366 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I disagree entirely. There is right and wrong. Good and bad. For example, raping someone is wrong and bad. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. 

Except that all judgment is in our minds, and only there. There exists no attribute "bad" or "good" you could attach to anything, so nothing is ever intrinsically good or bad. The closest you come to such is that certain things are regarded as good or bad by a great majority of humans. There are certain common judgments I wouldn't question as being common enough to justify using attributition as a shorthand, but it's still incorrect. To regard something as good or bad requires a value system, and the universe hasn't got one built-in.

[renfrees]

Except that all judgment is in our minds, and only there. There exists no attribute "bad" or "good" you could attach to anything, so nothing is ever intrinsically good or bad. The closest you come to such is that certain things are regarded as good or bad by a great majority of humans. There are certain common judgments I wouldn't question as being common enough to justify using attributition as a shorthand, but it's still incorrect. To regard something as good or bad requires a value system, and the universe hasn't got one built-in.

I'd like to see how'd you talk your way out of rape, not being intrinsically bad, for example. Genuinely curious, maybe you'd open me a whole new world.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'd like to see how'd you talk your way out of rape, not being intrinsically bad, for example. Genuinely curious, maybe you'd open me a whole new world.

Well if you don't see it as bad it isn't all it is in your mind what is morally wrong or right. 

[Medhia_Nox]

I hope for everyone to receive the extreme result of the morality they claim to embrace.

[Ieldra]

I'd like to see how'd you talk your way out of rape, not being intrinsically bad, for example. Genuinely curious, maybe you'd open me a whole new world.

I won't do that, because I actually see it as horrible. But note how I express that. It's all me making that judgment, there's nothing "intrinsic" about it, and the fact that I'm unlikely to ever personally meet anyone who thinks differently does not change that no judgment is ever an intrinsic attribute of an action. Even if absolutely every human on earth thought exactly the same about some action, it's still a judgment made within the minds of humans and not an instrinsic part of the act.

 

Please note that I am not defending anything, nor am I saying that people shouldn't judge anything, or that all judgments are equal. I am arguing a meta-ethical position regarding the question "where does our morality come from", and the answer which corresponds best to our knowledge of the world is "It is in our minds". Since I do have a value system, I have my own preferences, and since I am human, I have some preferences common and appropriate (says my value system) to being a member of a social species. I will also defend my value systems and fight people who cross certain lines because it is part of who I am. I just don't delude myself into thinking these are in any way objective.

[renfrees]

Well if you don't see it as bad it isn't all it is in your mind what is morally wrong or right. 

This whole debate starts to remind me of this sentence: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." © Edmund Burke

[TheKomandorShepard]

This whole debate starts to remind me of this sentence: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." © Edmund Burke

There is no good man in first place who is hero for you may be villain for someone else.

[Samahl]

What is the utility of moral relativism though? Obviously, moral systems have worth because humanity attaches worth to them. Shouldn't the argument be centered on which morals humans should espouse*, not whether they matter outside of subjective human perception? We are all human after all.

 

* Well, not this particular argument, because it's way off topic, but generally speaking.

[Sir DeLoria]

Except that all judgment is in our minds, and only there. There exists no attribute "bad" or "good" you could attach to anything, so nothing is ever intrinsically good or bad. The closest you come to such is that certain things are regarded as good or bad by a great majority of humans. There are certain common judgments I wouldn't question as being common enough to justify using attributition as a shorthand, but it's still incorrect. To regard something as good or bad requires a value system, and the universe hasn't got one built-in.

I disagree, there were quite a few philosophers that believed conventional morals were part of the human subconscious and that there is a clear distinction between right and wrong(moral absolutism à la Kant).

What you're saying is also just a theory.

[Ieldra]

What is the utility of moral relativism though? Obviously, moral systems have worth because humanity attaches worth to them. Shouldn't the argument be centered on which morals humans should espouse*, not whether they matter outside of subjective human perception? We are all human after all.

 

* Well, not this particular argument, because it's way off topic, but generally speaking.

If you're trying to answer questions about the world, utility is irrelevant. The question of where our morality comes from is not itself a moral one. That's what people tend to forget - or to deliberately ignore, as if a descriptive account of how things are had any necessary influence at all on how we think things should be. That I know where my judgments are coming from is unlikely to change any of them. It may make me a little less self-righteous about things, but that's a good thing (says my value system). 

 

@DeLoria:

There is nothing "just just" about being a theory. A theory is a set of statements backed up by evidence and logic, our best-possible approximation to understanding of parts of the world we live in. There are of course competing theories about this, some of which are more convincing than others.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Except that all judgment is in our minds, and only there. There exists no attribute "bad" or "good" you could attach to anything, so nothing is ever intrinsically good or bad. The closest you come to such is that certain things are regarded as good or bad by a great majority of humans. There are certain common judgments I wouldn't question as being common enough to justify using attributition as a shorthand, but it's still incorrect. To regard something as good or bad requires a value system, and the universe hasn't got one built-in.

You only THINK it is all in your mind. But just because something is subjective does not excuse the action. Now granted, the existence of "good" and "bad" would also imply the existence of some universal truth, which may or may not exist. But just because you THINK that it doesn't, doesn't make you right. Moral relativism is all fine and dandy, but moral absolutism also exist.

[Asdrubael Vect]

like to see more about Tevinter(and Nevarra) but i do not like Dorian and think that this venatory and exile with shame would be no more than whiny and lying duplicitous b*tch  Fenris

 

i am not take Dorian seriusly and for me he is a clown who wanted to look "fabulous"(с) and he is no more Tevinter citizen than some scum criminals-mercenarys in Kirkwal...i and many waited for a real magister and Tevinter citizen but get another sh*t like Fenris

[Pierce Miller]

like to see more about Tevinter(and Nevarra) but i do not like Dorian and think that this venatory and exile with shame would be no more than whiny and lying duplicitous b*tch  Fenris

 

i am not take Dorian seriusly and for me he is a clown who wanted to look "fabulous"(с) and he is no more Tevinter citizen than some scum criminals-mercenarys in Kirkwal...i and many waited for a real magister and Tevinter citizen but get another sh*t like Fenris

No one is as bad as Fenris, it's a literal impossibility

[Asdrubael Vect]

No one is as bad as Fenris, it's a literal impossibility

i know who is far worst than Fenris

 

Cole-the worst thing ever, even justice is not that bad

[Pierce Miller]

Cole-the worst thing ever, even justice is not that bad

He attacked Lambert, that makes him a-okay in my book

[Asdrubael Vect]

He attacked Lambert, that makes him a-okay in my book

everyone will attack lamber(actually another "Tevinter" sh*t) this is not make him or evageline  better(actually many forgets that she was a Templar officer and  she was do bad stuff even if it was not mention..and she agree to follow and kill mages who even have divine order..and damn Wynn was a hero of blight)

 

Cole attack lambert only because of Rhys

[renfrees]

like to see more about Tevinter(and Nevarra) but i do not like Dorian and think that this venatory and exile with shame would be no more than whiny and lying duplicitous b*tch  Fenris

 

i am not take Dorian seriusly and for me he is a clown who wanted to look "fabulous"(с) and he is no more Tevinter citizen than some scum criminals-mercenarys in Kirkwal...i and many waited for a real magister and Tevinter citizen but get another sh*t like Fenris

Many? And what precisely were you waiting for? What did you want to know firsthand from a 'real' magister? To prove - what point, exactly?

[Kimberly]

like to see more about Tevinter(and Nevarra) but i do not like Dorian and think that this venatory and exile with shame would be no more than whiny and lying duplicitous b*tch  Fenris
 
i am not take Dorian seriusly and for me he is a clown who wanted to look "fabulous"(с) and he is no more Tevinter citizen than some scum criminals-mercenarys in Kirkwal...i and many waited for a real magister and Tevinter citizen but get another sh*t like Fenris

I don't understand, in what way is Dorian not a Tevinter citizen or a real magister? Just because he isn't acting like all the magisters in previous games? Evil Slaving blood magic using D-bags. That's not the type of person that I or any of the companions would want on the team.

[Pierce Miller]

Kimberly, on 27 Jul 2014 - 2:13 PM, said:

I don't understand, in what way is Dorian not a Tevinter citizen or a real magister? Just because he isn't acting like all the magisters in previous games? Evil Slaving blood magic using D-bags. That's not the type of person that I or any of the companions would want on the team.

He isn't a magister, He's altus.

[Kimberly]

He isn't a magister, He's altus.

How does being an Altus make him not a Tevinter citizen? I checked wiki, you can't be a magister?

From wiki:

Altus mages are reckoned to be descendents of the dreamers or magisters who possessed the ability to speak to the Old Gods in the Fade. The Old Gods are no longer objects of worship but the descendents of these powerful mages are still held in esteem and often are the most high-ranking mages in the Imperium; indeed the majority of magisters are Altus. Interestingly, there was a time in which these Altus mages were scorned for their seeming part in creating the Blights as the corruption of the Golden City transformed these mages into the first darkspawn. As a result, many such mages were slain during the period of Transfiguration when the Imperium became Andrastian. Since then, the Altus mages have returned to the upper echelon of Tevinter society.[3]

[Samahl]

If you're trying to answer questions about the world, utility is irrelevant. The question of where our morality comes from is not itself a moral one. That's what people tend to forget - or to deliberately ignore, as if a descriptive account of how things are had any necessary influence at all on how we think things should be. That I know where my judgments are coming from is unlikely to change any of them. It may make me a little less self-righteous about things, but that's a good thing (says my value system). 

 

But we're not trying to answer that question. We're trying to figure out if, from a human perspective, crimes such as slavery and rape are wrong. The fact that morality only exists within the scope of humanity is a red herring.

[General TSAR]

Good for you. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

He isn't a magister, He's altus

Gaider said second class so he was mistaken about Altus(he was not remember how they called so he says altus) family...Dorian is from Laetan family, he never was a magister and he was exiled with shame..and as we see he would be with Venatory fanatics 

[TheKomandorShepard]

But we're not trying to answer that question. We're trying to figure out if, from a human perspective, crimes such as slavery and rape are wrong. The fact that morality only exists within the scope of humanity is a red herring.

Humans are one who rape and enslave so well i would argue if it is wrong from human perspective perhaps from victim perspective or certain societes it is wrong but not by humans viewpoint.

[Asdrubael Vect]

I don't understand, in what way is Dorian not a Tevinter citizen or a real magister? Just because he isn't acting like all the magisters in previous games? Evil Slaving blood magic using D-bags. That's not the type of person that I or any of the companions would want on the team.

what magisters in previus games?...

 

about Tevinters, we see only

 

Caladrius-male human mage criminal(by Tevnter laws and by them Caladrius would be executed for illegal slavery) slave merchant....he was not a evil just a merchant who deal with Loghatin and Howe and he was one of the most reasonable "enemys"

 

Devera-elf non-mage female who was a Imperium Cirlce servant(we does not know what this title mean but as we can understand it mean something for non-nobles of Tevinter) who is a criminal and slave merchant

 

 

Danarius-male elf-blooded human mage, the first magister what we see, who was from Seheron and who loose all what he have because of Qunari  and for 10 years pays Free Marshes criminals- mercenarys and slavehunters(yes who is by nationality is mostly Tevinters) for catching his lover and bodyguard Fenris

 

Hadriana-female human mage Danarius aprentice, keep her words like any Tevinters, even criminals...the only what we really know is that she send mercenarys and kill some slaves(even orana says that she does not want to do this and this was hard for her) because of Fenris and hawke actions of killing all of her mens so she need protection

 

Varania-female elf mage, second Danarius aprentice, was a good elf girl who want a good life and help Dananrius to return his lover and bodyguard who was a reason why more than 10 years  she with her mother was send from Seheron to continent and have a very hard and poor life

 

Orana-female elf kitchen slave from Tevinter who can live in Hawke mancion or become prostitute in blooming rose, she is kind, educated and can play on lute...she does not really say something only some about Hadrianna

 

 

and thats all(exept some unnamed guys(elfs/humans/mages) who was a criminals slavers/bodyguards and Tevinters only by nationality) what we see in 2 games

 

 

and in comics we see

 

lord Devon-male Tevinter non-mage noble who is(at least he was) a pirate(corsair) in Armada and a criminal slave trader(who would be executed by Tevinters laws for illegal slavery)

 

Aurelian Titus-male mage, second magister what we see, who is without a official lands, family, riches(even a senat member does know nothing about him)..and he is a  secret dragon worchiper(Tevinters execute those since Hessarian) who have a base on Seheron with his cultists..and we does not know anything about him, exept that he was a good mage, reaver  and dealer who make Antivan merchant prince from Antiva city into a pet who do all dirty job exept some

 

Maevetanis-male(secretly, he considerate and try to show himself as female and even had a dwarf husband who was a Varrick cousin) human mage, third magister what we see and for some reason he is a member of senat(i think he became one because of his dwarven husband, because dwarves is the part of senat) who do some political sh*t with Alister and Varric and only that Titus was show himself as dragon worshiper save him

 

 

so we only have 3 magisters...2 of them from some mostly abandored Tevinter territories like Seheron, and they are really criminals who by Tevinter laws would be executed

 

and 1 is Mae who is not considerate good-acceptable by Tevinter society and if someone would know the truth about him, so he loose his titles and would be exiled(i think he woud rather be executed because of his rank) with much more shame than Dorian was