238 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Nobody ever refers to her as consort or dowager. And again, a strong Queen who's been "the real one ruling and everybody knows it" for five years should have the clout to seize control in the chaos of Cailan's death. Cailan's dead? No big deal he's just a figurehead, we all know Anora has been the ruler so its business as usual.

 

But I'm glad you bring up the issue of her contacting the Warden to undermine Loghain. Oh wait, if you don't explicitly talk to her about her ruling, she turns around and betrays you again for Loghain. She calls Alistair selfish for wanting Loghain to die for treason but she'll betray you and support the clearly wrong Loghain if it means she gets to keep having playing Queen. She doesn't in fact have the best interests of the nation at heart. She's a complete hypocrite. She just wants power for its own sake. 

Are you even trying to understand how a traditional ruling monarchy works? There's either a ruling King and a Queen consort, or a ruling Queen and a Prince consort. The fact that we don't differentiate between Queen and Queen consort, is because when the words where defined in the early middle ages, any other Queen but a Queen consort was more or less unthinkable.

 

The right to rule came with the birth. It doesn't mean anything if the King is weak. His queen doesn't inherit power when he's dead anyway. And yes, power is inherited, not earned. There are several examples of kings who were both weak and even feeble minded, but when they died, power passed to the his heir, not his Queen, First minister or whoever was the real power behind the throne. There IS no "business as usual", because Anora isn't Cailan's heir. If Cailan had had a son, the prince would automatically had become king when Cailan dies, regardless of Anora.

 

It's true that on a few occasions a really feeble minded king was ousted by some ambitious noble seizing power, but that was in effect a coup. That's incidentally also more or less what started the War of the Roses. When Cailan dies Anora has loses her formal power base, because even though everyone knew she was the real power behind the throne, she was only his consort, so she couldn't inherit his throne. At the same time she wasn't the head of the MacTir family, that was Loghain, so while she had political savvy and skill, she can't seize the throne, even if she wanted to, because she has no military power base and no troops to command at all. That's what Loghain does instead.

 

The only way Anora can become the ruling Queen is if she can convince the Landsmeet to elect her Queen regent. The fact that she may be able to do that is a testament to her political savvy.

 

As for Anora being selfish. I think that's also unfair. She believes that she's the best qualified person to lead Fereldan, and while I think she is to some extent justified for saying so, she's obviously not a very humble person. In fact her biggest character flaw is the arrogance, that makes her see herself as indispensable. That's however not the same as being simply selfish and power hungry. There's no indication that her rule will be a disaster, quite the contrary in fact.

 

She knows she can rule the country better than her husband, and she's used to being the Queen, but when Cailan dies she lose power, because the source of the royal power is in the blood, not the ability. Then she's torn between loyalty to her own blood and the knowledge that her father is going off the deep end. If you think that she's at fault for being loyal to her family, then consider this; what possible excuse could there ever be for a ruling monarchy where the crown is inherited, in a country where loyalty to blood and family is weak?

 

On a final note. I think it's worth noting that one of the most common terms to describe Anora by those who dislike her is to call her a "politician", as if that was a derogatory remark. Apparently many of those who dislike her don't have much faith in the political system either...

[Lady Shayna]

Yeah that makes perfect sense. He killed hundreds of his own men leaving an opening for the Blight and an Orlesian invasion so that he could call a Landsmeet and incite a civil war. Never mind that he's spent his entire adult life as a general charged with Fereldan defense or that he'd give life and limb to protect his country. 

 

You should really take off your bias-tinted glasses.

 

There's very good reason to believe he did exactly that.  Loghain DID plan ahead, and set several pieces in place such that he didn't believe there would be a civil war, NOR did he believe the darkspawn incursion was a real Blight.  The later was stated explicitly in cut scenes ( he was dismayed when he realized the scope of the darkspawn threat.  AS for the civil war, to head it off he:

 

(1) Arrange to have Arl Eamon assassinated.  He hired Jowan to poison him, and only because Connor made a deal with a demon, AND the PC found a legendary artifact was he brought back into play.  Without the Arl, I imagien he didn't think the Landsmeet would decide against him.

 

(2) Made a deal with Uldred that he would support the Circle's independence in return for their support for him.  Didn't work as planned - Uldred fumbled that one.

 

(3) Was selling alienage elves to raise money, presumably so he wouldn't have to lean the on the nobility for higher taxes.

 

By this logic, his point of view before Ostagar was that Caillan ( ego-centric and getting too "friendly" with the Orlesian Empress) was about to invite Orlesian troops into his country, where he assumes they'll just make themselves back at home.  A true Blight hasn't happened for hundreds of years, the Gray Wardens barely have a foothold in the country, and Duncan's keeping the archdemon's existance to himself, so why should he think that's what it is?   So, this is just a (somewhat large) darkspawn incursion, but something they can (and must) repel without foreign troops.  Thus, he plans to arrange for Caillan's death, blame the Gray Wardens for their failure/betrayal to keep foreign Gray Warden troops from being welcomed, become regent for his daughter, use the darkspawn threat to unite the country behind him (even if they are grumbling), come out at the end a hero, and either ride the sentiment into a kingship or remain regent indefinitely (or until his daughter remarries.

 

It's not a bad plan, given what he knew at the time, but things didn't go his way any step of the way.  He realizes things keep getting worse and worse, but his attempts to fix things keep blowing up in his face.

 

The end result is indeed a civil war in the face of a Blight, but that was hardly his plan.

 

Certainly you can draw a different conclusion, but I think the above is a reasonable conclusion as well.

 

Errr...but this thread was about Anora.   Sorry all.  

[The Ascendant]

I always marry her to a hardened Alistair. It allows the Therin dynasty to continue, keeps an experienced and popular ruler in charge, Anora's pragmatism and Alistair's idealism complement each other nicely. It also allows us to ensure she doesn't cause any trouble, keep your friends close and enemies closer. Unless they produce an heir or another of Maric's bastards can be found the Kingdom will descend into chaos.

[Aimi]

It's not a bad plan, given what he knew at the time, but things didn't go his way any step of the way.  He realizes things keep getting worse and worse, but his attempts to fix things keep blowing up in his face.
 
The end result is indeed a civil war in the face of a Blight, but that was hardly his plan.

Meh. It's the same logic that killed the Western Roman Empire, after a fashion. Nobody wanted to destroy it; everybody wanted to be in charge, or at least to improve their position within the imperial hierarchy, and thought that their competitors' plans were awful and would get Rome destroyed.

On this analogy, Loghain is the equivalent of Aetius: a moderately competent commander in some respects who badly weakened Rome through civil wars to secure his own position as master of the West, and who devalued the "barbarian threat" and the safety of Rome's frontiers in order to pursue his power-political agenda. Like Loghain, Aetius has a bizarrely large fanclub owing to the fact that he demonstrated at least some competence in warfare, but also like Loghain, he wasn't that good and he made several grievous mistakes along the way. (Aetius' reputation will forever rest on the Battle of the Campus Mauriacus, much like Loghain's does on the River Dane. Their other failures, especially the strategic ones, are glossed over.) The fact that those mistakes weren't due to him being an actual evil person doesn't make him a better general, politician, or leader.

I also think that Loghain gets too much of a pass for a couple of other things. BioWare's fanbase has an unusual and disturbing proclivity to trust military professionals over political authorities; witness Mass Effect and the way Udina and the Council were portrayed (and discussed) for another example. Despite this glorification of the military, however, they're not terribly interested in the chain of command: the soldier knows best, so the soldier should do what the soldier thinks is right regardless of her orders. (Unless the soldier is serving under the player, in which case WHAT THE HELL HOW DARE YOU HAVE A SEPARATE OPINION DEATH BY MURDER KNIFE.) Loghain's justification for his actions at Ostagar meet both these conditions.

Doesn't really matter, though; no one can tell you what to think about him. I believe that his decision-making was consistently poor and his justifications were ex post facto attempts to polish a turd that he should never have created in the first place, and I've posted about my reasoning at some length (including an entire thread several months ago) that is usually never addressed in any detail. But that's fine. Your mileage may vary.

[Lady Shayna]

Doesn't really matter, though; no one can tell you what to think about him. I believe that his decision-making was consistently poor and his justifications were ex post facto attempts to polish a turd that he should never have created in the first place, and I've posted about my reasoning at some length (including an entire thread several months ago) that is usually never addressed in any detail. But that's fine. Your mileage may vary.

 

For myself, since it wasn't obvious, I'm no fan of Loghain.  I was just explaining why you don't have to assume he's a mustache twirling loon to still think he was wrong.  The above is what I believe he was thinking.

 

Also, since he planned to retreat from Ostagar from before the battle started, and WANTED everyone left on the field to die, it seems perfectly in character for him to sabotage the tower to make sure of the matter. 

[Aimi]

For myself, since it wasn't obvious, I'm no fan of Loghain.  I was just explaining why you don't have to assume he's a mustache twirling loon to still think he was wrong.  The above is what I believe he was thinking.

Oh sure. I was using the plural, unspecific "you" in my post.

[Xandurpein]

For myself, since it wasn't obvious, I'm no fan of Loghain.  I was just explaining why you don't have to assume he's a mustache twirling loon to still think he was wrong.  The above is what I believe he was thinking.
 
Also, since he planned to retreat from Ostagar from before the battle started, and WANTED everyone left on the field to die, it seems perfectly in character for him to sabotage the tower to make sure of the matter.

There's no evidence that he planned to retreat from Ostagar and let the King's army die there. In fact he argues against the whole plan, and tries to get Cailan away from there. Even the David Gaider said Loghain didn't plan to defect from the battle. He planned some form of coup, in case Cailan couldn't "see reason", as Loghain saw it, but he didn't plan to kill the whole royal army. That was, most probably a decision he made, when he saw the size of the darkspawn horde. We can probably argue for ever whether the battle was truly lost anyway then or if he could have won the battle. I don't think there's enough evidence in game to say either way.

[Urazz]

Yeah, there's no proof that Loghain planned Ostagar, just theories with no real proof to back them.  I'm thinking the beacon was lit fairly late into the battle and Loghain made a judgement call based on that.  The other factor determining his call was probably the size of the horde as well.  I don't blame Loghain for Ostagar, but I do blame him for the things he did after that.

[King Dragonlord]

Are you even trying to understand how a traditional ruling monarchy works? There's either a ruling King and a Queen consort, or a ruling Queen and a Prince consort. The fact that we don't differentiate between Queen and Queen consort, is because when the words where defined in the early middle ages, any other Queen but a Queen consort was more or less unthinkable.

 

The right to rule came with the birth. It doesn't mean anything if the King is weak. His queen doesn't inherit power when he's dead anyway. And yes, power is inherited, not earned. There are several examples of kings who were both weak and even feeble minded, but when they died, power passed to the his heir, not his Queen, First minister or whoever was the real power behind the throne. There IS no "business as usual", because Anora isn't Cailan's heir. If Cailan had had a son, the prince would automatically had become king when Cailan dies, regardless of Anora.

 

It's true that on a few occasions a really feeble minded king was ousted by some ambitious noble seizing power, but that was in effect a coup. That's incidentally also more or less what started the War of the Roses. When Cailan dies Anora has loses her formal power base, because even though everyone knew she was the real power behind the throne, she was only his consort, so she couldn't inherit his throne. At the same time she wasn't the head of the MacTir family, that was Loghain, so while she had political savvy and skill, she can't seize the throne, even if she wanted to, because she has no military power base and no troops to command at all. That's what Loghain does instead.

 

The only way Anora can become the ruling Queen is if she can convince the Landsmeet to elect her Queen regent. The fact that she may be able to do that is a testament to her political savvy.

 

As for Anora being selfish. I think that's also unfair. She believes that she's the best qualified person to lead Fereldan, and while I think she is to some extent justified for saying so, she's obviously not a very humble person. In fact her biggest character flaw is the arrogance, that makes her see herself as indispensable. That's however not the same as being simply selfish and power hungry. There's no indication that her rule will be a disaster, quite the contrary in fact.

 

She knows she can rule the country better than her husband, and she's used to being the Queen, but when Cailan dies she lose power, because the source of the royal power is in the blood, not the ability. Then she's torn between loyalty to her own blood and the knowledge that her father is going off the deep end. If you think that she's at fault for being loyal to her family, then consider this; what possible excuse could there ever be for a ruling monarchy where the crown is inherited, in a country where loyalty to blood and family is weak?

 

On a final note. I think it's worth noting that one of the most common terms to describe Anora by those who dislike her is to call her a "politician", as if that was a derogatory remark. Apparently many of those who dislike her don't have much faith in the political system either...

 

To address most of your point, the bloodline is broken. The strongest blood claim is a half common bastard who doesn't want the job. And this is an elective monarchy. 

 

As to her savvy, winning as the incumbent shouldn't be that hard. And yet its possible to beat her.

 

Politician is a derogatory remark. Its certainly one of the filthiest words we're allowed to use on this forum.

 

I didn't exactly call Anora selfish. I said she said Alistair was selfish and that it applies at least as much to her as to him. He's not strictly speaking selfish either. He wants justice for Loghain's betrayal and refuses to abide by anything that doesn't lead to that justice. Yes he's not exactly thinking clearly when he fails to see how making Loghain a Grey Warden might be punishment enough, but thats in the moment.

 

Anora premeditates to betray you and side with the man who has been handling the situation wrong all this time. Even if you present evidence (witness testimony) of him engaging in slave trade, torturing nobles, conscripting a maleficar, and poisoning the Arl, betraying the King and her husband, Even after the accounts she received before and during this Landsmeet of the south being overrun with darkspawn while her father raves about completely immaterial Orlesian plots.

 

No, her power is more important to her. She's far more black than the kettle she's accusing.  

[King Dragonlord]

The Anti-Loghain brigade is a joke. Paint a mustache on him while you're at it. The guy was a general that did his job to the best of his ability and tried his hand at politics and failed miserably. I'm not defending his methods after Ostagar, but up until the first Landsmeet everything he did was right. And if you consider Celene in RTO and Gaspard in TME his so called paranoia was spot on.

He sells slaves (he doesn't even try to deny it). And we don't even have the excuse of "well it was ye olden times" because Fereldan is supposedly proudly anti-slave. This is a man who fought for freedom from oppression treating people like property. 

 

Mustache twirling? No. But he is a villain. Even if Orlais is just waiting for an opportunity, how paranoid do you have to be to rave about Orlesians when everyone else is recounting real stories of bannorns already lost to darkspawn?.

[King Dragonlord]

Yeah that makes perfect sense. He killed hundreds of his own men leaving an opening for the Blight and an Orlesian invasion so that he could call a Landsmeet and incite a civil war. Never mind that he's spent his entire adult life as a general charged with Fereldan defense or that he'd give life and limb to protect his country. 

 

You should really take off your bias-tinted glasses.

He sacrificed thousands of men to preserve his force. Whats a few dozen more? 

 

Now I'll admit, the evidence certainly is far from ironclad but its certainly a theory that fits. He didn't support the attack, didn't trust the Grey Wardens, he made this much known before hand. It was his men in that tower. He didn't want Grey Wardens sent for that, now why was that?

 

And this fits the profile of a man who will sell slaves and use a blood mage to poison the arl. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I personally see Anora as a character who is both pragmatic and compassionate.

 

She is pragmatic in the sense that she wishes to secure her position as the Queen of Ferelden because she believes she is the best candidate for the job.

 

Personally, apart from female Cousland, I don't think there is a better candidate for that position. We do not see any other Teyrna or Arlessa, apart from female Cousland and her mother, Eleanor Cousland, who sadly dies, to be as capable or more capable than Anora is. 

 

So what Anora says about her merit, legitimacy is actually true.

 

Yet she is compassionate, we see that in the last moments of Loghain's death. She does not appear to be compassionate to the average person because of her loveless marriage, not-very-competent-or-faithful husband, etc. That and her upbringing. I assume if you are bought up by a man like Loghain being all touchy-feely is not going to be your forte. 

 

Did no one marry their male Couslands to her ? My male Couslands did.

 

I mean, Ferelden is best off with male Cousland and Anora ruling. 

 

Obviously there is Alistair but you have to harden him to make him even remotely competent. I did not do it because I did not want Alistair to be Eamon's puppet any longer and decided he should choose what he wants to do with his life. 

 

My Cousland on the other hand wanted to prove himself, to restore the family honor and make his parents proud. He is also quite capable, as we see in the prologue with him being left in charge of the castle. Then there is the fact he becomes the Warden which means he is the one responsible for the alliance brokering and army building. 

 

Realistically speaking, on merit alone, male Cousland is much better off, even than hardened Alistair to be king. Couple that with Anora's pragmatism you have a good match than the Bannorns or Eamon cannot mess around with. 

[Puppy Love]

I'm not sure if male Cousland was always better.  I think it changed a bit depending on your character but I'm not sure.  My one and only male full play through I played a Cousland who was very much about power and success by any means necessary.  When I married Anora I remember the blurb mentioning something about our constantly competing for power.  To which I was very happy because it so fit what I planned to set in motion and fit my character well.  Ahh Robaer, you were fun to play.

[Jax Sparrow]

Anora's role probably has mostly to do with your 'Warden's choices in Origins, Awakening, and the DLCs.  I mean, did you leave her sole ruler? Joint-Rule? did the Warden slip into the mirror universe with Morrigan in the Witch of the Wild's DLC?  Maybe other choices effect it too.

 

I hope they release a DLC that allows the Inquisitor to romance a single Queen Anora that is sole ruler of Ferelden.  A single decade leaves her still rather young and capable of bearing many healthy children/heirs.

 

I actually started an Inquisitor save file with a DAKeep import with a single Queen Anora, for that dream alone.  So I hope I it gets some onscreen airtime instead of just residing in my head.

[Jax Sparrow]

Mine did as well several times.  Though I believe the Warden's success with ruling Ferelden with Anora has a lot to do with his Cunning attribute.  I believe the words she uses at the landsmeet when addressing my Cousland changes but maybe that was just a mod using buried soundfiles.

 

I adore, admire, and love the character Anora.

 

I felt telling crybaby Alistair to go drink away his harsh life, is the best future for him.  Handing someone with that kind of mental baggage power? Bad Idea IMHO.  Besides, he has Goldanna to romance and take care of.

... Did no one marry their male Couslands to her ? My male Couslands did...

[Deanna]

Who is this Queen Anora you speak of? My Cousland is the Queen of Ferelden

[Augustei]

Who is this Queen Anora you speak of? My Cousland is the Queen of Ferelden

And she and her husband shall forever be known as Usurper.
All must bow to the one true Queen Anora

[TEWR]

The Anti-Loghain brigade is a joke. Paint a mustache on him while you're at it. The guy was a general that did his job to the best of his ability and tried his hand at politics and failed miserably. I'm not defending his methods after Ostagar, but up until the first Landsmeet everything he did was right. And if you consider Celene in RTO and Gaspard in TME his so called paranoia was spot on.

 

I apparently already liked this months ago.

 

Shame I can't like it a thousand times more.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I used to have a Cousland marry Anora save but it never made it to any of my canon playthroughs. Shame cause I really liked the 0:56 seconds we saw of Anora this game. 

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I don't have a memeworthy image, but NECROPOST!!

This has certainly been asked before, but I have it on my mind right now. Do you honestly believe that Loghain would have allowed Howe to murder his own daughter? There seems to be quite a bit of love between the father and daughter, and besides... Anora was his puppet queen, who was very popular with the common folk, so it seems like it'd be career suicide for Loghain to kill her.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't have a memeworthy image, but NECROPOST!!

This has certainly been asked before, but I have it on my mind right now. Do you honestly believe that Loghain would have allowed Howe to murder his own daughter? There seems to be quite a bit of love between the father and daughter, and besides... Anora was his puppet queen, who was very popular with the common folk, so it seems like it'd be career suicide for Loghain to kill her.

Did you plan to revive this thread exactly a year to the day after the last post? 

 

As for your question, no. His whole betrayal of Cailan was partly because of his daughter, since Cailan was going to divorce her and marry Empress Celene. Everything he did he did for her and Ferelden. 

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Did you plan to revive this thread exactly a year to the day after the last post?

As for your question, no. His whole betrayal of Cailan was partly because of his daughter, since Cailan was going to divorce her and marry Empress Celene. Everything he did he did for her and Ferelden.

The date was completely unplanned. lol

[GoldenGail3]

....wow I had no idea such a thread existed, lol.