Aller au contenu

Photo

So... Even if Sebastian marries Hawke and is Rival Path...


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
35 réponses à ce sujet

#26
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
  • Members
  • 2 095 messages

It's absurd to consider Sebastian leaving Hawke if they spare Anders as "betrayal." Anders basically just blew up everything Sebastian cared for and people seriously expect Sebastian to work with him after that? Imagine someone just blew up your house with all your family inside and then your friend defends this person and says for you to work with them. Would you? Considering what happened I think Sebastian leaving rather than trying to kill Anders shows his respect for Hawke.

If ever there was a case for a character turning around and attacking you on the spot, I would have thought this was it. Him simply having a sulk and saying, "I'm going to go get an army and come back make you all pay!" when nothing comes of it in game is pretty weak; it reduces all of his outrage to completely hollow rhetoric. When does his big rant (which is justified for the most part), I was like "Cool, bro. I got Varric anyway. See ya."

Perhaps if he turned up later and actually fought against you during The Last Straw (like Fenris does under similar circumstances), it would make his turning on you more interesting. They could have made it even more interesting by having him attack Anders specifically if he is in your party and make it that if he successfully kills him, it triggers a death cutscene in which Anders dies for good, thus making Hawke's decision to choose Anders over Sebastian have visible in game consequences. The same could happen for Sebastian if you kill him. The whole problem with the Sebastian ending is that he leaves and... nothing happens.
  • sylvanaerie aime ceci

#27
HK-90210

HK-90210
  • Members
  • 1 700 messages

Point is that he still got laid a great deal and doesn't look at Hawke at all if she isn't a virgin. He doesn't even give Hawke an option to be "Born Again" like he was per say. That in turn makes him a hypocrite as he got a lot of nookie but that's "okay" to him because he "repented" but he doesn't extend the same to Hawke. She loses her virginity and she's suddenly tainted to him no matter what she does even if she lost her virginity before meeting Sebastian.

 

First, it's not that Hawke is or isn't a virgin. That isn't the problem. Sebastian makes not mention AT ALL about Hawke's romantic life before she met him. He has his past. She has hers. What Sebastian cares about is Hawke's present. And if her present consists of another current relationship, then he won't get involved. To me, this is sensible and practical. He's not going to step on any toes, and he's not going to want to be with a woman who is currently involved with anyone. That is a relationship tactic that many today employs because is avoids drama.

 

Sebastian doesn't seem to respect Hawke, he knows that she wants to have sex and maybe have children in the future but he refuses to entertain the thought of a marriage between them being anything more than Hawke remaining a virgin and never having sex.

 

Uh....not if it's a rivalmance. All he says is that an alliance between the Vicountess of Kirkwall and the Prince of Starkhaven qould be the strongest the Free Marches has ever seen, and that he will give Hawke 'no less than a prince'. This is not a man who is insisting on a chaste marriage. This is a man saying that they are going to be forging not just a personal relationship, but a political alliance. There is no way that a marriage between such important people would have an unconsummated marriage, and Sebastian knows that.

 

The flirting is funny but the romance is a disaster as it's Hawke giving everything to Sebastian, and living to his standards, while he gives nothing up to Hawke, as he already chose to be chaste, and he doesn't live to her standards nor does he care for what she wants but expects her to do what he wants.

 

Sebastian simply doesn't understand that Marriage is a Two-Way Street, not "My Way or Get Out".

 

Hawke and Sebastian are never married in DA II. This is not a two-way street. This is an establishment of one.

 

Hawke is the one who initiates. She is the one who decides to flirt with Sebastian. He was fine on his own, never giving any indication that he thought of Hawke in a romantic fashion. So he is under no obligation to change for her. Neither is she, but you can hardly say that the ball is in Sebastian's court. He lets her know the kind of relationship he is comfortable with. If that's not what she wants, then they can part ways, no harm, no foul.

 

The order of Seb's romance goes like this:

1. The two meet, go on some adventures, do eachother some favors. The are friends or rivals depending on the Hawke involved.

2. Hawke lets Sebastian know she is interested by flirting.

3a. If Hawke is already involved with Isabela, Anders, Fenris or any of the employees of the Blooming Rose, he gives her a firm 'no'. He is under no obligation to say yes just because he has a racy past. Just because he's slept around in his youth doesn't mean he can't hold a higher standard for relationships now. He never judges Hawke for being in another relationship, he simply says that that's not what he, personally, is interested in.

3b. If, on the other hand, Hawke is not involved with anyone else, Sebastian responds about as well as could be expected from a deeply religious man. He prays and seeks guidance, unsure of how he should proceed. He's obviously attracted to her physically, and she has shown herself to be a virtuous woman for as long as he has known her.

4 Hawke and Sebastian have more adventures, and Sebastian asks for guidance from Hawke, who he trusts as a friend or as a respected rival.

5a. If Hawke has supported Sebastian's Chantry career leanings, then he offers her a chaste marriage before the Maker, the most he can offer her if he is to remain in the Chantry. Hawke can say yes or no to this, and that's the situation. If Hawke wants sex and kids, a friendmanced Sebastian is not the man who will give that to her. Period.

5b. If Hawke has encouraged Sebastian to pursue his birthright and rule Starkhaven, he tells her that once he has his throne, he will offer her his hand. He values her as both a woman and a powerful political ally. So he treats her as such. In this case, it shows how Sebastian holds himself to a high standard as well. No matter how willing Hawke may be, he will not commit her to him when he is still standing on shaky ground. He treats Hawke with the respect he knows she deserves.

6. If Hawke decides to spare Anders, the man who killed Sebastian's spiritual mentor, as well as countless other friends of his, Sebastian leaves regardless of their previous relationship. He will not work alongside a man who has committed such an atrocity, nor will he accept Hawke letting him off the hook.

7. If Hawke kills Anders, Sebastian's relationship with Hawke ends with uncertainty, like the rest of the game. He is not mentioned in the epilogue because it's clear he has somewhere to go after Kirkwall. He has a city to reclaim.

 

You can argue how well Sebastian's character was written, ways in which his character might have been improved. But how and why any of this makes Sebastian a hypocrite is beyond me. He's indecisive, impulsive at times and waffling at others. Certainly a flawed character. But he always conducts himself with integrity.


  • Akrabra, Realmzmaster, Krypplingz et 3 autres aiment ceci

#28
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

If ever there was a case for a character turning around and attacking you on the spot, I would have thought this was it. Him simply having a sulk and saying, "I'm going to go get an army and come back make you all pay!" when nothing comes of it in game is pretty weak; it reduces all of his outrage to completely hollow rhetoric. When does his big rant (which is justified for the most part), I was like "Cool, bro. I got Varric anyway. See ya."

Perhaps if he turned up later and actually fought against you during The Last Straw (like Fenris does under similar circumstances), it would make his turning on you more interesting. They could have made it even more interesting by having him attack Anders specifically if he is in your party and make it that if he successfully kills him, it triggers a death cutscene in which Anders dies for good, thus making Hawke's decision to choose Anders over Sebastian have visible in game consequences. The same could happen for Sebastian if you kill him. The whole problem with the Sebastian ending is that he leaves and... nothing happens.

What's your point? We're talking about "betrayal" here. Maybe him attacking Anders regardless would make things more "interesting," but he doesn't go through Hawke to do that. "Nothing happens" after Sebastian leaves because the game ends. Maybe in Inquisition we'll learn if Sebastian made an empty threat in anger/grief but I wouldn't count on finding out.



#29
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
  • Members
  • 2 095 messages

What's your point? We're talking about "betrayal" here. Maybe him attacking Anders regardless would make things more "interesting," but he doesn't go through Hawke to do that. "Nothing happens" after Sebastian leaves because the game ends. Maybe in Inquisition we'll learn if Sebastian made an empty threat in anger/grief but I wouldn't count on finding out.


That the whole Sebastian vs. Anders decision situation ends fairly insipidly and fails to really register much effect on the player and that there are ways they could have made that bit of the story play out more impactfully. The scenario with Fenris, where he confronts you and forces you to deal with the consequences of your choices by killing him is much more immediate and impactfully than Sebastian just shaking his fist and going, "Just you wait! I'll get you!" and wandering off in a huff. The whole thing is indicative of the general weakness of the integration of Sebastian into the rest of the The Final Straw (probably due to him being a DLC).
  • sylvanaerie aime ceci

#30
congokong

congokong
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages

That the whole Sebastian vs. Anders decision situation ends fairly insipidly and fails to really register much effect on the player and that there are ways they could have made that bit of the story play out more impactfully. The scenario with Fenris, where he confronts you and forces you to deal with the consequences of your choices by killing him is much more immediate and impactfully than Sebastian just shaking his fist and going, "Just you wait! I'll get you!" and wandering off in a huff. The whole thing is indicative of the general weakness of the integration of Sebastian into the rest of the The Final Straw (probably due to him being a DLC).

Another perspective would favor Bioware for doing something different with Sebastian's character by having him leave with his fate unknown instead of him fighting Hawke the same way potentially Fenris, Merrill, and Anders do.



#31
Ellyria

Ellyria
  • Members
  • 905 messages

Another perspective would favor Bioware for doing something different with Sebastian's character by having him leave with his fate unknown instead of him fighting Hawke the same way potentially Fenris, Merrill, and Anders do.

 

A looooooong time ago when they were still making the Exalted March expansion, Jennifer Hepler (Seb's writer) said that his story wasn't over. We were probably going to end up in Starkhaven to end the succession war which would be a good reason for Sebastian not being able to be killed.



#32
Darkly Tranquil

Darkly Tranquil
  • Members
  • 2 095 messages

A looooooong time ago when they were still making the Exalted March expansion, Jennifer Hepler (Seb's writer) said that his story wasn't over. We were probably going to end up in Starkhaven to end the succession war which would be a good reason for Sebastian not being able to be killed.


That makes his otherwise inconclusive ending in DA2 make a lot more sense. Perhaps there will be some mention of his fate in DAI. It would be nice for there to be some resolutions what Sebastian ultimately did.
  • randomcheeses aime ceci

#33
TheChubbyDragon

TheChubbyDragon
  • Members
  • 17 messages

If ever there was a case for a character turning around and attacking you on the spot, I would have thought this was it. Him simply having a sulk and saying, "I'm going to go get an army and come back make you all pay!" when nothing comes of it in game is pretty weak; it reduces all of his outrage to completely hollow rhetoric. When does his big rant (which is justified for the most part), I was like "Cool, bro. I got Varric anyway. See ya."

Perhaps if he turned up later and actually fought against you during The Last Straw (like Fenris does under similar circumstances), it would make his turning on you more interesting. They could have made it even more interesting by having him attack Anders specifically if he is in your party and make it that if he successfully kills him, it triggers a death cutscene in which Anders dies for good, thus making Hawke's decision to choose Anders over Sebastian have visible in game consequences. The same could happen for Sebastian if you kill him. The whole problem with the Sebastian ending is that he leaves and... nothing happens.

 

 

Play inquisition and see what Sebastian does... It was no empty threat... Just saying



#34
Riven326

Riven326
  • Members
  • 1 284 messages

He still insists on having a Chaste Marriage even know he knows that Hawke wants to take it to the next level. Wouldn't that case even more issues for Rival Path with Sebastian taking back his Holdings and reigning as King/Prince of it? An Heir is to be expected after all.

 

Or is Sebastian waiting til he has retaken his holdings before having relations with Hawke?

I imagine it's because he has strong beliefs and expects Hawke to understand.



#35
Cyrus Amell

Cyrus Amell
  • Members
  • 340 messages

The real reason for why there is no "romance" scene with Sebastian is, of course, that would have cost extra time and money for a dlc character who does not even appear until act 2.

 

Although I imagine the marital sex with a rivaled Sebastian would be worth the wait for a Fem-Hawke. Still, after waiting so long you might want to nip on down to Orlais and ask Morrigan if she has any fertility magic left over from her Dark Ritual with the Warden. And yes, fertility magic does exist in Dragon Age (someone should tell Queen Anora). Likely though, it's a benign form of blood magic. Which Sebastian does not like...

 

Where was I? Oh yes....

 

"Wohoo - Marital Sex!" - Homer Simpson



#36
AbsolutGrndZer0

AbsolutGrndZer0
  • Members
  • 1 578 messages

Okay, but what does chaste mean?  Is BIOWARE conflating chaste and celibate, or are we? The two words do NOT mean the same thing, they are related.  Not everyone who is chase is celibate, but one can assume the celibate are chaste.

 

From http://www.boundless...ithin-marriage:What is chastity? My dad used to tell us kids that the master bedroom was Mom's and his "holy of holies." We didn't fully understand at the time what he meant, but we knew enough to know it was special. Off limits to us. Looking back, I like the way they kept a space reserved just for them. It was private. And on occasions when I'd need to be in there, I always felt a little like a trespasser.

Living chaste within marriage means not doing anything to violate that sacred space — whether with another person (adultery), with your mind (pornography/fantasy), or even with one another. It's all about honor.

Chastity sounds like an old fashioned virtue. I suspect most of us, upon hearing the phrase, "she's a chaste young woman," might define it as "she's not having sex." But chastity goes beyond abstinence. Far beyond. That's why we can say we believe it's a welcome — even essential — virtue in strong marriages.

The 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary defines chastity in marriage as being "true to the marriage bed," and in language as "pure; genuine; uncorrupt; free from barbarous words and phrases, and from quaint, affected, extravagant expressions."


  • springacres aime ceci