238 réponses à ce sujet

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Im sorry but i think you do not read the codex properly. Go play 'return to ostagar' and read one of cailan's notes. You will find that Eamon tells cailan that anora was in her thirties and a heir was priority. Eamon also told cailan to look at other options if things with anora did not improve. As for cailan being unfaithful, when eamon suggested divorcing anora, they had a bitter argument. So ur suggestion that cailan was some sort of a drooliing cheat is uncalled for.
We also havnt heard alistair having a chilx with anora anywhere. She is probably resisting him like she resisted cailan. She thinks she iis some sort of super natural virgin queen or sth.

I'm not really supporting the fact that Cailan was cheating on Anora however...
That doesn't really prove he wasn't cheating.

[Milan92]

Wasn't it common knowledge that Cailan had a few mistresses?

 

I could have sworn that I have read/heard that a few times in the game.

[Spicen]

Wasn't it common knowledge that Cailan had a few mistresses?

I could have sworn that I have read/heard that a few times in the game.

This is a game set in the middle age. In that age, kings had plenty of wives.

[Milan92]

This is a game set in the middle age. In that age, kings had plenty of wives.

 

Eh, always only 1 wife, but quite a few mistresses, yeah.

[HK-90210]

Anora herself mentions to some Wardens that Cailan kept his philandering discreet, but it did happen. She asks if he(if a Cousland trying to marry her who is in a romance already) or she(If romancing Alistair and trying to marry him off to her) are going to do similarly.

 

Given that we've heard nothing of a bastard of Cailan's, I think we can assume that nothing ever came from those relationships, though that could change easily. It's part of the reason I strongly suspect that is wasn't just Anora's problem when it came to siring an heir, if it was hers at all. Cailan may have been shootin' blanks.

[Spicen]

Eh, always only 1 wife, but quite a few mistresses, yeah.

I dont blame them though, there were no contraceptives, so um, they had no choice.

[Xandurpein]

And slaughtering elves if they cause any civil disturbance. I have virtually no fondness for Anora.

I'm sorry, but this argument is quite tiresome. Anora isn't slaughtering the elves. She's doing what every ruler in a quasi-medival society would do in the same situation. Call out the guards and restore order. This isn't a modern society with civil liberties. Even Alistair would do the same in the same situation, or at least Eamon would do it for him. If he didn't the rioters would burn Denerim and end his rule.

Of course Alistair is popular enough so there's no need for unrest. He has a huge advantage over Anora, since he fought with the Warden in the Alienage. The same thing can be said for a Cousland prince by the way. Hence no need to restore order, which of course is a good thing.

But when there are riots, whether it's elves or humans, in the streets, there's really not much a medival ruler can do, but bash enough heads to scare the rest away. And in the long run, it's factors like education, economic growth and modernizing the society that can alleviate inequalities that is the root of unrest. Not a particular king being likeable.

Even in our modern society, where we know (or should know) that unrest among the poor, especially if it's related to an ethnic minority, the only real solution is to deal with the underlying roots to the social unrest. You can't solve those issues, while rioters are in the streets and looting. You have to enforce the law, and then change it, because if people break the law, then changing it won't matter.

Happily we are less barbaric when we do enforce laws than in medival tumes (at least in parts of the globe), but in a quasi-medival feudal society like Ferelden, quelling riots meant deaths. This isn't just because rulers where more brutal then. Medival peasant riots that weren't quelled would invariably escalate until they threatened the whole society, unless they were checked. No sane ruler wants to kill his or her own people. It's just that when the whole culture is more brutal, then it takes more violence to stop riots, because violence is part of society.

TLDR: Feel free to think that Anora should have done more to avoid unrest among the elves, but it's naive to think that Anora could have done anything else, once the riots began.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Why? Read the chronicles of how queen elizabeth 1 stayed virgin and why she thought her rule wud be disrupted and her power diminished if she had a child.

 

I don't think Queen Anora and Queen Elizabeth I really make sense as a comparison. Queen Elizabeth was queen in her own right whereas Queen Anora was queen consort. I don't recall reading anything about Queen Anora that implied she was trying not to have a child. That wouldn't make any sense, if anything she would probably want to give Cailan an heir to secure her place as queen. I would probably be more inclined to compare Anora with Catherine of Aragon (Henry VIII's first wife) who was very popular with the people but was unable to give Henry a male heir. There's also a few similarities with Anora and Margaret of Anjou who ruled for her husband Henry VI who by all accounts was a poor King.

 

I think if any character was roughly based on Queen Elizabeth I it would be Empress Celene who has ruled Orlais for twenty years without taking a husband. Also from what I've read about Queen Elizabeth I (okay fine I watched a  BBC documentary on the telly) I always got them impression that she didn't marry because people would assume her husband was the real power behind the throne. Her sister Queen Mary I was the first queen of England to reign in her own right (after all Henry's efforts to produce a male heir his two daughters ended up being queens in the end) but when she married she took her husband as co-monarch. I think like Queen Elizabeth, Empress Celene won't marry because she doesn't want to relinquish any power (although in Dragon Age women seem to have a greater share of power than women did in 16th century England and Celene possibly has other reasons for not marrying).

[Xilizhra]

I'm sorry, but this argument is quite tiresome. Anora isn't slaughtering the elves. She's doing what every ruler in a quasi-medival society would do in the same situation. Call out the guards and restore order. This isn't a modern society with civil liberties. Even Alistair would do the same in the same situation, or at least Eamon would do it for him. If he didn't the rioters would burn Denerim and end his rule.

Of course Alistair is popular enough so there's no need for unrest. He has a huge advantage over Anora, since he fought with the Warden in the Alienage. The same thing can be said for a Cousland prince by the way. Hence no need to restore order, which of course is a good thing.

But when there are riots, whether it's elves or humans, in the streets, there's really not much a medival ruler can do, but bash enough heads to scare the rest away. And in the long run, it's factors like education, economic growth and modernizing the society that can alleviate inequalities that is the root of unrest. Not a particular king being likeable.

Even in our modern society, where we know (or should know) that unrest among the poor, especially if it's related to an ethnic minority, the only real solution is to deal with the underlying roots to the social unrest. You can't solve those issues, while rioters are in the streets and looting. You have to enforce the law, and then change it, because if people break the law, then changing it won't matter.

Happily we are less barbaric when we do enforce laws than in medival tumes (at least in parts of the globe), but in a quasi-medival feudal society like Ferelden, quelling riots meant deaths. This isn't just because rulers where more brutal then. Medival peasant riots that weren't quelled would invariably escalate until they threatened the whole society, unless they were checked. No sane ruler wants to kill his or her own people. It's just that when the whole culture is more brutal, then it takes more violence to stop riots, because violence is part of society.

TLDR: Feel free to think that Anora should have done more to avoid unrest among the elves, but it's naive to think that Anora could have done anything else, once the riots began.

And she bloody well should have. The root of this unrest was a food shortage; given that there's no mention of rioting anywhere else, it seems likely that the culprit was unfairly weighted distribution. Additionally there's certainly no mention of a "crackdown" or "coming down hard" on the human population of Denerim when they start a race riot over a CE Warden bann being a symbol of hope for the city elves, while crackdowns are issued if the elves riot over Shianni being murdered; simple expediency definitely does not seem to be the only motivating force here.

Of course, the latter issues still happen if Alistair is king, and I'm by no means happy about that, but I have to pick one of them.

[TK514]

And she bloody well should have. The root of this unrest was a food shortage; given that there's no mention of rioting anywhere else, it seems likely that the culprit was unfairly weighted distribution. Additionally there's certainly no mention of a "crackdown" or "coming down hard" on the human population of Denerim when they start a race riot over a CE Warden bann being a symbol of hope for the city elves, while crackdowns are issued if the elves riot over Shianni being murdered; simple expediency definitely does not seem to be the only motivating force here.

Of course, the latter issues still happen if Alistair is king, and I'm by no means happy about that, but I have to pick one of them.

 

Illegal in Ferelden to defend an elf from a human.

[Xilizhra]

Illegal in Ferelden to defend an elf from a human.

Really? No one seemed to mind my carving a swathe through the Tevinter slavers in the Alienage.

[MisterJB]

And she bloody well should have. The root of this unrest was a food shortage; given that there's no mention of rioting anywhere else, it seems likely that the culprit was unfairly weighted distribution.

 

Or that elves are just a violent, thugish lot.

I'm counting 4 endings where they riot. One is over Soris marrying a human.
 

[Green]

Really? No one seemed to mind my carving a swathe through the Tevinter slavers in the Alienage.

 

In doing so it would have come up as to why exactly Tevinter slavers were there in the first place, as slavery is also illegal in Ferelden iirc. Not good for Loghain when his position on the throne was tenuous as it was, and exactly why you can bring it up at the Landsmeet to argue he isn't fit.

[Xilizhra]

Or that elves are just a violent, thugish lot.

I'm counting 4 endings where they riot. One is over Soris marrying a human.
 

That only happens if he ensures that the next Alienage bann is human, which, let's face it, was a completely boneheaded move.

[Xandurpein]

I don't think Queen Anora and Queen Elizabeth I really make sense as a comparison. Queen Elizabeth was queen in her own right whereas Queen Anora was queen consort. I don't recall reading anything about Queen Anora that implied she was trying not to have a child. That wouldn't make any sense, if anything she would probably want to give Cailan an heir to secure her place as queen. I would probably be more inclined to compare Anora with Catherine of Aragon (Henry VIII's first wife) who was very popular with the people but was unable to give Henry a male heir. There's also a few similarities with Anora and Margaret of Anjou who ruled for her husband Henry VI who by all accounts was a poor King.
 
I think if any character was roughly based on Queen Elizabeth I it would be Empress Celene who has ruled Orlais for twenty years without taking a husband. Also from what I've read about Queen Elizabeth I (okay fine I watched a  BBC documentary on the telly) I always got them impression that she didn't marry because people would assume her husband was the real power behind the throne. Her sister Queen Mary I was the first queen of England to reign in her own right (after all Henry's efforts to produce a male heir his two daughters ended up being queens in the end) but when she married she took her husband as co-monarch. I think like Queen Elizabeth, Empress Celene won't marry because she doesn't want to relinquish any power (although in Dragon Age women seem to have a greater share of power than women did in 16th century England and Celene possibly has other reasons for not marrying).

If you talk about Anora while she was married to Cailan, I guess Margaret d'Anjou is a better comparioson. Although her husband suffered from long periods of mental breakdown. Maybe Elizabeth Woodville is also a possible comparison. She was married to King Edward IV (who defeated Margaret d'Anjou at Twekesbury). Edward IV was a charismatic leader of men, but got critisized by the nobility for letting his beautiful Queen wrapping him around her finger.

If anyone is interested in some real history about women and power in medival England, I wholeheartedly recommend the links below to a documentary about England early queens. Who knew that another English Queen actually led an armed rebellion against her husband?





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Tpbkt2FgU

[Sarcastic Tasha]

If you talk about Anora while she was married to Cailan, I guess Margaret d'Anjou is a better comparioson. Although her husband suffered from long periods of mental breakdown. Maybe Elizabeth Woodville is also a possible comparison. She was married to King Edward IV (who defeated Margaret d'Anjou at Twekesbury). Edward IV was a charismatic leader of men, but got critisized by the nobility for letting his beautiful Queen wrapping him around her finger.

If anyone is interested in some real history about women and power in medival England, I wholeheartedly recommend the links below to a documentary about England early queens. Who knew that another English Queen actually led an armed rebellion against her husband?
 

 

I'm not really much of a history buff, I hated history in school but I've taken an interest after watching a few period dramas. I watched the Tudors then had to read up on Henry VIII and his wives to find out how much of it was true. I also watched the White Queen which was about Elizabeth Woodville and I'd agree you could make a few comparisons with her and Anora.

 

I'd second your recommendation on that three part documentary I watched it on BBC Four (I think) a while back and I thought it was excellent. 

[Urazz]

Im sorry but i think you do not read the codex properly. Go play 'return to ostagar' and read one of cailan's notes. You will find that Eamon tells cailan that anora was in her thirties and a heir was priority. Eamon also told cailan to look at other options if things with anora did not improve. As for cailan being unfaithful, when eamon suggested divorcing anora, they had a bitter argument. So ur suggestion that cailan was some sort of a drooliing cheat is uncalled for.
We also havnt heard alistair having a chilx with anora anywhere. She is probably resisting him like she resisted cailan. She thinks she iis some sort of super natural virgin queen or sth.

Actually Cailan not wanting to put Anora aside doesn't mean anything on being faithful.  He could easily want to stay married to Anora for many reasons and still sleep around.

 

1. Anora let Cailan get away with sleeping around with other women instead of calling him out on it and wanting a divorce.

2. Anora pretty much ran the country in Cailan's place so he could go around doing what he wanted.

3. He does care about Anora from what I gathered.

 

All of those are good reasons for Cailan to not divorce Anora until Celene came along wanting to acquire Fereldan through marriage instead of conquering it through force.  Celene probably would let Cailan have mistresses and would gladly rule in his place and while he probably doesn't care for her, it would give him a new wife to attempt to have children with and allow him to make his mark in history as a king who helped unite two kingdoms peacefully (Cailan's perspective).

 

I'm having two imports, one where Alistair and Anora are together, and one where Alistair is alone as king.  I'm wondering if Celene will try to court Alistair like she did Cailan as a way to resolve the Civil War in Orlais so I'm having one playthrough where Alistair is alone as king.

[Xandurpein]

Actually Cailan not wanting to put Anora aside doesn't mean anything on being faithful.  He could easily want to stay married to Anora for many reasons and still sleep around.
 
1. Anora let Cailan get away with sleeping around with other women instead of calling him out on it and wanting a divorce.
2. Anora pretty much ran the country in Cailan's place so he could go around doing what he wanted.
3. He does care about Anora from what I gathered.
 
All of those are good reasons for Cailan to not divorce Anora until Celene came along wanting to acquire Fereldan through marriage instead of conquering it through force.  Celene probably would let Cailan have mistresses and would gladly rule in his place and while he probably doesn't care for her, it would give him a new wife to attempt to have children with and allow him to make his mark in history as a king who helped unite two kingdoms peacefully (Cailan's perspective).
 
I'm having two imports, one where Alistair and Anora are together, and one where Alistair is alone as king.  I'm wondering if Celene will try to court Alistair like she did Cailan as a way to resolve the Civil War in Orlais so I'm having one playthrough where Alistair is alone as king.

It's interesting how people assume modern standards and morals apply to a quasi-medival setting like Ferelden. While Dragon Age is a fantasy, and may not mirror medival history in everything, I think that it's fair to assume that in some ways it would. It's mentioned for example that marriage in Ferelden was a business arrangement, not done for love.in the real world queen was expected to put up with a King's mistresses, and it was certainly not grounds for a divorce. That's a modern concept. A queen on the other hand, could be sentenced for treason if she was having an affair, as that could call into doubt the heritage of the heirs.

I think the fact that Anora reveals that Cailan has mistresses and is even prepared for a female warden be Alistair's lover, if she marries him, indicates that the custom in Ferelden isn't too far off the real middle ages in this. Royal mistresses was a fact of life and everyone knew it. I don't even remember seeing any mention that there exists such a thing as divorces in Thedas.

[Xandurpein]

Of course the fact that Cailan considers leaving Anora means marriages can be dissolved. The term in the old days was annulled, not divorce. Again, it was for practical dynastic reasons. A king could get the marriage annulled if the queen was indeed barren, but the queen had no grounds for an annullment if the king had a mistress or two.

[Sifr]

Or that elves are just a violent, thugish lot.

I'm counting 4 endings where they riot. One is over Soris marrying a human.
 

 

Except all of those riots are explicitly stated to have been started by human bigotry;

 

One riot is started by humans forming an angry mob due to the elves becoming more powerful or prosperous under the City Elf Warden as Bann, another starts when a human-lead mob stones another Elven Bann to death, another occurs when a human bigot murders Shianna and the last one happens when both sides of the city are angered by Soris marrying a wealthy human.

 

In only Soris' case the elves were just as responsible for the riot as the humans were, but in the majority of cases, the Elves are simply the victims and not the instigators of the subsequent riots.

 

From all indications, it's the human population of Denerim that are the violent thugs, or just bigoted against the Elven community.

[HK-90210]

I'm really looking forward to hearing Mika Simmons give voice to my favorite queen in Thedas. Even though Celene is supposed to be this really great female ruler character, I think Dragon Age already had that with Anora. She's so much better than that failed Orlesian home-wrecker. Anora is calm, collected, cunning, calculating and courageous(wow, lot of Cs there) and fairly upfront about who she is and what she stands for. She's a character that, for the time she is featured, truly owns the screen. I've never understood the hate for her, personally. Frankly, I never leave Alistair alone on the throne, hardened or no. The only game save in which Anora is not the sole or co-ruler of the realm is my Warden Queen save.

 

And my King Cousland Warden is my canon Warden. My headcanon for those two ends up being quite sweet.

 

The only issue I've got is that I doubt the devs will ever give an heir to Anora, which I consider sad. But considering the headache involved in trying to work out which of the monarch pairs produce an heir and which don't, I think the devs only have two options: All of the pairs produce an heir, or none do. And all of the pairs involve single rulers who seemingly have no intent to marry, or a Warden with a woman past her prime childbearing years who has yet to have children, or two Wardens together(a pairing that, as far as we know, has NEVER produced offspring). In order to avoid the headaches of explaining away all of that, I think the devs will just decide to say "Yeah, there is never any heir. Fergus Cousland becomes king. End of story." Course, that's a few games down the road, probably.

[Xandurpein]

I think the hints are very obvious here. Bioware need to cover their bases. If they want to reuse Ferelden for a game set sometime in the future, they can't have too many variables. Since any combination of two rulers on the throne in the game involves people known or suspected to have fertility problems, they can easily ignore the outcome of individual players' ends to DA:O for dynastic purposes. Regardless of who had the throne, they died without an heir, so X was elected king/queen.

That said, I wrote a quite lengthy fanfic based on my own headcanon and it turned out quite sweet in the end too, despite some trouble along the way.

https://www.fanficti...Queen-of-Thorns

[Sifr]

I like the idea of Fergus Cousland being involved somehow and I could see them doing a few things that would make sense to involve him;

 

If Anora rules alone, nearing 40 and with still no heir in sight, she decides to marry a prominent noble who would support her claim for the throne, much like she can do with the m!Cousland Warden. Since we know that Fergus is around regardless of whether the HN was the Warden and has become a prominent General in the army according to Oghren in Awakening, I could see her potentially marrying him, as he could match up to her father's standard. With Fergus similarly in a bind without any heirs to the Cousland name and the future of Highever in doubt, marrying Anora would make a good match, at least politically.

 

If the Warden rules with Anora, their eventual disappearance in 9:37, leaving no heirs and with no sign of their return; Anora could easily decide to seek a divorce and instead marry the Warden's brother Fergus, for the same reasons as listed above.

 

They could also retcon it so that Alistair was never executed, only imprisoned or exiled, leaving it an open possibility that he'd get the throne if Anora dies without providing any heirs. (Before people start complaining of pulling another resurrection, it's worth noting that unlike the Warden killing Leliana at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, we never actually see Alistair die when he's taken away for his execution).

 

If Fergus was married to Anora when she died, I could see him doing the honourable thing and relinquising the throne to Alistair as his claim via marriage was even more tenuous than Anora's. If he's not married to her, I could still imagine that Fergus would support Bann Teagan and Eamon's efforts to lobby the Landsmeet to release Alistair from prison or lift his exile, allowing him to gain the throne once more.

 

While I hope they'll respect our choices to put Anora/Alistair/Cousland Warden on the throne, I can see see there being a few outs they could take, particularly if the want to make it so that Alistair does eventually take the throne regardless (unless you sacrificed him to the Archdemon that is).

[CrazyGobstopper]

[...] They could also retcon it so that Alistair was never executed, only imprisoned or exiled, leaving it an open possibility that he'd get the throne if Anora dies without providing any heirs. [...]

If Anora were to die of natural means (i.e., old age), then I would think it unlikely that Alistair would not already be dead before her, having gone on his Calling. Likewise, Eamon would almost certainly have passed away, considering his age. Teagan doesn't seem like he has the ambitious personality that would drive him to leave Redcliffe and Rainesfere.

 

Your thoughts re: Anora and Fergus Cousland seem like sound supposition, though. At the very least, I could easily picture a future Landsmeet, where Alistair, Eamon, and Anora have all passed away, turning to the Cousland line to establish a new dynasty to replace the broken Theirin line.

[Sifr]

If Anora were to die of natural means (i.e., old age), then I would think it unlikely that Alistair would not already be dead before her, having gone on his Calling. Likewise, Eamon would almost certainly have passed away, considering his age. Teagan doesn't seem like he has the ambitious personality that would drive him to leave Redcliffe and Rainesfere.

 

Your thoughts re: Anora and Fergus Cousland seem like sound supposition, though. At the very least, I could easily picture a future Landsmeet, where Alistair, Eamon, and Anora have all passed away, turning to the Cousland line to establish a new dynasty to replace the broken Theirin line.

 

You're right that Anora is likely to outlive Alistair, Eamon isn't likely to live that long (and I wonder if isn't already dead, since we hear that Teagan is now Arl of Redcliffe, unless he abdicated) and Teagan isn't ambitious enough to seize the throne, I meant however in the unlikely event that Anora died suddenly in the decade between Origins and Inquisition, I could see Eamon and Teagan trying to get the Landsmeet to reconsider Alistair.

 

(After all, we see Teagan try to do something similar for drunk!Alistair in DA2 and get him to sober up and retake the throne, showing that just because the Landsmeet turned him down once, doesn't mean that they want Alistair to give up).

 

Establising a Cousland dynasty as the ruling family of Ferelden in the case of the Theirin line dying out, or through Fergus and Anora makes a lot of sense from what we know of the politics of Ferelden. The Teyrnir of Highever is one of the oldest and most powerful regions in Ferelden, the Cousland's have been staunch loyalists for centuries (barring taking part in the noble rebellion against Arland, who was supposedly a tyrant) and we hear rumours that Bryce Cousland was even considered over Cailan for the throne after Maric's death, showing how popular the family is. The Landsmeet would probably want him to take over as the sole remaining Teyrn in Ferelden and the highest ranking noble left, or support him as a match for Anora.