency and to embrace her role as a neo-revolutionary.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They entered as individuals with the intention of living there and not as a group of Dalish intent on converting elves and taking them from the Alienage.

Well, the Dalish messengers would have to be sly on it. Going around screaming "Down with the shemlen" would be bad, but discretely talking about it wouldn't catch notice since elves talk about possibly going to find the Dalish all the time. 

[Hellion Rex]

Felassan is also shown to look upon the past of the Elves with bitterness and regret, sorrow and disdain. The sense I got from his final scene with Briala was that he was old, old and tired and knew his time was up. Probably one of those "I've really lived long enough, and done enough. My time is up" moments. Which I can certainly respect.

 

Felassan was a hardcore progressive in that respect, routinely savaging the notions of romanticizing the Dalish past and routinely encouraging Briala to adopt her own strength of agency and to embrace her role as a neo-revolutionary.

I think he was my favorite character in the novel.

[Dirgegun]

Inherently, maybe not, but a lot of tenets of several religions and cultures are decidedly bad when they're dedicatedly followed.

 

Well, it's possible to be dedicated to your faith and/or your culture/where you came from without being bad. Like being a patriot of your country doesn't mean you have to agree with what's been done in the past/what the government has done. And being dedicated to your faith doesn't mean you agree with some things that have been done in the name of your faith. 

 

Ah, but I might have misread what you meant? Sorry if I have.

[Reznore57]

I'm very happy to play Dalish.I like city elves , I've played one in DAO.

But I don't know playing a dude who spend most of his life in a forest , meeting people like Varric , Sera , Vivienne , Dorian etc...

Also someone who's being taugh to be proud of who he is all his life , suddenly is going to end up in a very hostile environments where people are going to look down on him.

I mean city elves are used to this.

My Dalish is going to go  crazy , seeing elves around him being mistreated , or even hearing people calling him names...

 

I don't know I feel I'm going to have a lot of fun with the culture shock.

[Xilizhra]

Sure, so the Dalish say.

And regardless, the Dalish clans have proven hostile many, many times so by your logic the humans are in the right for trying to wipe them out. 

No. The Dalish have only ever tried to defend themselves.

 

 

I'd also have much more faith in people stating that there was a strong oral tradition among the elves that passed down the lore, rather than it was put on scraps of paper.   That is in fact where I think all the stories come from.    This could also account for why the memory is that everyone was magical when the reality was probably that just the leaders were.      The fact is that humans may have enslaved them but humans also freed them.   The humans who enslaved them were mages, the humans who freed them (as far as we know) were not, although I know there is a theory regarding Andraste.  The elves would never have done it alone but took their chance when the opportunity was presented by Andraste's crusade.     So any credit for giving them that opportunity should go to the Maker, not the Creators.   The elves who fought for their freedom were not mages but it would seem predominately archers, essentially soldiers using anything they could lay their hands on.   Their great war leader was definitely not a mage - Andraste's gift to him was a longsword. 

Forgive me, but this makes no sense. There's no reason in hell that the elves shouldn't have thanked the Creators, given that the Creators were clearly still remembered. Why would it be wrong for them to not convert? And again, religious people think things like this all the time.

 

 

Well, it's possible to be dedicated to your faith and/or your culture/where you came from without being bad. Like being a patriot of your country doesn't mean you have to agree with what's been done in the past/what the government has done. And being dedicated to your faith doesn't mean you agree with some things that have been done in the name of your faith. 

 

Ah, but I might have misread what you meant? Sorry if I have.

What would you think about Rommel?

[Jazzpha]

I think he was my favorite character in the novel.

 

Mine too, without question. He was fantastic. I think my Inquisitor will wind up taking a lot of cues from him, personality-wise. Humor is a good way to stay sane in the face of the horrors of the world, after all.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No. The Dalish have only ever tried to defend themselves.

Nonsense. 

[jlb524]

Well, the Dalish messengers would have to be sly on it. Going around screaming "Down with the shemlen" would be bad, but discretely talking about it wouldn't catch notice since elves talk about possibly going to find the Dalish all the time. 

 

Well, no, they wouldn't do that.  It's still not going to be easy.

 

Even if Dalish could infiltrate and were super extra nice to the city elves, how many city elves would want to leave their homes and the world they are comfortable with?