545 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying I'm sick and tired of people who go "The Dalish have the moral highground" when they don't know that any more than those who think the Dales started the whole thing and the Dalish have proven to be just as twisted as the other cultures. 

For what it's worth, I personally feel that the elves should have helped out during the Second Blight, but it is what it is.  All I'm saying is that the crimes committed against elves are so severe that it's difficult for me to judge elves who grow bitter and resentful.  In fact, calling them "crimes" isn't even accurate because in most of Thedas, killing elves for no reason is legal.  I am not trying to excuse immoral behavior of elves towards humans, but everyone has a breaking point.

[Reznore57]

If it wasn't for Qunari being available, I would prefer the options not being available this game. 

 

Don't really want to be a Human Noble again. 

Meh of Dwarf being a Surface Dwarf.

And being Dalish only is still worst news of Inquisition. 

 

I don't understand why playing Dalish is so terrible..I mean I can get being frustrated because you wanted to roleplay a city elf...since it's not exactly the same.

 

Could you..I don't know explain why you wanted to RP the city elf so much and why Dalish is such a disappointment?

[Kalamah]

I think it's an interesting reflection of the status quo when people accuse individuals of a marginalized group of bringing the whole group down.  Especially when one can easily list far more terrible humans who are ever so coincidentally not representatives of humans as a whole being terrible. It's almost like there's a strong bias and willfully blind side to the assertions that marginalized groups have to adhere to status quo standards in order to earn being treated with basic dignity and respect. And as if the Dalish must necessarily all follow some sort of moral code before they're seen as worthy enough to exist as equal to humans who again always seem to get free passes because they just so happen to be dominant... because they conquered and forcibly converted or killed everyone else who were weirdly not willing to just hand over their lands to the invaders. I mean, how terrible is that? Manifest Destiny blah blah.

[Gervaise]

You're missing my point.   Just because the Chantry are interested in active conversion doesn't mean you really have to convert.   You just do your duty, turn up and chant a few versus, if at all because there doesn't seem to be a set requirement for attendance, and then go home and do your real devotions.    You don't have to truly believe in the Maker to keep the Chantry happy, just look as though you do.    If your religion means that much to you, you will keep it going no matter what.   In fact considering the elves are segregated in alienages, away from humans who might snitch on them, it would actually be easier to maintain an underground faith.   Yet the city elves did not.    This suggests they were not particularly devoted to the Creators in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

You're missing my point.   Just because the Chantry are interested in active conversion doesn't mean you really have to convert.   You just do your duty, turn up and chant a few versus, if at all because there doesn't seem to be a set requirement for attendance, and then go home and do your real devotions.    You don't have to truly believe in the Maker to keep the Chantry happy, just look as though you do.    If your religion means that much to you, you will keep it going no matter what.   In fact considering the elves are segregated in alienages, away from humans who might snitch on them, it would actually be easier to maintain an underground faith.   Yet the city elves did not.    This suggests they were not particularly devoted to the Creators in the first place.

I don't think the Chantry would necessarily leave it at that. I wouldn't be at all surprised if templars were searching peoples' homes for evidence of Creator worship for quite a few years after that.

[LobselVith8]

Sorry, me again.   I don't deny that the homeland was won by the blood, sweat and tears of the elves and Andraste's army.    What I was pointing out was connected to the fact that in DAO the lorekeeper says that at the end of the Long March the elves who made it were rewarded with a homeland by the Creators.    I just object to credit being given any god, but particularly the Creators, whom I feel did very little to achieve it.

 

Some elves feel that the Creators smile on them, so I don't see it as surprising that the elves who fought campaigns against Tevinter would feel that their gods looked positively on their actions.

 

Scraps of paper are notoriously bad at enduring over any length of time.   Even papyrus tends to decay eventually.   So either they're saying they constantly kept transferring the lore from one bit of paper to another or that wasn't the likely medium used to keep the lore alive. 

 

That's what the developers said. Gaider even mentioned it when he was addressing how the Creators weren't the same as the Old Gods, and how the Old Gods wanted Tevinter to attack Arlathan.

 

Here's another thought.   If the elves in the Imperium kept their traditions alive down all those years because it was important to them, why didn't the city elves do the same.   You can force people to worship the Maker outwardly but behind closed doors they could have kept the traditions going.  As it is the only thing they seem to have bothered with is the tree and possibly some of the old folk lore, as evidenced by Michel's mother.

 

Perhaps in the same way the Qunari were able to successfully convert some people to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches? It's hard to say with any degree of certainty, I admit.

 

You could say that is why the Dalish are justified in looking down on the city elves but I wonder just how enthusiastic the majority were about discovering and maintaining the "old ways".   Naturally when they came under attack they would fight for their homeland but if they had really kept things going all those years when they were slaves of the Imperium, why drop it in the Alienages.       To put it another way, were the Dalish just a sect within the whole or, as has been suggested in some codices, the ruling nobility whilst the general populace were never so devoted.     The nobility on the whole were the ones who got away, whilst the commoners, who never really cared about the Creators, were the ones who got rounded up, hence the Dalish derision for the city elves not just because they gave it up when they surrendered but in fact never really had it.

 

Some Dalish are descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, in an oligarchy, but not all. Lanaya points out that some Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales, but she's an example that isn't always the case, and that when there are contenders, you compete for the role of leadership. And I strongly doubt that entire groups of men, women, and children who evaded capture from the Chantry forces were comprised solely of the nobility; that would seem illogical to me. Frankly, I'm not certain why you seem so intent on the idea that the elves didn't want to follow the Creators.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And what if the lore confirmed the opposite?

Then I'll still have Arlathan at least. And know that Bioware prefers the Dalish Elves over other elves. 

 

 

People have pointed out there are two sides to the historical account, and there are a plethora of people in this community who hate the Dalish and have even tried to suppress the notion that there's another account, aside from the Chantry version (by ignoring what the elven Warden and the Dalish codex say on the matter). No one knows the truth on the matter, and that's continually acknowledged.

 

The other simple truth is that some of us actually like the Dalish, and don't view them with the same disdain that you seem to. They are complex, they have refused to capitulate their cultural and religious beliefs despite the hostility from the Andrastian nations, and they view magic as a gift of the Creators. We acknowledge that there's good and bad among the Dalish, but we enjoy them all the same.

I don't view the Dalish with disdain, or at least no more than pretty much every other culture in Thedas. I know they have good and bad. It just seems like I always point out the bad because I'm discussing with people who see them as morally superior, like you and Xil. 

[Xilizhra]

Then I'll still have Arlathan at least. And know that Bioware prefers the Dalish Elves over other elves.

I admit, it'd have been better if Zevran or Fenris or Sera had more attachment to Alienage culture. Though they all sort of fall into the same group of "elves living in human society."

 

As for Arlathan, it still wasn't as bad as Tevinter. So it seems probable that there's no time that the Dalish haven't been morally superior to the dominant human culture...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't understand why playing Dalish is so terrible..I mean I can get being frustrated because you wanted to roleplay a city elf...since it's not exactly the same.

 

Could you..I don't know explain why you wanted to RP the city elf so much and why Dalish is such a disappointment?

Well, I relate with the City Elves more than the other factions, and they are easy to play as a result. And I don't like some of the things the Dalish represent, such as them being the "true elves" and their xenophobia. It's fine as a culture I suppose, but I don't like roleplaying as one who agrees with them. So in that sense, being a Dalish Elf is more constrictive in roleplaying. 

 

To use numbers, I had around 7-8 ideas for City Elf Inquisitors before the news broke. With Dalish being our only background for that race, I have 1 idea, maybe 2. 

[LobselVith8]

If it wasn't for Qunari being available, I would prefer the options not being available this game. 

 

Don't really want to be a Human Noble again. 

Meh of Dwarf being a Surface Dwarf.

And being Dalish only is still worst news of Inquisition. 

 

I don't think that would be fair. I'm not interested in the romantic options available for my male elven Inquisitor, but I'm still happy for the people who are glad about the companions and advisers who are available to them, and I wouldn't want romance to be prohibited for everyone simply because I didn't get an option that I liked.

[Icy Magebane]

You're missing my point.   Just because the Chantry are interested in active conversion doesn't mean you really have to convert.   You just do your duty, turn up and chant a few versus, if at all because there doesn't seem to be a set requirement for attendance, and then go home and do your real devotions.    You don't have to truly believe in the Maker to keep the Chantry happy, just look as though you do.    If your religion means that much to you, you will keep it going no matter what.   In fact considering the elves are segregated in alienages, away from humans who might snitch on them, it would actually be easier to maintain an underground faith.   Yet the city elves did not.    This suggests they were not particularly devoted to the Creators in the first place.

I don't think it works like that... unless the Circles got permanently abolished when I wasn't paying attention, I think that any group living under the dominion of the Chantry is going to have to surrender any mages without protest.  This is one of the core tenants of the Chantry, and is incompatible with the Dalish religion, which sees magic as a gift.  The two cannot coexist if one demands the unconditional surrender of the other.

[Ryzaki]

Well, I relate with the City Elves more than the other factions, and they are easy to play as a result. And I don't like some of the things the Dalish represent, such as them being the "true elves" and their xenophobia. It's fine as a culture I suppose, but I don't like roleplaying as one who agrees with them. So in that sense, being a Dalish Elf is more constrictive in roleplaying. 

 

To use numbers, I had around 7-8 ideas for City Elf Inquisitors before the news broke. With Dalish being our only background for that race, I have 1 idea, maybe 2. 

 

Least you have 1 idea though. Dalish elves are one of my nope races right after Quarians.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think that would be fair. I'm not interested in the romantic options available for my male elven Inquisitor, but I'm still happy for the people who are glad about the companions and advisers who are available to them, and I wouldn't want romance to be prohibited for everyone simply because I didn't get an option that I liked.

Of course it isn't fair, but then neither is what I got. I'm not saying Bioware should do it, but like how you prefer that you had better romance options, I prefer I had better race background options. 

 

 

Least you have 1 idea though. Dalish elves are one of my nope races right after Quarians.

Well, the 1 is a Dalish who hates being Dalish, so...

[Icy Magebane]

To use numbers, I had around 7-8 ideas for City Elf Inquisitors before the news broke. With Dalish being our only background for that race, I have 1 idea, maybe 2. 

Yeah, in my case I wanted to be either a Tevinter or an Orlesian human...  "Free Marcher" just doesn't do anything for me...

[Xilizhra]

Of course it isn't fair, but then neither is what I got. I'm not saying Bioware should do it, but like how you prefer that you had better romance options, I prefer I had better race background options.

There was no alternative. The city elves wouldn't have anyone in the right position for this. The only way city elves have ever achieved positions of importance is through the Circle of Magi.

 

 

Well, the 1 is a Dalish who hates being Dalish, so...

Which is grossly illogical. If you hated being Dalish, you could have left.

[Ryzaki]

 

Well, the 1 is a Dalish who hates being Dalish, so...

 

True I can't play that without thinking they'd run off to the city years ago though.

 

At least Solas isn't a dalish elf. I won't have to hear any whining about the people this game. Hopefully.

[LobselVith8]

Then I'll still have Arlathan at least. And know that Bioware prefers the Dalish Elves over other elves. 

 

That's news to me, considering how their viewpoint is continually marginalized. Even the author of "The Masked Empire" admitted that he didn't provide a Dalish point of view or use a Dalish vernacular for the clan in the story (and that's not even touching on how they were one-dimensional caricatures).

 

I don't view the Dalish with disdain, or at least no more than pretty much every other culture in Thedas. I know they have good and bad. It just seems like I always point out the bad because I'm discussing with people who see them as morally superior, like you and Xil. 

 

I like the Dalish, but I take a stand against people who act as though all the Dalish are awful people, because that simply isn't true. It bothers me because no one talks like that when they discuss playing as a human protagonist, despite the plethora of Andrastian humans who view the elves as "less than people" and look down on non-Andrastians as heathens, but they constantly paint the nomadic elves in vile tones and speak as though all the Dalish are the same.

[Kalamah]

Then I'll still have Arlathan at least. And know that Bioware prefers the Dalish Elves over other elves. 

 

 

I don't view the Dalish with disdain, or at least no more than pretty much every other culture in Thedas. I know they have good and bad. It just seems like I always point out the bad because I'm discussing with people who see them as morally superior, like you and Xil. 

The only one who seems to think this is about the Dalish being "morally superior" is... you. No matter how many times anyone refutes your assertions, you seem stuck on the idea that it's about some sort of superiority thing. As if the Dalish haven't earned the right to exist and preserve their culture for itself, but that their motives are out of some sort of "moral superiority" which makes it bad, or something. Another thing is the comparisons you make, wherein because of X, Y, and Z individuals and their actions, the Dalish as a whole are reflected badly. Yet Loghain, Howe, and a huge long list of terrible humans are somehow not reflecting the beliefs of humans as a whole. It's a very transparent double standard.

 

Even if we get into percentages, like how humans outnumber Dalish, that still proves nothing beyond the fact the humans are responsible for how few Dalish remain, and all the roadblocks human culture has put into place to ensure the Dalish are destabilized and unable to unite... which is then used as proof that they deserve to continue to be marginalized, somehow, because they can't yank their bootstraps hard enough to overcome centuries of marginalization. The logic is circular and flawed.

[Lady Nuggins]

I admit, it'd have been better if Zevran or Fenris or Sera had more attachment to Alienage culture. Though they all sort of fall into the same group of "elves living in human society."

 

I agree, Alienage culture is woefully unexplored.  I wish they had utilized the Kirkwall alienage better, with Merrill living there.  I wanted to know more about how their culture is different from both the humans and the Dalish. 

[Kalamah]

For what it's worth, I enjoyed both the city elf and Dalish origins. I can also see why there's friction between them, and the nuances of human occupation and its effects, one of which is utilizing the divide and conquer strategy with pitting the city elves against the Dalish. I can also see why this is a divisive thing among fans, as the games and lore don't really emphasize which side is "right" and leave it up to players to decide if there even is a right or wrong.

 

That said, I don't think it's a coincidence that the status quo in Thedas reflects the status quo IRL in many ways, including the divisiveness it causes when people conveniently overlook things that don't support their perspectives and assert that things are black and white. Stuff like this isn't simple, and when a colonialist narrative is represented even in a fictional world, things get tense because it evokes strong feelings one way or another.

[Icy Magebane]

The only one who seems to think this is about the Dalish being "morally superior" is... you. No matter how many times anyone refutes your assertions, you seem stuck on the idea that it's about some sort of superiority thing. As if the Dalish haven't earned the right to exist and preserve their culture for itself, but that their motives are out of some sort of "moral superiority" which makes it bad, or something. Another thing is the comparisons you make, wherein because of X, Y, and Z individuals and their actions, the Dalish as a whole are reflected badly. Yet Loghain, Howe, and a huge long list of terrible humans are somehow not reflecting the beliefs of humans as a whole. It's a very transparent double standard.

 

Even if we get into percentages, like how humans outnumber Dalish, that still proves nothing beyond the fact the humans are responsible for how few Dalish remain, and all the roadblocks human culture has put into place to ensure the Dalish are destabilized and unable to unite... which is then used as proof that they deserve to continue to be marginalized, somehow, because they can't yank their bootstraps hard enough to overcome centuries of marginalization. The logic is circular and flawed.

What a time to run out of likes...

 

Anyway, excellent post.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Somehow the struggle for survival that the Dalish face every day seems to keep getting overlooked.  They aren't living out in the woods because they prefer it...  they do so out of necessity.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There was no alternative. The city elves wouldn't have anyone in the right position for this. The only way city elves have ever achieved positions of importance is through the Circle of Magi.

 

 

Which is grossly illogical. If you hated being Dalish, you could have left.

The Dalish won't have anyone in the right position either. 

 

And hey, if I am able to I am. But I'm stuck being a good little Dalish who never left the clan. 

 

 

That's news to me, considering how their viewpoint is continually marginalized. Even the author of "The Masked Empire" admitted that he didn't provide a Dalish point of view or use a Dalish vernacular for the clan in the story (and that's not even touching on how they were one-dimensional caricatures).

 

 

I like the Dalish, but I take a stand against people who act as though all the Dalish are awful people, because that simply isn't true. It bothers me because no one talks like that when they discuss playing as a human protagonist, despite the plethora of Andrastian humans who view the elves as "less than people" and look down on non-Andrastians as heathens, but they constantly paint the nomadic elves in vile tones and speak as though all the Dalish are the same.

And how marginalized is the City Elf viewpoint? We have yet to get one as a companion, since Zevran was a Crow since he was 7 so didn't really grow up in it, and Sera will most likely be similar with the Friends of Red Jenny than regular City Elf.

 

And again, I don't see the Dalish as awful people. They have some terrible policies that sour my perception of them, but so does every other group.

 

 

The only one who seems to think this is about the Dalish being "morally superior" is... you. No matter how many times anyone refutes your assertions, you seem stuck on the idea that it's about some sort of superiority thing. As if the Dalish haven't earned the right to exist and preserve their culture for itself, but that their motives are out of some sort of "moral superiority" which makes it bad, or something. Another thing is the comparisons you make, wherein because of X, Y, and Z individuals and their actions, the Dalish as a whole are reflected badly. Yet Loghain, Howe, and a huge long list of terrible humans are somehow not reflecting the beliefs of humans as a whole. It's a very transparent double standard.

 

Even if we get into percentages, like how humans outnumber Dalish, that still proves nothing beyond the fact the humans are responsible for how few Dalish remain, and all the roadblocks human culture has put into place to ensure the Dalish are destabilized and unable to unite... which is then used as proof that they deserve to continue to be marginalized, somehow, because they can't yank their bootstraps hard enough to overcome centuries of marginalization. The logic is circular and flawed.

The "moral superiority" isn't referring to the Dalish themselves but is from posters who think that the Dalish were nothing but innocent victims. Victims, yes. Innocent, very doubtful. 

 

Who says I don't judge humans with the same standards? I know I didn't.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish won't have anyone in the right position either.

The game disagrees, for whatever reason. Probably because a different society will have something more to say than the underclass of mainstream society.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The game disagrees, for whatever reason. Probably because a different society will have something more to say than the underclass of mainstream society.

Exactly, the Dalish was chosen for simply "reasons". I have yet to hear a good enough one for being exclusively Dalish. 

[Kalamah]

What a time to run out of likes...

 

Anyway, excellent post.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Somehow the struggle for survival that the Dalish face every day seems to keep getting overlooked.  They aren't living out in the woods because they prefer it...  they do so out of necessity.

Yeah. Also? The friction between the Dalish and city elves is actually very realistic, and while it makes my eye twitch when I see it in the games because I want to go into lecture mode about why neither has any reason to trust the other, I understand why it's a thing. The Dalish attitude toward city elves is due to viewing them as collaborators, and while it's unfair of them to assume every city elf is a potential traitor by default, it's also rather reasonable because city elves have been raised to not even trust each other and to get ahead by bringing each other down.

 

The city elves in contrast have been raised on human lies about the Dalish, as well as feeling the more subtle effects of direct human oppression that deprive them of their own culture and identity. Thus, they aren't wrong to view the Dalish with bitterness because from their perspective the Dalish are free in ways they can hardly imagine, and they resent that the Dalish don't trust them because they have no control over how the humans treat them. It's a complex tangle of being unable to relate to each other as elves because of their very different experiences and perspectives.