293 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Let me repeat, at that particular moment in time, what are you going to do?   Leliana effectively kills someone who is already dead but being kept unnaturally alive while you were in negotiations with his Dad.   Well this is something you can deal with later.    Right then, at that moment, even if it is as a result of her actions, you are under attack.    I suppose you could do what Gaspard does in ME when an ally breaks truce and simply kill her on the spot, but not only will this be distracting you from the real problem at hand but will be reducing your forces by one.  I doubt if that will mollify Alexius.   It is a matter of priorities and when dealing with an angry mage, with the prospect of large numbers of demons on the horizon, you really need all the help you can get.

 

Personally this problem would not arise since I would have told her to end it quickly anyway.

[Basement Cat]

Inquisitor: You are grounded, missy!

 

Seriously though, I would be more upset about her actions causing a fight than being desobedience in my case. 

[Chari]

Inquisition is inq organization so his soldiers and advisors are his/her subordinates or at least that what they said us.Pretty much if they don't want obey orders of main leader there should be option to tell them to leave i don't rly see point in subordinates that don't listen if i can't do that pretty much i have no power whatsoever.

When the whole power belongs to one person it is an absolute monarchy
Prove that the Inquisitor is royal, otherwise, accept that people don't owe you anything and your partners have minds and will of their own

[Jazzpha]

I'm operating under the assumption that yeah, my comrades in arms will have their own thoughts, opinions and goals. That's cool. Otherwise they'd be robots.

 

But if their own personal goals directly undermine the overall goal of the Inquisition itself, then we're gonna have ourselves a failure to communicate.

 

My hope is, though, that everyone I'm working with will be open-minded enough to realize that closing up the big, demon-spawning hole in the sky is a little more important than any individual goals-- unless we get a few hours off here or there to go talk to some dudes in a bar.

[Chari]

I'm operating under the assumption that yeah, my comrades in arms will have their own thoughts, opinions and goals. That's cool. Otherwise they'd be robots.

But if their own personal goals directly undermine the overall goal of the Inquisition itself, then we're gonna have ourselves a failure to communicate.

My hope is, though, that everyone I'm working with will be open-minded enough to realize that closing up the big, demon-spawning hole in the sky is a little more important than any individual goals-- unless we get a few hours off here or there to go talk to some dudes in a bar.

And who says that the inquisitor knows the best course of actions?
At the beginning we are no one, really. We have to prove to be a worthy leader to follow
Sides Alexius had already endangered the whole team, castle and probably city

[TheKomandorShepard]

When the whole power belongs to one person it is an absolute monarchy
Prove that the Inquisitor is royal, otherwise, accept that people don't owe you anything and your partners have minds and will of their own

As i said inqisition is under inq command and it is military organization so...

Im leader and highest-ranking if they don't listen to my orders i don't need them as military doesn't need peoples who disobey pretty much i can hire a lot competent peoples who will obey.

 

Pretty much leliana in demo proved she isn't capable do her job as she risked life of entire team and success of the mission because of her emotions and mental instability.

[LobselVith8]

When the whole power belongs to one person it is an absolute monarchy
Prove that the Inquisitor is royal, otherwise, accept that people don't owe you anything and your partners have minds and will of their own

 

It's apparently a military organization, comprised (initially) of former members of the Chantry's militant arm who didn't defect with Lambert, like Cassandra, Cullen, and Leliana. I don't get the impression it's supposed to be similar to the electric group of men and women who voluntarily joined the Warden during the Fifth Blight, or the friends and rivals of the Champion, and a lot of people are voicing their opinion on this situation with that in mind.

 

I'd like to think that, despite the varied backgrounds of the companions and advisers, that they would adhere to the commands of the Inquisitor unless they want to leave the organization and go their own way. I can understand the problem people have with a member of the organization openly defying orders, since empathy and morality don't come into the picture when you're addressing a subordinate disobeying a direct order in a military organization.

[Hazegurl]

I saw people discussing this a little in another thread but I'd like to shine a light on it if possible. During the DAI demo we see the Inquisitor try to tell Leliana to let go of the Magister's son, she doesn't comply and proceeds to slit his throat. She defied direct orders, now I know we won't be able to execute her for this but some punishment must be possible? Otherwise we're impotent leaders and deserve no respect. An Inquisition needs a leader that rules with an iron fist.

Then I would want to the option to throw her in prison or execute her. I don't want my advisers thinking they can run the inquisition and do as they please. Besides, I never cared for her anyway.  If i can't do anything at all to her for plot reasons she's going to be my new most hated BW character next to Liara.

[Jazzpha]

And who says that the inquisitor knows the best course of actions?
At the beginning we are no one, really. We have to prove to be a worthy leader to follow
Sides Alexius had already endangered the whole team, castle and probably city

 

Metagaming for a second, I say that, because I know how RPGs work.

 

But from an in-universe perspective, all I meant was that I hope the general consensus of the Inquisition as a whole is that closing the Breach is more important than anything else-- it's the main reason the organization even exists, after all.

 

That's a different concern from whether or not everyone I'm working with thinks I'm a swell guy. It's more about the overall mission statement of the crew.

[Basement Cat]

That reminds me of something: Leliana's profile says that she undrestands that the Inquisition cannot survive if there is infighting, and yet she still overrules the Inquisitor in this particular scenario... Methinks recent events left a deeper impact than previously thought.

[LobselVith8]

And who says that the inquisitor knows the best course of actions?
At the beginning we are no one, really. We have to prove to be a worthy leader to follow
Sides Alexius had already endangered the whole team, castle and probably city

 

The Inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition. It's not a democracy, it's a military organization. It's meant to be inherently different than the ragtag groups we had with our previous two protagonists. The developers even said the Inquisitor can order subordinates to handle certain tasks, and that the organization will proceed based on how the protagonist wants to lead and develop the Inquisition, so there clearly seems to be a chain of command. And this scene in Redcliffe happened because, as the developers pointed out, a number of options were chosen beforehand, so it's not necessarily going to be the same for players who have their protagonist select a different course of action; the inclusion of Leliana also suggests the Inquisitor utilized subterfuge, rather than a military or diplomatic approach from one of the other advisers.

 

I understand what you mean in empathizing with what Leliana's been through, but the argument being made is that it's not an issue of morality, it's a matter of a subordinate defying her superior.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oh how I enjoy a lot of these "dark and gritty big men" and their wanton bloodtlust comments... We have next to nothing in the form of context and still they are crying for an execution....

 

Yes yes, we are all impressed with how dark and cool you are. Now move along.

[Basement Cat]

 the inclusion of Leliana also suggests the Inquisitor utilized subterfuge, rather than a military or diplomatic approach from one of the other advisers.

Mind you, if she was there because she didn't trust our judgement and went ahead with her own idea... Woo, epic f*** up!

[cjones91]

As long as they don't do anything to endanger the group my Inquisitor would be lenient to her subordinates who disobey a order.

[cjones91]

Oh how I enjoy a lot of these "dark and gritty big men" and their wanton bloodtlust comments... We have next to nothing in the form of context and still they are crying for an execution....

 

Yes yes, we are all impressed with how dark and cool you are. Now move along.

Back in the old days insubordination meant either death or being imprisoned,so I don't see how anyone is bloodlusted for seeing some consequences such a act would entail.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Back in the old days insubordination meant either death or being imprisoned,so I don't see how anyone is bloodlusted for seeing some consequences such a act would entail.

Back in the days people also thought that the Earth was flat, that left-handed were being influenced by demons, that dancing around in fancy outfits made it rain, that eating the flesh of your enemies made you stronger, the list goes on. I imagine that we should do ALL those things... After all, that is how people used to do it, right?

[Xilizhra]

Oh how I enjoy a lot of these "dark and gritty big men" and their wanton bloodtlust comments... We have next to nothing in the form of context and still they are crying for an execution....

 

Yes yes, we are all impressed with how dark and cool you are. Now move along.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel when I read pro-templar arguments.

 

On-topic, Leliana clearly overstepped her bounds, and I think that's one of the components of the relationship damage that was mentioned before. However, it doesn't look like avoiding this eventuality will necessarily be too difficult.

[Reznore57]

 If you start killing your men because they have a bit of a melt down after being tortured...Good luck with that!

Anyway Leliana disobey sort of...5 minutes after she's risking her life for the Inquisitor and the world.

 

The thing is the Inquisitor has the glowy hand , Cassandra and co have the troops etc...

They put you in the leader position and then you can work your way from here.

But I think at first the Inquisitor is a figurehead , and you have to earn your leader title.

[Jazzpha]

https://www.youtube....h?v=83i9gp1IBPU

 

That's how I see my Inquisitor addressing any particularly egregious incidents of direct insubordination.

[Xilizhra]

Back in the days people also thought that the Earth was flat, that left-handed were being influenced by demons, that dancing around in fancy outfits made it rain, that eating the flesh of your enemies made you stronger, the list goes on. I imagine that we should do ALL those things... After all, that is how people used to do it, right?

Wait a minute, haven't you been arguing that we should be handling our IC morality by Thedas' rules and not our own world's?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait a minute, haven't you been arguing that we should be handling our IC morality by Thedas' rules and not our own world's?

The characters in game should not be expected to understand our modern worldviews. That means the general public. The PCs on the other hand are our avatars, and can bend those rules as we desire. What shouldn't be expected is for the rest of Thedas to understand, let alone do the same as our PCs.

[Iakus]

 

On-topic, Leliana clearly overstepped her bounds, and I think that's one of the components of the relationship damage that was mentioned before. However, it doesn't look like avoiding this eventuality will necessarily be too difficult.

Even more, we don't have the full context of what was going on there, what the Tevinters were doing, why Leliana was sent there, what the alternative choices were, Whether Alexius really could be trusted, or even what exactly was done to his son to begin with (though it certainly didn't look to healthy)

[Icy Magebane]

 If you start killing your men because they have a bit of a melt down after being tortured...Good luck with that!

Anyway Leliana disobey sort of...5 minutes after she's risking her life for the Inquisitor and the world.

 

The thing is the Inquisitor has the glowy hand , Cassandra and co have the troops etc...

They put you in the leader position and then you can work your way from here.

But I think at first the Inquisitor is a figurehead , and you have to earn your leader title.

People keep mentioning that you need to earn your rank, which I agree with, but from what I understand, this scene happens kind of late into the game... I mean, at some point we're either in charge or we're not.  If not, I'd rather know that up front.

 

I think a lot of the acceptance of Leliana's disobedience stems from peoples' assumption that everything will work out no matter what the companions do.  Maybe they're right about that, since this is a Bioware game and we know how things work.  Realistically, however, the chain of command exists to be followed.  If individual soldiers are left to formulate their own plans during operations, then leaders, ranks, strategy, and tactics serve no purpose.

[Hazegurl]

Why do I get the impression that all of this "Prove yourself" stuff is basically running errands for the other "leaders" and agreeing with every damn thing they say. No thanks. I better have the option to prove myself as a leader by directly handling those who disobey me.

[Hazegurl]

And who says that the inquisitor knows the best course of actions?
At the beginning we are no one, really. We have to prove to be a worthy leader to follow
Sides Alexius had already endangered the whole team, castle and probably city

Your argument is based on the assumption that any actions the NPC's make on their own is automatically the better decision. For all we know Leilana could have made the entire situation worse off than it would had been.