238 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

I'm sure she's a capable administrator, but from the epilogue slides, it would seem that Alistair is arguably more competent if hardened; he, at least, doesn't cause a food riot.

To be fair Anora and Alistair each have their strengths and weaknesses as rulers.

 

Anora is politically savvy and has some big goals (plans for a university) but is generally not very unconventional and not as much of a people person.

 

Hardened Alistair is quite personable and approachable and well liked by everyone for the most part and is quite unconventional and not afraid to shake things up a bit which is why he probably avoided the food riot with the elves by having an elven elder as an advisor.  Anora would've never have done that.

 

It's generally why I marry the two of them together.

[HK-90210]

From the sound of it, you dont know politicians very well do you? Let me assure you most politicians are sewer rats and they wud do Anything to achieve their goals. In Anora's case, she is ready to sell her father and backstab the warden for the throne. I dont really hate her for that, she is acting like a proper politician. And the whole save the fereldan thing, well she doesnt care as much for the safety of fereldan as she does for the power. She wants the power, nothing else. She is just like howe albeit less treacherous. Yet less people kill her, not howe. Why? Because unlike howe she is a beautiful golden haired barbie- esque woman who you can happen to 'marry' but without being the king.lol.
Do i despise her for selling her own father and slandering the warden? No. Do i despise her for ordering the execution of alistair? No. Do i trust her? No. Why? Because she is a proper politician(aka sewer rat).
And whoever you are, you cud be a politician you know? After all you skillfully put those words in my mouth. I never said to the original poster that he/she was unintelligent.

 

Also, unlike Howe, she's not a child-murderer, nor is she willing to wipe out an entire castle just to further her political ends. She betrays Logain after he usurps her rightful authority and puts her under house arrest. But even as she betrays him, she doesn't want him executed if it can be avoided, because she loves her father. And she doesn't 'backstab' the Warden to get the throne. She backstabs him/her to try and save her father, possibly at the cost of losing her the throne, showing that her highest priority is not power. And if the Warden doesn't agree to make her queen, in my opinion, it's not really a backstab, since there is no agreement to betray.

 

And I think comparing her to Howe is comparing two different people with different motives and backgrounds. Howe was the holder of a backwater arling in northern Ferelden who decided that he deserved his friend's lands because "I deserved more", so he wipes out an entire castle and murders one of the highest-ranking nobles in Ferleden on the outset of a Blight. Anora has been queen a long time, and desires only to rule in her own right after the death of her husband, rather than as a consort. She's earned that, and she's not taking power from someone higher than herself to do it. She IS the 'someone higher'. She's not reaching for something someone else has, she's not envious of another person's place in the world. She doesn't want to be Empress or Orlais or the Divine. She wants to be Queen of Ferelden, because she loves her home, and believes that she's its best hope as monarch.

 

Saying that she's like Howe, but less treacherous, shows just how little you understand about her character, IMO.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Considering your name i hope u are being sarcastic.
There is nothing good about a person who can sell her own father and the warden who saved her for some damned throne.
If you came with a sewer rat woman like anora you wont be defending her, you'd be calling her b1tch.
+Your sister sounds intelligent, you shud listen to what she says

 

Funny you should mention rats, I had a pet rat in university. Rats have a bad reputation but they are intelligent and are able to adapt. Humans have completely changed the environment, destroyed habitats but rats have endured. Not just endured but thrived and I find that commendable.

 

But I digress. I wouldn't really say Anora sells out her father. She could see that her father was going too far and was becoming a tyrant. She stood up to him, to her own father, a man considered a hero by many, that takes guts if you ask me. Also as others have said, she asks that the warden spare his life because she still loves him.

 

Anora doesn't sell out the warden either. Its true the warden rescued Anora from Loghain but I doubt she was ever in any real danger as his prisoner. But if the Warden makes Alistair King its entirely possible (she may even think it probable) that he would have her executed. As I said in my previous post, Anora has every reason to side against the warden if the warden is siding against her. In my book that isn't a betrayal. The warden has the choice to be more duplicitous, you can tell Anora your siding with her so that she supports you in the landsmeet then you can side with Alistair instead.

 

Anora may not be a particularly nice person, in fact I may go as far as to say she's pretty ruthless. But I don't think she's a horrible person, she shows some compassion, I think she'd make a good ruler. She seems like the sort of person that would be willing to make the tough decisions whereas I don't think Alistair would.

[Spicen]

Funny you should mention rats, I had a pet rat in university. Rats have a bad reputation but they are intelligent and are able to adapt. Humans have completely changed the environment, destroyed habitats but rats have endured. Not just endured but thrived and I find that commendable.

But I digress. I wouldn't really say Anora sells out her father. She could see that her father was going too far and was becoming a tyrant. She stood up to him, to her own father, a man considered a hero by many, that takes guts if you ask me. Also as others have said, she asks that the warden spare his life because she still loves him.

Anora doesn't sell out the warden either. Its true the warden rescued Anora from Loghain but I doubt she was ever in any real danger as his prisoner. But if the Warden makes Alistair King its entirely possible (she may even think it probable) that he would have her executed. As I said in my previous post, Anora has every reason to side against the warden if the warden is siding against her. In my book that isn't a betrayal. The warden has the choice to be more duplicitous, you can tell Anora your siding with her so that she supports you in the landsmeet then you can side with Alistair instead.

Anora may not be a particularly nice person, in fact I may go as far as to say she's pretty ruthless. But I don't think she's a horrible person, she shows some compassion, I think she'd make a good ruler. She seems like the sort of person that would be willing to make the tough decisions whereas I don't think Alistair would.

Hmm, i think your support for anora has sth to do with your affinity for rats. Hope u washed your hands. Those things are heaven for mircobes.

I dont hate anora. Im just saying that blind support should not be placed on politicians.

I commend ur calmness though, i half expected u to start throwing nukes at me. lol

[Xandurpein]

There are some real sewer rats among politicians. The irony is that it's the people who think ALL politicians are rats that vote them into office. Being seen as "anti-establishment" is often popular among the worst politicians of them all.

[Sifr]

I don't think that Anora is necessarily looking at the situation like an amoral politician would and craving her own personal power above all else (although she might have considered it), but rather what she thinks is best for the country and those who would be her subjects.

 

Like her father, she's got a stubborn and prideful streak that can sometimes get the better of her, particularly when she forms an opinion of something or someone. Both Anora and Loghain are people who hate to be wrong, find it difficult to consider that they might be, and have an even worse time openly admitting it to others.

 

 

From her POV, putting Alistair on the throne alone is putting all of Ferelden at risk. And frankly, I think she's right. Even my Wardens who took issue with her attitude accepted the fact that with her on their side, the Landsmeet is a slam dunk, and a united Landsmeet means a stronger Ferelden. A political marriage between the two of them is still the most practical option, and one nearly every Warden I have takes.

 

In my opinion, anyone who puts Alistair on the throne by himself is not thinking straight. Anora can only make the throne stronger. There's no logical reason to take her off the throne. Again, in my opinion.

 

This is part of the reason I often debate whether or not to have Alistair rule jointly or seperately.

 

On the one hand, Anora can bring a lot to strengthen Alistair's rule and it would make a far more stable country without any dissent from those still loyal to Anora. On the other hand, she brings her force of personality with her and that might be detrimental as well. If we're to believe her account of her marriage to Cailain, she's already gotten used to ruling the country while Cailan enjoyed skiving off to do whatever peaked his interest... or whoever peaked his interest, if he was unfaithful as she further claimed.

 

It's therefore possible that Anora's backseat driving might cause Alistair to become lazy and slack off, which we do see happen if he's unhardened, according to that particular epilogue. On the contrary, Alistair ruling by himself gives the potential to have even more of a push to greatness, free to forge his own path without outside interference from those with their own ways of doing things. Keep in mind, Anora does comment on a hardened Alistair being eager and willing to learn.

 

It's not to say that Anora is a bad ruler, but she's grown up in that world and would likely want to see the status quo maintained, since it's the way it's always been done and it's worked well enough so far. Alistair meanwhile seems to favour change and has seen Ferelden from the perspective of the common people, struggling to get by. He knows that the system in place is not perfect and we constantly see him ask the Warden to help people throughout the game, so as a ruler, he'd be more sympathetic to the poorest of his subject's plights.

 

Of course, this is the difficulty of the decision, because both have their merits and both have their flaws?

[HK-90210]

I don't think that Anora is necessarily looking at the situation like an amoral politician would and craving her own personal power above all else (although she might have considered it), but rather what she thinks is best for the country and those who would be her subjects.

 

Like her father, she's got a stubborn and prideful streak that can sometimes get the better of her, particularly when she forms an opinion of something or someone. Both Anora and Loghain are people who hate to be wrong, find it difficult to consider that they might be, and have an even worse time openly admitting it to others.

 

 

This is part of the reason I often debate whether or not to have Alistair rule jointly or seperately.

 

On the one hand, Anora can bring a lot to strengthen Alistair's rule and it would make a far more stable country without any dissent from those still loyal to Anora. On the other hand, she brings her force of personality with her and that might be detrimental as well. If we're to believe her account of her marriage to Cailain, she's already gotten used to ruling the country while Cailan enjoyed skiving off to do whatever peaked his interest... or whoever peaked his interest, if he was unfaithful as she further claimed.

 

It's therefore possible that Anora's backseat driving might cause Alistair to become lazy and slack off, which we do see happen if he's unhardened, according to that particular epilogue. On the contrary, Alistair ruling by himself gives the potential to have even more of a push to greatness, free to forge his own path without outside interference from those with their own ways of doing things. Keep in mind, Anora does comment on a hardened Alistair being eager and willing to learn.

 

It's not to say that Anora is a bad ruler, but she's grown up in that world and would likely want to see the status quo maintained, since it's the way it's always been done and it's worked well enough so far. Alistair meanwhile seems to favour change and has seen Ferelden from the perspective of the common people, struggling to get by. He knows that the system in place is not perfect and we constantly see him ask the Warden to help people throughout the game, so as a ruler, he'd be more sympathetic to the poorest of his subject's plights.

 

Of course, this is the difficulty of the decision, because both have their merits and both have their flaws?

 

Alistair ruling on his own when he is unhardened leads to men like Arl Eamon holding the real power on the realm(not necessarily a bad thing, but his rule is hardly his own), as well as dissent from Anora's supporters. Unhardened and ruling alone, I think he is bound to be in poor king despite being a good man(there are plenty of examples of that throughout history). Having Anora with him makes Alistair's rule about the same as Cailan's. Alistair puts in his public appearances and lets Anora do her own thing, just as his brother did. But he's also a good man who can guide the kingdom well on some of its injustices, like the Alienage. Having Anora with him makes sure he can actually accomplish his goals with some level of political savvy.

 

I agree that there is a logical argument to be made that a hardened Alistair ruling alone does have benefits that ruling with Anora would not. But personally, I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives. With Anora, Alistair has someone to learn from, someone both skilled and experienced at governance. It can develop into a true partnership, and the epilogue indicates that the common people that Alistair cares for really love the results. They've got a popular, dedicated queen and a heroic warrior king who not only cares for the common person, but will govern more effectively for their benefit.

 

Still, the fact that we can still be arguing the merits of the Landsmeet five years after DA:O came out really shows how well the writers did their stuff in that plotline. Solving Ferelden's throne is nothing compared to Orzammar, though. That's just one huge headache. I still never know how my Wardens will feel until they give the crown to the new king.

[King Dragonlord]

How can people argue that Anora is weak, just because she can't take over when Cailan dies. She is a Queen consort. She is not Cailan's heir or anything. A consort is not in the line of succession, and neither are bastards. Cailan dies without any heir, so Ferelden needs a Landsmeet to confirm a new king or queen.

Anora rules Ferelden for all practical purposes, except she isn't involved in military matters. Cailan leads the army, with advice from her father Loghain. Unless you blame Anora for the Blight, she's not responsible for the mess the country ends up in after Ostagar.

Some people argue she should have taken over from her dad earlier. First of all that's not easy. The country is in the middle of a military crisis, the Blight, and there she's a bit out of her depth. It's pretty big step to take the fight openly with her own father, during a military crisis, when she can no longer rule in Cailan's name.

The fact that she is seen as a serious contender to the throne, despite not being an heir, not coming from any of the old noble families and also being the daughter of a deposed tyrant, is testament to just how politically strong she is.

 

She could have pushed Loghain into focusing on the Blight if she really wanted to keep her father in play (which would be sensible with his experience). She had supposed clout. She could have undermined Loghain's supporters and reached out to those already aligning against him (they got word multiple times about this. Sure Anora wasn't in the room for some of those scenes but if she wasn't getting similar updates through her own channels, that would only support my point.)

 

From there it would have been a simple matter to threaten Loghain with public embarrassment and possible loss of his position. He can't do anything about those pesky Orlesians if his status is threatened. 

 

It may be Loghain's place to actually command the army but the Queen should have had ultimate say on the military's priorities. No General or Minister of Defense can simply go off and set defense priorities without their executive's ultimate consent unless they're staging a coup. It simply isn't done. 

[Master Warder Z_]

It may be Loghain's place to actually command the army but the Queen should have had ultimate say on the military's priorities. No General or Minister of Defense can simply go off and set defense priorities without their executive's ultimate consent unless they're staging a coup. It simply isn't done. 

 

You need to look at more history then, Consuls of War during the period of the Roman Republic, had near universal authority over the army.

 

More Recent? The position of "General of the army" In the United States, They could mobilize and utilize the armed forces without congressional approval.

 

There have been many Generals throughout history that have commanded armies of a Nation, and ultimately decided what the objective with the usage of that force was.

[King Dragonlord]

You need to look at more history then, Consuls of War during the period of the Roman Republic, had near universal authority over the army.

 

More Recent? The position of "General of the army" In the United States, They could mobilize and utilize the armed forces without congressional approval.

 

There have been many Generals throughout history that have commanded armies of a Nation, and ultimately decided what the objective with the usage of that force was.

The General of the Army couldn't set defense priorities over an extended period such as Loghain has without executive approval. Anora is the executive and a royal one to boot. As this is loosely based on feudalism, Loghain at best should have only been able to pull that with the forces of Gwaren which he is executive of (though it would have caused much tension.)

 

Rome's Republic (and the US's for that matter) was very different from the type of government we see here. Royal and noble authority isn't as beholden to procedure. 

 

Loghain would have had a hard time keeping control if Anora wanted to make a case of it. She either doesn't in which case she supports Loghain's backwards take on the situation calling her own judgment into question or she's too weak to press the issue when the Warden, an outsider, can take down Loghain on his/her own with some prep work.

 

Also to address other things, the "its her father" argument works both ways and a politician as savvy and forceful as she supposedly is should know it. Its not like she's still in waiting. She's been sitting Queen for five years. Long enough to get comfortable with it (especially with her temperament). 

[Master Warder Z_]

Loghain would have had a hard time keeping control if Anora wanted to make a case of it. She either doesn't in which case she supports Loghain's backwards take on the situation calling her own judgment into question or she's too weak to press the issue when the Warden, an outsider, can take down Loghain on his/her own with some prep work.

 

Backwards take? Securing the Borders to the West is a viable opinion considering Orlais had an army within spitting distance of it at the time. So For one, i don't fault Loghain for viewing it as a Legitimate threat, which it was. And Two i don't fault Anora for supporting her father in that.

 

Beyond that, the civil war forced Anora and Loghain's hands both, The Armies they assembled were busy quashing rebellion against the Regency until fairly late in the Blight, and by that point Fereldan's normal military was too bloodied to engage the Darkspawn without recovery, not to mention the revival of Arl Eamon forced Loghain's hand to allow a Land's Meet.

 

The Situation involving Loghain and Anora both doesn't seem to constitute Anora's or Loghain's view as being anything but incorrect in hindsight.

[King Dragonlord]

Backwards take? Securing the Borders to the West is a viable opinion considering Orlais had an army within spitting distance of it at the time. So For one, i don't fault Loghain for viewing it as a Legitimate threat, which it was. And Two i don't fault Anora for supporting her father in that.

 

Beyond that, the civil war forced Anora and Loghain's hands both, The Armies they assembled were busy quashing rebellion against the Regency until fairly late in the Blight, and by that point Fereldan's normal military was too bloodied to engage the Darkspawn without recovery, not to mention the revival of Arl Eamon forced Loghain's hand to allow a Land's Meet.

 

The Situation involving Loghain and Anora both doesn't seem to constitute Anora's or Loghain's view as being anything but incorrect in hindsight.

 

Oh please. Orlais has been their enemy for years. So when the Darkspawn show up, Loghain decides suddenly their defenses against an enemy they should have already had defenses in place against aren't strong enough? Their hand isn't being forced, they're doing the forcing by ignoring the very obvious immediate threat that Loghain himself was present to see first hand. 

[TEWR]

If the border had been reinforced during the intervening years, border skirmishes would've been commonplace. Eventually this would've led to all-out war between the two nations because of how they'd probably escalate. There's a heavy hatred between the two nations.

[King Dragonlord]

If the border had been reinforced during the intervening years, border skirmishes would've been commonplace. Eventually this would've led to all-out war between the two nations because of how they'd probably escalate. There's a heavy hatred between the two nations.

 

The game makes it quite clear that this is Loghain's paranoia. Absolutely nothing we see in game presents any evidence that they present any real immediate threat and we travel throughout Fereldan. And even if they did, they are not currently running around our countryside savaging towns. What sense does it make to make the people who might attack you a priority over the monsters who are attacking you?

 

But we're getting off in the weeds here. Regardless of how Loghain sees it, Anora shouldn't be so misled. She should be getting reports of the widespread nature of the threat. She even confronts her father a couple of times and it amounts to nothing. Hero or no, it shouldn't be hard for Anora to convince the other nobles to ditch the guy who is ignoring the monsters running roughshod over their territories. 

[SmilesJA]

I wonder what will happen with a queen Anora and an unhardened Allistair?

[Xandurpein]

She could have pushed Loghain into focusing on the Blight if she really wanted to keep her father in play (which would be sensible with his experience). She had supposed clout. She could have undermined Loghain's supporters and reached out to those already aligning against him (they got word multiple times about this. Sure Anora wasn't in the room for some of those scenes but if she wasn't getting similar updates through her own channels, that would only support my point.)

From there it would have been a simple matter to threaten Loghain with public embarrassment and possible loss of his position. He can't do anything about those pesky Orlesians if his status is threatened. 
 
It may be Loghain's place to actually command the army but the Queen should have had ultimate say on the military's priorities. No General or Minister of Defense can simply go off and set defense priorities without their executive's ultimate consent unless they're staging a coup. It simply isn't done.

Anora in NOT the executive power in Fereldan at this time. Anora was Cailan's consort. That means that she ruled in his name. When Cailan dies, she no longer has any formal power anymore. Even if she still retains considerable prestige and personal clout as Cailan's widow, her formal power base is gone, when Cailan dies. It seems this apparently needs to be said over and over; when Cailan dies, Anora is no longer has any executive power anymore. A queen consort is not a vice-president.

Since Cailan has no heir, there's a power vacuum in the Fereldan. That's why Anora even needs a Landsmeet to confer her the right to rule. Loghain seizes on this power vacuum and grabs control of the political power, since he's now the most powerful noble in the realm and the sole surviving Teyrn. Anora is probably not very happy about it, but she doesn't have power to stop him now. The bannorn resists Loghain's power grab, though, but this point Loghain is the one who argues that resistance to his rule must end, so the country can be united against the Blight.

If you think that Anora should not be influenced by the fact that Loghain is her father, you need to consider the importance of blood and family in the medival world. Your first allegiance was to your family, clan and blood. When Anora becomes a widow, her father is now the head of her family. After all, power is inherited, not voted for. Despite that Anora IS involved in undermining Loghain's authority to get rid of him. That's after all exactly what she's doing when she contacts the warden.

[Spicen]

I wonder what will happen with a queen Anora and an unhardened Allistair?

Erm she will have alistair killed, blame it on the wardens and send them to exile. Then she will declare herself regent. However many banns oppose her and start civil war. Then the people in bsn will defend her saying Alistair is an idiot and anora is the sole protector of fereldan. They will also say that anora has the right to destroy the wardens as the wardens could have been helping Orlais to take Fereldan.......
O wait this sounds like Loghain, well she is her dad's daughter right?

[Milan92]

I wonder what will happen with a queen Anora and an unhardened Allistair?

 

Its basically Cailan 2.0. Anora does the ruling, while Alistair rides through the nation to make friends with the common folk.

[Spicen]

Its basically Cailan 2.0. Anora does the ruling.

Yep pretty much what i wanted to say

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh please. Orlais has been their enemy for years. So when the Darkspawn show up, Loghain decides suddenly their defenses against an enemy they should have already had defenses in place against aren't strong enough? Their hand isn't being forced, they're doing the forcing by ignoring the very obvious immediate threat that Loghain himself was present to see first hand. 

 

Orlais has been their enemy for years, but i doubt until the fifth blight ever since the occupation ended, they had sent FOUR legions of Chevaliers to Fereldan along with their support troops. And Defenses in place, You mean the royal army that was obliterated at Ostagar for the most part? Honestly being condescending about a legitimate military threat making an appearance on the Border during the blight is one of the things i find odd about Loghain detractors.

[King Dragonlord]

Anora in NOT the executive power in Fereldan at this time. Anora was Cailan's consort. That means that she ruled in his name. When Cailan dies, she no longer has any formal power anymore. Even if she still retains considerable prestige and personal clout as Cailan's widow, her formal power base is gone, when Cailan dies. It seems this apparently needs to be said over and over; when Cailan dies, Anora is no longer has any executive power anymore. A queen consort is not a vice-president.

Since Cailan has no heir, there's a power vacuum in the Fereldan. That's why Anora even needs a Landsmeet to confer her the right to rule. Loghain seizes on this power vacuum and grabs control of the political power, since he's now the most powerful noble in the realm and the sole surviving Teyrn. Anora is probably not very happy about it, but she doesn't have power to stop him now. The bannorn resists Loghain's power grab, though, but this point Loghain is the one who argues that resistance to his rule must end, so the country can be united against the Blight.

If you think that Anora should not be influenced by the fact that Loghain is her father, you need to consider the importance of blood and family in the medival world. Your first allegiance was to your family, clan and blood. When Anora becomes a widow, her father is now the head of her family. After all, power is inherited, not voted for. Despite that Anora IS involved in undermining Loghain's authority to get rid of him. That's after all exactly what she's doing when she contacts the warden.

Nobody ever refers to her as consort or dowager. And again, a strong Queen who's been "the real one ruling and everybody knows it" for five years should have the clout to seize control in the chaos of Cailan's death. Cailan's dead? No big deal he's just a figurehead, we all know Anora has been the ruler so its business as usual.

 

But I'm glad you bring up the issue of her contacting the Warden to undermine Loghain. Oh wait, if you don't explicitly talk to her about her ruling, she turns around and betrays you again for Loghain. She calls Alistair selfish for wanting Loghain to die for treason but she'll betray you and support the clearly wrong Loghain if it means she gets to keep having playing Queen. She doesn't in fact have the best interests of the nation at heart. She's a complete hypocrite. She just wants power for its own sake. 

[SMTPersona]

I really hope she'll play a big/medium role in Inquisition, seeing as my Warden in DAO was married to her, I'd like to see what happens in that aspect.

[aTigerslunch]

Off with their heads!!   oops wrong queen. 

 

 

sorry wanted to troll

 

I tended to side with her more than oppose her, I like Anora.

[King Dragonlord]

Osatgar wasn't treason. It was a tactical retreat. Cailan was the idiot that got himself killed despite Loghain's repeated protests that he not fight the battle at the front lines. The Tower of Ishal was infested with darkspawn that tunneled through the lower chambers. The beacon was lit up an hour late and by that point the army had broken ranks and Loghain's flank would have resulted in a massacre on the Fereldan side. So instead he retreated saving what little men he had left.

 

Loghain set that up. If you try to go to that tower before the battle, you'll find that Loghains men are in there doing something, and Alistair later comments on the oddness of the darkspawn already being in the tower. I think Loghain wanted to be able to say that he never saw the signal so he could justify his retreat. The Grey Wardens screwed that up for him when they made it to the top and signaled.