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My eternal love of Tevinter


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#226
TheKomandorShepard

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I don't really see the point in arguing with you. You're not going to read these posts, suddenly start feeling empathy towards other people, and grow a moral compass. But, maybe I can explain what it's like for the rest of us.

 

It's not just understanding how the victim feels. Empathy tends to have a connotation towards sharing how the victim would feel. Non-psychopaths would not want to inflict pain on another person, because they would, in a way, feel that pain as well. That is why most people find war horrifying. And that is why most people have morals that coincide with the "Golden Rule." The reason why some non-psychopaths do end up killing other people is that it can be overridden by hate, by repression, by viewing groups of people as "others."

 

To you, empathy probably sounds like a bad thing, a weakness. But it is also why we enjoy helping each other. We can share in each others' joy as well as pain. I wouldn't have any other way.

 

Wait so does that mean that most of humans are psychopaths because pretty much most humans does that? ;)



#227
KainD

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Wait so does that mean that most of humans are psychopaths because pretty much most humans does that? ;)

 

Nah, as long as they are ''others'' or you hate them it's ok.



#228
Zatche

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I do feel for other people, I have close friends and family members that I care about, that doesn't include every single random person. If it's not a person close to me, I couldn't care less about how they feel, they are all ''others'', and obviously if I want to hurt someone it is because I hate them. 

 

There's the difference between us. And that's why we're not going to get anywhere talking in circles, with us saying "war is horrifying, murder is wrong" and you saying "no, it's not."



#229
Zatche

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Nah, as long as they are ''others'' or you hate them it's ok.

 

I wasn't saying I think it's okay, just that it happens.



#230
KainD

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There's the difference between us. And that's why we're not going to get anywhere talking in circles, with us saying "war is horrifying, murder is wrong" and you saying "no, it's not."

 

Caring about how everyone feels is very.. self-destructive. Not only do you multiply your pain with everybodies problems, that you can't fix, because everybody can't be happy living together, as everyone is different. But you can't even deal efficiently with people that pose direct threat to you. 


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#231
Texhnolyze101

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Can I destroy it? 

 

Only if I can destroy orlais.



#232
Texhnolyze101

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Why would you want to destroy Tevinter?

It is now serving the perfect role. Human shield between the Qunari and the more worthy nations of Thedas.

 

Just let the Tevinters die to preserve the way of life of the descendants of the rebels that split the Imperium apart. There is no better punishment.

 

That bolded part made me lol.


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#233
CrazyGobstopper

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I don't understand, in what way is Dorian not a Tevinter citizen or a real magister? Just because he isn't acting like all the magisters in previous games?

To be a Tevinter magister, one must be a member of the Magisterium, the Imperium's legislature. Dorian was never a member of the Magisterium, therefore he is not a magister. Since he has been ostracized from Tevinter society due to his views, he may even have been stripped of his citizenship (though obviously we won't know that unless it's addressed in DAI). Either way, he is still a mage and a Tevinter by background, but he has never been a magister.



#234
Zatche

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Caring about how everyone feels is very.. self-destructive. Not only do you multiply your pain with everybodies problems, that you can't fix, because everybody can't be happy living together, as everyone is different. But you can't even deal efficiently with people that pose direct threat to you. 

 

And I think I can bring this back on topic...sort of.

 

It's not totally self-destructive, because we also share each other's joy. But at any rate, no, you can't fix everything, not everyone will end up living happily together, and you do have deal with people that pose a threat. In order to deal with this, you have to make difficult moral decisions.

 

Like say, what if we're faced with a choice of taking help from an evil Tevinter slaver and facing some sort of consequence? For you this decision would be easy. For me, this decision would be difficult. These are the choices I like having to make in video games, because they are challenging. And that's why I would like a game set in Tevinter. It has potential for having to make morally grey choices.



#235
KainD

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Exactly like Orlais except without the stupid and annoying accents and mages being the ones in control.

 

Orlais doesn't have official slavery though. 



#236
KainD

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And I think I can bring this back on topic...sort of.

 

It's not totally self-destructive, because we also share each other's joy. But at any rate, no, you can't fix everything, not everyone will end up living happily together, and you do have deal with people that pose a threat. In order to deal with this, you have to make difficult moral decisions.

 

Like say, what if we're faced with a choice of taking help from an evil Tevinter slaver and facing some sort of consequence? For you this decision would be easy. For me, this decision would be difficult. These are the choices I like having to make in video games, because they are challenging. And that's why I would like a game set in Tevinter. It has potential for having to make morally grey choices.

 

Yeah, don't think I want to make life more difficult than it already is with some difficult moral choices.. 

 

Other than that, I would love a game set in Tevinter as long as Bioware isn't going to stuff morals down my throat about slavery and magocracy being bad, and not going to involve the downfall of the above by my hand in the main plot. 



#237
Roamingmachine

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And I think I can bring this back on topic...sort of.
 
It's not totally self-destructive, because we also share each other's joy. But at any rate, no, you can't fix everything, not everyone will end up living happily together, and you do have deal with people that pose a threat. In order to deal with this, you have to make difficult moral decisions.
 
Like say, what if we're faced with a choice of taking help from an evil Tevinter slaver and facing some sort of consequence? For you this decision would be easy. For me, this decision would be difficult. These are the choices I like having to make in video games, because they are challenging. And that's why I would like a game set in Tevinter. It has potential for having to make morally grey choices.


Here's where the fun part of morality makes its entrance. I'm bit of an abomination by modern standards. I have no problem solving a situation with violence if it is the most prudent choice. In real life, violence and the threat of it are my tools in trade and my only concern is how I justify them to satisfy the letter of the law. I have compassion, just not to the people who get in the way. But slavers? Slavers burn without exception. No mercy, no trial no negotiation if I ever have my way. To me, there is nothing gray in it. Anyone who accepts the help of a slaver accepts the guilt of the slaver. Ain't morality fun? ;)

#238
Guest_Morrigan_*

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I have no problem solving a situation with violence if it is the most prudent choice. In real life, violence and the threat of it are my tools in trade and my only concern is how I justify them to satisfy the letter of the law.

 

You, my friend, are one f*cked up individual. This thread is starting to give me the impression that DA's fanbase consists thugs and brutes.



#239
KainD

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You, my friend, are one f*cked up individual. This thread is starting to give me the impression that DA's fanbase consists thugs and brutes.

 

Fanbase? Thugs and brutes.. that are part of the LGBT.. that take philosophy courses.. and like dating sims. 

DA fanbase is pretty broad.  ;)


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#240
Roamingmachine

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You, my friend, are one f*cked up individual. This thread is starting to give me the impression that DA's fanbase consists thugs and brutes.

Like I said, an abomination by modern standards ;) Mind you, that sentence might give the wrong impression as I meant in the context of my real life job. But I'm wholly unapologetic about it *shrugs*

#241
Zatche

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Here's where the fun part of morality makes its entrance. I'm bit of an abomination by modern standards. I have no problem solving a situation with violence if it is the most prudent choice. In real life, violence and the threat of it are my tools in trade and my only concern is how I justify them to satisfy the letter of the law. I have compassion, just not to the people who get in the way. But slavers? Slavers burn without exception. No mercy, no trial no negotiation if I ever have my way. To me, there is nothing gray in it. Anyone who accepts the help of a slaver accepts the guilt of the slaver. Ain't morality fun? ;)

 

I've seen that movie. It was great. Django rides away into the sunset with Hilde. But, in my vague, hypothetical situation, that's not an option. I think the moral choices we might have to make would be more interesting if the slavers hold all the cards. What if they actually hold the key to fighting something even worse?



#242
Roamingmachine

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I've seen that movie. It was great. Django rides away into the sunset with Hilde. But, in my vague, hypothetical situation, that's not an option. I think the moral choices we might have to make would be more interesting if the slavers hold all the cards. What if they actually hold the key to fighting something even worse?


The question is, what is worse? In my view slavery in any form is the ultimate crime deserving the ultimate penalty for all implicated without exception. The thing with moral arguments is that they cannot be reasoned with. Either you follow your morals or you don't. The reasonable person WILL take in to account things like practicality and cost/benefit but then they wont' be making a moral judgement but a practical one. Neither are, in themselves, bad choices. The only truly bad one is not to take a stance at all (statement: aaapathy iiis deaaath).

#243
Zatche

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The question is, what is worse? In my view slavery in any form is the ultimate crime deserving the ultimate penalty for all implicated without exception. The thing with moral arguments is that they cannot be reasoned with. Either you follow your morals or you don't. The reasonable person WILL take in to account things like practicality and cost/benefit but then they wont' be making a moral judgement but a practical one. Neither are, in themselves, bad choices. The only truly bad one is not to take a stance at all (statement: aaapathy iiis deaaath).

 

Well, there are situations where this applies. If the consequence of not appeasing Tevinter slavers only applies to you, this would be the case. But on the other hand, the consequence could be (and I'm just trying to illustrate a concept rather than present an actually well written and fleshed out idea) other people dieing, in which case either judgement would be a moral one.



#244
Guest_Morrigan_*

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Like I said, an abomination by modern standards ;) Mind you, that sentence might give the wrong impression as I meant in the context of my real life job. But I'm wholly unapologetic about it *shrugs*

 

What is your real life job? The only occupation that I can think of which requires the use of violence, besides being a soldier, is serving in the police force.

 

Doesn't exactly give me fuzzy feelings knowing that there's another cop out there who relishes using violence against others.



#245
Chron0id

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Thread title made me consider writing a parody song for Smashing Pumpkin's My Love is Winter.  It would be called...

 

My Love Tevinter


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#246
Dabrikishaw

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My, we certainly decided to go places here.


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#247
Roamingmachine

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What is your real life job? The only occupation that I can think of which requires the use of violence, besides being a soldier, is serving in the police force.
 
Doesn't exactly give me fuzzy feelings knowing that there's another cop out there who relishes using violence against others.

I have no problem solving a situation with violence if it is the most prudent choice.


That does not imply relishing. The fact that I concern myself with the letter of the law on my job (private security for the more difficult places) is the only sensible attitude if you want to get the job done as compassion can escalate the situation (you appear weak) or it can lead to serious injury or death for you if the situation already has escalated. Once it's go time, you can't hesitate. Violence is simply a tool.



#248
Ieldra

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To be a Tevinter magister, one must be a member of the Magisterium, the Imperium's legislature. Dorian was never a member of the Magisterium, therefore he is not a magister. Since he has been ostracized from Tevinter society due to his views, he may even have been stripped of his citizenship (though obviously we won't know that unless it's addressed in DAI). Either way, he is still a mage and a Tevinter by background, but he has never been a magister.

I haven't followed the info about him closely. Is he really ostracized? Or did he just leave?

 

(No argument about his not being a magister, except that the title is used more broadly outside of Tevinter where it basically means "member of the Tevinter ruling class". It's a plausible shorthand since outside of Tevinter the distinction is largely irrelevant)



#249
Das Tentakel

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Regarding the whole morality issue, I think it’s pretty clear that from both a modern western and an Andrastian perspective, particularly a Ferelden Andrastian point of view, both slavery and blood magic / blood sacrifice are immoral.
Players are assumed to automatically take a ‘modern’ moral attitude, and the setting enables and encourages this as well. Even if your character is not a practising Andrastian 'in your mind', he or she is likely to have the same or very similar moral attitudes. Neither the Qun nor the Dwarves seem to practise or condone blood magic or slavery.

Or in other words: Both from our modern western point of view AND most Thedosian points of view, Tevinter, or at least its ruling elite and socio-political system, are morally repugnant.
Exceptions like Dorian allow both Bio and some of the pro-Tevinter fans to claim that the rulers and their system, not the people and their culture, are effectively evil. Which saves everybody from the potential embarrassment that the ‘most decent’ country from our point of view is ‘White America with swords’ aka almost lily-white Ferelden, and the most evil ‘Graeco-Italian Mediterranean-inspired and vaguely brown’ Tevinter.

The existence of this moral dualism in the setting itself – modern western morality in Andrastian and Ferelden guise and an extreme opposite in Tevinter – makes it very difficult to see the latter as a ‘normal’ society. While the Qunari and the Dwarven societies and ideologies have some objectionable characteristics, none of them offend our modern sensibilities as much.

This is very different from a setting where all societies are thoroughly flawed from our modern western point of view, but which mostly avoid behavioural extremes (medieval Eurasia), or where all engage in them to some extent (ancient Eurasia, Precolumbian America).

A game in a setting like Precolumbian Mexico, or a fantasy setting derived from it, would mean that slavery and human sacrifice are a general fact of life, and these would lose much or even all of their modern moral ‘load’. I don’t know if anyone here has read the novel The Luck of Huemac, by Daniel Peters? The main character is a thoroughly moral and likeable person, but acts and thinks in the context of his society. While he is not a fanatic or a particularly bloodthirsty person (he is rather ‘moderate’, which helps the reader empathize with him), he does fully participate in his culture and society, including the sacrifice and cannibalism.

Likewise, in HBO’s Rome, the main characters are likeable and basically decent, but they also clearly operate along different moral guidelines that differ considerably from ours. Lucius Vorenus, at least in season I, is fairly rigidly honour-bound and is clearly a ‘moral guy’ (partially even from our modern western POV), but he also has a bunch of Gaulish captives he intends to sell into slavery. When they sicken and die and the only survivor is a little boy, he is greatly distraught. Not because his captives died, but because he basically lost the income from his share in the Roman war booty. Likewise, he doesn’t bat an eye when he has to torture Gaulish captives to extract information. His moral system does not include soft-heartedness towards ‘barbarian’ enemies.

You’ll see none of this in Dragon Age; it simply is not that kind of setting, nor is BioWare willing to go there. I think that’s perfectly understandable, they aim for a large, broad audience and their games are played by teenagers (regardless of rating) as well as grizzled veterans. They aren’t ‘family shows’, but they are not HBO territory either. They probably come closest to movies and tv series intended for teenage / adult audiences, with plenty of not-too-realistic violence and maybe a sideboob or two.


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#250
Pierce Miller

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Blood magic is really just another form of magic, using it for evil makes the user evil not the magic. On the issue of slavery, it is in fact necessary for the survival of Tevinter so I can see why they would keep it around.