545 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Fair point. There's more than one side to the Dalish. I wasn't saying the Dalish are always aggresive though. I was merely providing another point to bolster Sasha's own example to prove that the Dalish are not always reactionary, sometimes they are indeed aggressive.

 

No one ever claimed that the Dalish were all paragons of virtue, and it's already been addressed in this thread that it's acknowledged that there are good and bad among the Dalish; some of us simply pointed out that they aren't one-dimensional villains, which is precisely what some of you are trying to paint them as.

[Lady Nuggins]

The fact is that humans may have enslaved them but humans also freed them.   The humans who enslaved them were mages, the humans who freed them (as far as we know) were not, although I know there is a theory regarding Andraste.  The elves would never have done it alone but took their chance when the opportunity was presented by Andraste's crusade.     So any credit for giving them that opportunity should go to the Maker, not the Creators.   The elves who fought for their freedom were not mages but it would seem predominately archers, essentially soldiers using anything they could lay their hands on.   Their great war leader was definitely not a mage - Andraste's gift to him was a longsword.  

 

But the elves didn't see Andraste as a prophet of the Maker (and Andrasteism was not yet a thing when she was still alive).  They saw her as a secular military leader.

 

You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation. We joined her rebellion against the Imperium, and our heroes died beside her, unmourned, in Tevinter bonfires.

[Xilizhra]

I never claimed that Fereldens never act hostile and only attack in defense, did I? 

Then allow me to clarify: I was referring to the Dalish as the entire culture, not every individual within it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Then allow me to clarify: I was referring to the Dalish as the entire culture, not every individual within it.

In that case, no country in history has been hostile since the soldiers are only individuals, not the entire culture. 

[Xilizhra]

In that case, no country in history has been hostile since the soldiers are only individuals, not the entire culture. 

*sighs*

 

The leaders of the collective Dalish culture as accepted as legitimate by the Dalish populace have never ordered unprovoked aggressive action against Andrastian nations.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*sighs*

 

The leaders of the collective Dalish culture as accepted as legitimate by the Dalish populace have never ordered unprovoked aggressive action against Andrastian nations.

Attacking caravans constitutes attacks on civilians of that nation, thus attacking that nation. Was Germany not attacking Britain when their submarines sunk their cargo ships? 

[Xilizhra]

Attacking caravans constitutes attacks on civilians of that nation, thus attacking that nation. Was Germany not attacking Britain when their submarines sunk their cargo ships? 

For this, you'll need to prove that the Dalish as a whole approved of it and they weren't renegade actions. Which the second Genitivi codex entry seems to disprove.

[Lady Nuggins]

Can we all just agree that every group in Thedas does awful things sometimes and good things sometimes?  Why can't we ever just talk about how interesting a culture is without always turning it into a moral judgement?  Nobody has the high ground in this universe.

[Jazzpha]

Attacking caravans constitutes attacks on civilians of that nation, thus attacking that nation. Was Germany not attacking Britain when their submarines sunk their cargo ships? 

 

Not taking a side here, but I think the implication was separating "sanctioned government action" from "unsanctioned independent civilian/militia action".

 

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Jazzpha]

Can we all just agree that every group in Thedas does awful things sometimes and good things sometimes?  Why can't we ever just talk about how interesting a culture is without always turning it into a moral judgement?  Nobody has the high ground in this universe.

 

On the internet? Madness!

 

But seriously, I like this sentiment.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For this, you'll need to prove that the Dalish as a whole approved of it and they weren't renegade actions. Which the second Genitivi codex entry seems to disprove.

Some Dalish clans thrive on being bandits, so their Keeper approved it. 

[Xilizhra]

Some Dalish clans thrive on being bandits, so their Keeper approved it. 

Which is still not the Dalish as a whole, but renegade clans. Assuming they still have Keepers, which isn't a guarantee. Or that it's clans that are doing the attacking.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is no "Dalish as a whole". 

 

But whatever, the Dalish can do no wrong and are paragons of light in the world of Thedas. /sarcasm

[Xilizhra]

Whatever. Yes, the Dalish can do no wrong and are paragons of light in the world of Thedas. /sarcasm

They've certainly done less wrong than the Chantry; I hardly see any reason not to back them.

[Icy Magebane]

Can we all just agree that every group in Thedas does awful things sometimes and good things sometimes?  Why can't we ever just talk about how interesting a culture is without always turning it into a moral judgement?  Nobody has the high ground in this universe.

I'm not sure if that's even possible.  The Dalish culture as we know it only exists because of human aggression and religious intolerance.  It seems odd to exclude these factors from the conversation since they, in my mind at least, are intrinsic to the Dalish.  It would be like talking about the Circle without eventually winding up discussing the Chantry.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Can we all just agree that every group in Thedas does awful things sometimes and good things sometimes?  Why can't we ever just talk about how interesting a culture is without always turning it into a moral judgement?  Nobody has the high ground in this universe.

At this point, I really want the lore to confirm that "Yes, the Dales started it" just so this argument of the Dalish being morally higher than everyone else can end. 

[LobselVith8]

They've certainly done less wrong than the Chantry; I hardly see any reason not to back them.

 

I don't see the need for the vilification of the Dalish, either. It's getting a bit ridiculous at this point. No one in Thedas is perfect, and you can find good and bad in every group, city elves and Dalish alike.

 

With the return of racial options, I'm quite happy about the prospect of an elven Inquisitor, because I think the culture and religion of the People is interesting and nuanced, and I hope that the protagonist's cultural viewpoint isn't diluted in the narrative.

[Tevinter Rose]

Wait, seriously?

 

"There are no laws regulating personal behavior such as bearing arms, drinking, gambling and prostitution. Similarly, local prejudices and violence against non-human residents—notably alienage elves—often go unpunished. In part this is pragmatism, as Ferelden king's law states that killing a human in defense of an elf is a crime."

 

^{http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Ferelden}

[Gervaise]

Sorry, me again.   I don't deny that the homeland was won by the blood, sweat and tears of the elves and Andraste's army.    What I was pointing out was connected to the fact that in DAO the lorekeeper says that at the end of the Long March the elves who made it were rewarded with a homeland by the Creators.    I just object to credit being given any god, but particularly the Creators, whom I feel did very little to achieve it.

 

Scraps of paper are notoriously bad at enduring over any length of time.   Even papyrus tends to decay eventually.   So either they're saying they constantly kept transferring the lore from one bit of paper to another or that wasn't the likely medium used to keep the lore alive.    Here's another thought.   If the elves in the Imperium kept their traditions alive down all those years because it was important to them, why didn't the city elves do the same.   You can force people to worship the Maker outwardly but behind closed doors they could have kept the traditions going.  As it is the only thing they seem to have bothered with is the tree and possibly some of the old folk lore, as evidenced by Michel's mother.    You could say that is why the Dalish are justified in looking down on the city elves but I wonder just how enthusiastic the majority were about discovering and maintaining the "old ways".   Naturally when they came under attack they would fight for their homeland but if they had really kept things going all those years when they were slaves of the Imperium, why drop it in the Alienages.       To put it another way, were the Dalish just a sect within the whole or, as has been suggested in some codices, the ruling nobility whilst the general populace were never so devoted.     The nobility on the whole were the ones who got away, whilst the commoners, who never really cared about the Creators, were the ones who got rounded up, hence the Dalish derision for the city elves not just because they gave it up when they surrendered but in fact never really had it.

[Icy Magebane]

At this point, I really want the lore to confirm that "Yes, the Dales started it" just so this argument of the Dalish being morally higher than everyone else can end.

The humans of present day Thedas have no right to treat elves the way they do, regardless of who started what a couple of centuries ago.  The Dalish are simply trying to survive on a continent where they are unable to own land and are not permitted to join human society without first giving up their religion and surrendering their mages.  If a few bad ones take advantage of that to engage in morally reprehensible behavior, that does not taint the group as a whole nor make their goal any less worthwhile.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

With the return of racial options, I'm quite happy about the prospect of an elven Inquisitor, because I think the culture and religion of the People is interesting and nuanced, and I hope that the protagonist's cultural viewpoint isn't diluted in the narrative.

If it wasn't for Qunari being available, I would prefer the options not being available this game. 

 

Don't really want to be a Human Noble again. 

Meh of Dwarf being a Surface Dwarf.

And being Dalish only is still worst news of Inquisition. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The humans of present day Thedas have no right to treat elves the way they do, regardless of who started what a couple of centuries ago.  The Dalish are simply trying to survive on a continent where they are unable to own land and are not permitted to join human society without first giving up their religion and surrendering their mages.  If a few bad ones take advantage of that to engage in morally reprehensible behavior, that does not taint the group as a whole nor make their goal any less worthwhile.

I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying I'm sick and tired of people who go "The Dalish have the moral highground" when they don't know that any more than those who think the Dales started the whole thing and the Dalish have proven to be just as twisted as the other cultures. 

[Xilizhra]

At this point, I really want the lore to confirm that "Yes, the Dales started it" just so this argument of the Dalish being morally higher than everyone else can end. 

And what if the lore confirmed the opposite?

 

Scraps of paper are notoriously bad at enduring over any length of time.   Even papyrus tends to decay eventually.   So either they're saying they constantly kept transferring the lore from one bit of paper to another or that wasn't the likely medium used to keep the lore alive.    Here's another thought.   If the elves in the Imperium kept their traditions alive down all those years because it was important to them, why didn't the city elves do the same.   You can force people to worship the Maker outwardly but behind closed doors they could have kept the traditions going.  As it is the only thing they seem to have bothered with is the tree and possibly some of the old folk lore, as evidenced by Michel's mother.    You could say that is why the Dalish are justified in looking down on the city elves but I wonder just how enthusiastic the majority were about discovering and maintaining the "old ways".   Naturally when they came under attack they would fight for their homeland but if they had really kept things going all those years when they were slaves of the Imperium, why drop it in the Alienages.       To put it another way, were the Dalish just a sect within the whole or, as has been suggested in some codices, the ruling nobility whilst the general populace were never so devoted.     The nobility on the whole were the ones who got away, whilst the commoners, who never really cared about the Creators, were the ones who got rounded up, hence the Dalish derision for the city elves not just because they gave it up when they surrendered but in fact never really had it.

Tevinter didn't seem to expect the elves to convert to the worship of the Old Gods; given that they were said to have given the magisters blood magic, I wouldn't be surprised if slaves worshiping them too much was actually forbidden, either as reaching above their station or just because they didn't want the Old Gods to grant any favors to their lessers. The Chantry, on the other hand, was very interested in focused, active conversion.

[LobselVith8]

At this point, I really want the lore to confirm that "Yes, the Dales started it" just so this argument of the Dalish being morally higher than everyone else can end. 

 

People have pointed out there are two sides to the historical account, and there are a plethora of people in this community who hate the Dalish and have even tried to suppress the notion that there's another account, aside from the Chantry version (by ignoring what the elven Warden and the Dalish codex say on the matter). No one knows the truth on the matter, and that's continually acknowledged.

 

The other simple truth is that some of us actually like the Dalish, and don't view them with the same disdain that you seem to. They are complex, they have refused to capitulate their cultural and religious beliefs despite the hostility from the Andrastian nations, and they view magic as a gift of the Creators. We acknowledge that there's good and bad among the Dalish, but we enjoy them all the same.

[Lady Nuggins]

I'm not sure if that's even possible.  The Dalish culture as we know it only exists because of human aggression and religious intolerance.  It seems odd to exclude these factors from the conversation since they, in my mind at least, are intrinsic to the Dalish.  It would be like talking about the Circle without eventually winding up discussing the Chantry.

 

Yes, but I think we can discuss all those things in an academic sense without vilifying an entire culture/race or speaking in all these broad generalizations.  I see the same thing happen in qunari discussions--it always devolves to "well the qun is awful because ___."  I can find a group interesting without approving of everything they do, and I can sympathise with both sides of a conflict.