238 réponses à ce sujet

[King Dragonlord]

The point is, if the only thing that is different about this timeline is the Warden dying during the Joining, Then Alistair's actions in the Darkspawn Chronicles reveal what the Alistair of our timeline is capable of when given the chance. And he's capable of a lot, plenty to show his kingly virtue. My estimation of Alistair has gone up now that this thread has led me to review what he did in that DLC. I'm even more confident that he is the better choice for the throne. 

[Icy Magebane]

The point is, if the only thing that is different about this timeline is the Warden dying during the Joining, Then Alistair's actions in the Darkspawn Chronicles reveal what the Alistair of our timeline is capable of when given the chance. And he's capable of a lot, plenty to show his kingly virtue. My estimation of Alistair has gone up now that this thread has led me to review what he did in that DLC. I'm even more confident that he is the better choice for the throne. 

You're free to base your opinion on that, but the fact is that he didn't show that much independence during DA:O, thus my initial points stand.

[Maria Caliban]

Except Darkspawn Chronicles isn't reflective of any sort of canon, it's a fun romp where you get to kill your companions.

I mean, Harren isn't a desire demon, but he turns into one in DSC.

[CrazyGobstopper]

The fact that Logain could take over as Regent when there was a sitting queen and then Alistair could come in and claim his place as king when he is the illegitimate son and she is, again, the sitting queen, the fact that there even is a landsmeet at all and that it could be a threat to her rule proof that she is not strong. Without that strength, her lack of character and hunger for power is doubly unjustifiable.

Hell, Anora shouldn't have even been "the sitting queen" when Loghain declared himself to be her regent. After Cailan died, Anora should legally have been a Queen Dowager. She and Loghain attempted to use her personal popularity and his command of the armies to turn her into a Queen Regnant by force - i.e., a coup and usurpation of the Fereldan throne. She had no legitimate claim to the throne, only a claim through might.

 

 

...or am I remembering incorrectly and she always gets imprisoned if not queen?

I believe the Alistair will always imprison Anora, "just in case" something happens to him. In so doing, however, he would risk lending some credence to her having a legitimate claim to the throne, and thus undermining his own claim.

 

 

In DA2 if you put Alistair on the throne, he shows up in Act 3 which is several years after the end of Origins. He's still king, there is no mention of any threat to his rule (something Meredith would have likely mentioned). Apparently its taking those politicians a while longer than Anora predicted to sniff that weakness he supposedly has. 

Most of the Fereldan nobles were probably satisfied that a Theirin was still on the throne, even if he was a bastard.

[Master Warder Z_]

Alistair is a weak,indecisive, hand puppet playing idiot.

 

Anora is slightly more tolerable as a Leader due to the fact she outgrew her infancy at the appropriate age.

[steelfire_dragon]

I want to kill Anora. She desired the throne and lusted for power.

 

clearly someone who should not be ruler.....

 

 

oh and I think she is ugly and I dont like her......

[Maria Caliban]

Not subtle with the baiting, are you?

[steelfire_dragon]

ummm there was something else....

 

King MErik was still alive doing some errand for Flemeth right???

 

well regardless this still would have Anora up on treason for usurping the throne ....

 

 

btw I ha ve not read that book so.....

[Green]

I believe the Alistair will always imprison Anora, "just in case" something happens to him. In so doing, however, he would risk lending some credence to her having a legitimate claim to the throne, and thus undermining his own claim.

This makes me wonder then if she didn't actually get out at some point and snatch up her dad's Teyrn. I suppose it would depend on whether or not Alistair was hardened, but if Anora is a politically savvy as canon would lead us to believe she could easily have been spending the last ten years building a support base there rather than try anything right after getting out of jail.
 

Most of the Fereldan nobles were probably satisfied that a Theirin was still on the throne, even if he was a bastard.

...aaand this is why in my 'canon' run I end up putting Anora on the throne anyway. Eamon seriously gives the impression he nor any of the other nobles will care how well Alistair can rule so long as he's of the right bloodline. That kind of governmental stagnation can be incredibly damaging no matter who we're talking about here.

[steelfire_dragon]

Not subtle with the baiting, are you?

not at all.

 

that was my contribution of what I think of her.

 

take it as baiting if you wish, but it was not intended as such.  

[Xilizhra]

Not subtle with the baiting, are you?

Similar enough, I think, to

 

Alistair is a weak,indecisive, hand puppet playing idiot.

 

Anora is slightly more tolerable as a Leader due to the fact she outgrew her infancy at the appropriate age.

[Master Warder Z_]

Similar enough, I think, to

 

Everything i said is true, save the Hand Puppet.

 

That requires a DLC and actually gifting him the stupid thing, but if he is given it, he will actually play with it.

 

My point resolves it self.

[King Dragonlord]

Everything i said is true, save the Hand Puppet.

 

That requires a DLC and actually gifting him the stupid thing, but if he is given it, he will actually play with it.

 

My point resolves it self.

Thats makes him more mature not less. That means he's past that adolescent phase of thinking kids stuff is stupid. He's onto the adult phase where you learn that some childish pleasures in moderation are good for one's sanity. And considering the situation he's with the Darkspawn, its a fine way to unwind. 

[Milan92]

Everything i said is true, save the Hand Puppet.

 

That requires a DLC and actually gifting him the stupid thing, but if he is given it, he will actually play with it.

 

My point resolves it self.

 

"He sits alone on a giant throne

Pretendin' he's the king

A little tyke who's rather like

A puppet on a string

And he throws an angry tantrum

If he cannot have his way

And then he calls for Mum

While he's suckin' his thumb

You see, he doesn't want to play

 

Too late to be known as Al the First

He's sure to be known as Al the worst

A pox on that phony king of Ferelden!"

[CrazyGobstopper]

King MErik was still alive doing some errand for Flemeth right???

well regardless this still would have Anora up on treason for usurping the throne ....

I wouldn't cite this in any argument about Anora usurping the throne. Maric was, after all, declared dead and no one knew any different - Loghain even spent two years looking for him before giving up all hope. The line of succession was followed as Cailan assumed the throne.

 

 

This makes me wonder then if she didn't actually get out at some point and snatch up her dad's Teyrn. I suppose it would depend on whether or not Alistair was hardened, but if Anora is a politically savvy as canon would lead us to believe she could easily have been spending the last ten years building a support base there rather than try anything right after getting out of jail.

That certainly seems like a distinct possibility, and would behoove Alistair to try to find a magical solution to the issue of Grey Wardens having difficulty conceiving children and/or awarding the teyrnir of Gwaren to a family other than Mac Tir. That is, assuming he would care about shoring up his position and the continuity of the Theirin line.

 

 

...aaand this is why in my 'canon' run I end up putting Anora on the throne anyway. Eamon seriously gives the impression he nor any of the other nobles will care how well Alistair can rule so long as he's of the right bloodline. That kind of governmental stagnation can be incredibly damaging no matter who we're talking about here.

Most of my "canon" playthroughs have ended with Alistair and Anora ruling jointly, so that I can indeed have my cake and eat it too.

 

Anora is an ambitious woman that has lusted after power her entire life, seems to be more than willing to look away when her father is committing crimes against Fereldan and its people, and is more than willing to double-cross a Warden that attempts to rescue her from captivity at the hands of her own father. But she has proven herself to be a capable and effective ruler during her marriage to Cailan and the people of Fereldan seem to adore her.

 

Alistair has never desired power and has to be cajoled into pushing a claim for the throne, which I can respect - he doesn't feel like he's worthy of being a ruler, and such humility would serve him well in the role. Furthermore, he has lived in several aspects of Fereldan society - in a noble estate, in a Chantry orphanage, been trained as a templar, and been trained as a Grey Warden. He has traveled the nation and made connections with numerous people, including Dalish elves, city elves, and dwarves. He is a proven war hero due to his actions during the Fifth Blight, and is generally a good and decent person who strives for justice.

 

Together, those two can make an excellent team, complementing one another's strengths and weaknesses.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I'll be honest, I can't leave Anora alone on the throne, I believe there needs to be someone who can humble, let that be Alistair or the Warden. She's definitely great at ruling but she really is quite arrogant.

[King Dragonlord]

Only those who don't believe themselves to be worthy of rule are correct. Anyone who thinks they are is wrong and they are by that one virtue less worthy than all of those who think that they aren't.

 

We are all created equal but those who think they are worthy of power are less equal than the rest of us. 

[King Dragonlord]

Only those who don't believe themselves to be worthy of rule are correct. Anyone who thinks they are is wrong and they are by that one virtue less worthy than all of those who think that they aren't.

 

We are all created equal but those who think they are worthy of power are less equal than the rest of us. 

And yes that means we are ruled by the least and worst of us. Or at least they are among the lowest. The audacity one must have to think they can decide how people they've never met will live is staggering. 

[Eveangaline]

I liked that you could have her rule while Alistair goes off to live happily as a warden. I did not like that if you had her and alistair rule side by side everything defaulted to him. I hope if she's married to him they share time in cameos this time.

[King Dragonlord]

I liked that you could have her rule while Alistair goes off to live happily as a warden. I did not like that if you had her and alistair rule side by side everything defaulted to him. I hope if she's married to him they share time in cameos this time.

 

I assume you're referring to the King Alistair quest in Dragon Age II and possibly his appearance at the beginning of Awakening. 

 

First, its in character. If Anora and Alistair are ruling and a task requires one of the royals to go on a long trip, which one of them is more comfortable on the road and which one of them is more comfortable remaining in Denerim to see about business? 

 

Second, I think the devs (if they thought about this) assumed that most people would prefer to see their old traveling companion that they spent many hours on the road with over the queen that played a much smaller but still pivotal role in the story. 

 

Then again, it may have been a matter of which voice actor they could get ahold of. Who knows. 

 

EDIT: Maybe I'm going blind by but I could have sworn these edit buttons weren't here before. I wouldn't have quoted myself in a second post if I could have gone back and just edited that post.

[TK514]

I wouldn't cite this in any argument about Anora usurping the throne. Maric was, after all, declared dead and no one knew any different - Loghain even spent two years looking for him before giving up all hope. The line of succession was followed as Cailan assumed the throne.

 

 

That certainly seems like a distinct possibility, and would behoove Alistair to try to find a magical solution to the issue of Grey Wardens having difficulty conceiving children and/or awarding the teyrnir of Gwaren to a family other than Mac Tir. That is, assuming he would care about shoring up his position and the continuity of the Theirin line.

 

 

Most of my "canon" playthroughs have ended with Alistair and Anora ruling jointly, so that I can indeed have my cake and eat it too.

 

Anora is an ambitious woman that has lusted after power her entire life, seems to be more than willing to look away when her father is committing crimes against Fereldan and its people, and is more than willing to double-cross a Warden that attempts to rescue her from captivity at the hands of her own father. But she has proven herself to be a capable and effective ruler during her marriage to Cailan and the people of Fereldan seem to adore her.

 

Alistair has never desired power and has to be cajoled into pushing a claim for the throne, which I can respect - he doesn't feel like he's worthy of being a ruler, and such humility would serve him well in the role. Furthermore, he has lived in several aspects of Fereldan society - in a noble estate, in a Chantry orphanage, been trained as a templar, and been trained as a Grey Warden. He has traveled the nation and made connections with numerous people, including Dalish elves, city elves, and dwarves. He is a proven war hero due to his actions during the Fifth Blight, and is generally a good and decent person who strives for justice.

 

Together, those two can make an excellent team, complementing one another's strengths and weaknesses.

 

Humility might be a valuable trait in a ruler, but was Alistair humble, or did he lack self-confidence?  Because the latter is terrible in a ruler.

 

I always thought Alistair could have been great if he'd had any ambition at all, but he lacked ambition because he lacked confidence.  He saw himself as the worthless bastard no one wanted, who was ignored by his real father, and cast aside by his surrogate.  I took that as one of the reasons he latched so firmly onto Duncan, because Duncan was someone he could look up to who actually appeared to see value in him.  Hence his constant self-depreciation and his fanatical devotion to Duncan's memory.

 

Of course, the books take some of the wind out of Duncan's regard by making his motives merely belatedly keeping a promise to Super Magical Girl Fiona, but in DA:O it was still a nice bit of character building.

[Xandurpein]

The point is she already had all that grooming, all the advisors and all the support. She'd been queen for years, supposedly doing the real ruling while Cailan was more a "face" or a good front. And she still found herself in this situation.

How can people argue that Anora is weak, just because she can't take over when Cailan dies. She is a Queen consort. She is not Cailan's heir or anything. A consort is not in the line of succession, and neither are bastards. Cailan dies without any heir, so Ferelden needs a Landsmeet to confirm a new king or queen.

Anora rules Ferelden for all practical purposes, except she isn't involved in military matters. Cailan leads the army, with advice from her father Loghain. Unless you blame Anora for the Blight, she's not responsible for the mess the country ends up in after Ostagar.

Some people argue she should have taken over from her dad earlier. First of all that's not easy. The country is in the middle of a military crisis, the Blight, and there she's a bit out of her depth. It's pretty big step to take the fight openly with her own father, during a military crisis, when she can no longer rule in Cailan's name.

The fact that she is seen as a serious contender to the throne, despite not being an heir, not coming from any of the old noble families and also being the daughter of a deposed tyrant, is testament to just how politically strong she is.

[Xandurpein]

I always thought Alistair could have been great if he'd had any ambition at all, but he lacked ambition because he lacked confidence.  He saw himself as the worthless bastard no one wanted, who was ignored by his real father, and cast aside by his surrogate.  I took that as one of the reasons he latched so firmly onto Duncan, because Duncan was someone he could look up to who actually appeared to see value in him.  Hence his constant self-depreciation and his fanatical devotion to Duncan's memory.

Alistair and Anora seems to have at least one thing in common. Fathers' with lousy parenting skills...

[CrazyGobstopper]

Humility might be a valuable trait in a ruler, but was Alistair humble, or did he lack self-confidence?  Because the latter is terrible in a ruler.  [...]

That's a fair question to ask, and I do agree that Alistair initially lacks self-confidence. In many of my playthroughs, however, my Wardens help him to build the self-confidence that he likely would have had if he had had a different upbringing, to the point where many of them feel he has arrived at a point where he can be entrusted to sit the throne.

[ladyiolanthe]

I forgot to add that if Alistair is a solo king, he'll imprison Anora. That said she'll still remain the heir to the throne should anything happen to Alistair. 

He also does it if you choose to marry him as a female Cousland. Anora actually compliments him on his wisdom when he announces that decision. I think she unfortunately underestimated him because, if I remember correctly, she had never actually met him before the events of the game, and just assumes he is as stupid as Cailan was.

 

This pretty much sums up what I think of her. However, I did hate how Anora was on a lesser footing than Alistair when they were bethrothed (lines defaulted to Alistair, etc).

I would have married Alistair and Anora off for the good of Ferelden if she hadn't said "Fine, I'll marry him, but only if I'm the one who gets to make all the decisions and he's just a figurehead." (Not in those exact words, but that is what she says). I wasn't willing to do that to Alistair, especially not after hardening him so that he could actually make a good ruler, so I ended up not marrying them off.

 

Provided that she isn't either imprisoned or queen I always assumed that there's was nothing really stopping her from claiming Gwaren, seeing as she's Loghain's only heir. That would put her on some interesting footing for the coup theory.

 

...or am I remembering incorrectly and she always gets imprisoned if not queen?

She always gets imprisoned if she is not the queen, and if a King Alistair does the US, then Anora becomes queen as Alistair planned.

 

Pretty sure hardened Alistair has her killed if he survives archie.

Nothing ever confirmed this. I kind of wonder if he keeps her alive as a political hostage to a) keep the Gwaren populace on good behaviour and b ) he knows he is going to have trouble producing an heir, in which case, he might keep her alive in case no heir is produced. Yes, I think Alistair is smart enough, and a hardened Alistair is tough enough, to make those sorts of decisions.

 

That's a fair question to ask, and I do agree that Alistair initially lacks self-confidence. In many of my playthroughs, however, my Wardens help him to build the self-confidence that he likely would have had if he had had a different upbringing, to the point where many of them feel he has arrived at a point where he can be entrusted to sit the throne.

Agreed. I found the same in my playthroughs.