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Bayonet charge


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#26
Han Shot First

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Might come from different cultures. Marines love the bayonet. In the Army, we phased it out years ago. We don't even issue one anymore. We tend to circumvent the ammunition problem by bringing more ammunition. The issue becomes whether house and room clearing qualifies as a bayonet worthy. My argument is that it isn't, since it's at extremely close quarters in a closed environment. In Korangal, we had 6 separate Insurgent charges with them, at ranges of less than 60 meters. All were repelled with 100% casualties on the part of the attackers.

 

Another common thread in most of the successful bayonet attacks in recent conflicts is a disparity in the quality of the two opposing forces. With the exception of the Brits charging the Argentines at Mount Tumbledown, the majority of the successful bayonet charges in the last few decades have been by professional soldiers or Marines against an irregular militia. Part of the reason why they were successful I think is because they were against defenders who were less well equipped to repulse them, both in terms of equipment and having the training and discipline to stand your ground when a bunch of screaming maniacs are coming towards you with cold steel. The bayonet is primarily a psychological weapon, and when it succeeds it is because the defenders break and run.

 

I think generally speaking it is far less successful when used against professional soldiers who aren't going to break in the face of a bayonet assault, and who possess both the equipment and training to repulse it. What is interesting about the incidents that you describe is that it is essentially the reverse of most of the incidents where the bayonet was used successfully in recent conflicts. There it was an irregular militia making assaults against well armed and trained professional soldiers.

 

World War Two provides great examples of both the bayonet's strength and weaknesses as a psychological weapon. Japanese tactical doctrine in the 1930s into the early 1940s, emphasized the bayonet. Japanese infantry would launch attacks with the aim of closing into bayonet range, and then charging pell-mell into the defenders' position. The Japanese of that era believed they were racially superior to their enemies, and that Asian or Western opponents that lacked their Yamato warrior spirit would break. In China they found a great deal of success with those tactics, only reinforcing racial myths, because Chinese formations were often less well equipped and trained. They would often break in the face of bayonet attacks, particularly if the Japanese managed a local superiority in numbers to achieve a breakthrough. The bayonet was successful in China because it was being used against troops were less well trained and equipped.

 

Those tactics were far less successful however in early battles against the Americans, British, and Australians, who were much better armed and equipped on average than the Chinese soldiers, and better trained. Against well armed and disciplined troops who would hold their ground, banzai charges were usually chewed to pieces and with a large disparity in casualties. At the Battle of Tenaru (Guadalcanal) for example, the Japanese lost over 700 men for about 40 some American KIA. The failure of those tactics against Western opponents later led to the Japanese largely abandoning the bayonet charge, except in circumstances where the situation had become hopeless for the defenders, and the objective was to die in battle rather than be captured.


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#27
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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I think I'd rather have an AA-12 than a bayonet for room to room fighting.

 

Negative, an M4 with a short barrel and reduced polymer stock with a laser sight and flashlight to blind opposition. At that extremely close ranges, you don't have the space for the shot to adequately disperse from the shell, and while it may having stopping power with the initial shell into one target, you're sacrificing speed and maneuverability, which is much more vital in CQC than power. Depending on the power of the shell and the distance before the shot can spread from the shell, you might only damage the combatant. You aren't going to put him through the wall.

 

If you are going to use a combat shotgun, as I said, the Benelli M4, or the Remington M870 is your most effective approach. Personally, I'd stick to an M4 carbine. Light, accurate, short, semi-automatic fire, and has good stopping power in CQC.


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#28
Han Shot First

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well my last post in this thread i was truing good thread but it derailed so i'm I would bet the alliance marines still train if not use the bayonet. they teach hand to hand still.

 

Alliance Marines almost certainly train with the bayonet, considering in ME3 its one of the weapon mods.



#29
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I thought we were doing the equivalent of the Bayonet Charge in the Battle for London.

 

Anderson the Dumb: "Shepard, you need to get to that beacon. So I'm sending you up the middle where the resistance is the heaviest."

 

Shepard the Dumber: "Yes, Sir."

 

Fighting a 22nd century war with WW 1 tactics.


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#30
Jukaga

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Negative, an M4 with a short barrel and reduced polymer stock with a laser sight and flashlight to blind opposition. At that extremely close ranges, you don't have the space for the shot to adequately disperse from the shell, and while it may having stopping power with the initial shell into one target, you're sacrificing speed and maneuverability, which is much more vital in CQC than power. Depending on the power of the shell and the distance before the shot can spread from the shell, you might only damage the combatant. You aren't going to put him through the wall.

 

If you are going to use a combat shotgun, as I said, the Benelli M4, or the Remington M870 is your most effective approach. Personally, I'd stick to an M4 carbine. Light, accurate, short, semi-automatic fire, and has good stopping power in CQC.

Interesting. I figured 300 rpm of buckshot or slugs would ruin anyone's day. With a 32rd drum mag, that six seconds of death wouldn't be pretty.



#31
Jukaga

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I thought we were doing the equivalent of the Bayonet Charge in the Battle for London.

 

Anderson the Dumb: "Shepard, you need to get to that beacon. So I'm sending you up the middle where the resistance is the heaviest."

 

Shepard the Dumber: "Yes, Sir."

 

Fighting a 22nd century war with WW 1 tactics.

As he was 'born in London', perhaps he was channeling Field Marshal Haig?



#32
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Ww1 tactics would involve heavy artillery, tanks, air support and small squad tactics (by the end at least).

Priority earth is more akin to a Highland charge.
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#33
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Has big budget sci-fi ever done ground fighting right? Look at Star Wars, no indirect fire weapons or maneuver only direct charges out of cover. At least the rebels at Hoth had some fortifications but every other battle portrayed was fought as if they were club wielding cavemen. The Dominion War battles on DS9 were even worse. No vehicles to be seen, no support weapons only fleet uniform personnel with phaser rifles. It strikes me that an equivalent sized modern brigade could take on any sci fi army and win.


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#34
Han Shot First

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Has big budget sci-fi ever done ground fighting right? Look at Star Wars, no indirect fire weapons or maneuver only direct charges out of cover. At least the rebels at Hoth had some fortifications but every other battle portrayed was fought as if they were club wielding cavemen. The Dominion War battles on DS9 were even worse. No vehicles to be seen, no support weapons only fleet uniform personnel with phaser rifles. It strikes me that an equivalent sized modern brigade could take on any sci fi army and win.

 

What is interesting about that is that Coates was said to be in command of an artillery battalion. Of course during the gameplay of Priority: Earth you see no evidence of artillery support, but I suppose thats just another example of story and gameplay segregation. 



#35
DeinonSlayer

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Has big budget sci-fi ever done ground fighting right? Look at Star Wars, no indirect fire weapons or maneuver only direct charges out of cover. At least the rebels at Hoth had some fortifications but every other battle portrayed was fought as if they were club wielding cavemen. The Dominion War battles on DS9 were even worse. No vehicles to be seen, no support weapons only fleet uniform personnel with phaser rifles. It strikes me that an equivalent sized modern brigade could take on any sci fi army and win.

Calls back an old classic.

Major Coates: "OK, listen up, scumbags. If we're gonna reach the Conduit, we need a good game plan. Now, I have two options we can use. Number one, we run at the beam in a single file line, screaming at the top of our lungs! The enemy will be so flabbergasted, by the time they have a chance to regroup, we'll already be inside.
James: Oh, yeah, right. They're not going to get surprised, they're just going to start mowing us down.
Major Coates: That is the inherent beauty of the single file line. They can only kill the person in front. So if we order from least important to most important, with James being in the front and me being in the back, then we just might make it through.
Garrus: Don't you think that Shepard should be in the back, since he's the protagonist?
Major Coates: No, Shepard is in front of me. We need someone in back who can objectively evaluate how the plan is working.
James: How are you going to know if the plan isn't working?
Major Coates: If Shepard gets shot, I'll know we're in trouble, and immediately abort.
Shepard: I think that's a good plan!
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#36
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All the artillery was wasted on the reaper in London. The thing was all but dead with just the two misslies. The artillery could've been used for cover fire at Harbinger while we ran at the beam.



#37
Aimi

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As he was 'born in London', perhaps he was channeling Field Marshal Haig?


Haig was Scottish. No other Scottish general got more Englishmen killed than he did.

#38
Jukaga

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Haig was Scottish. No other Scottish general got more Englishmen killed than he did.

I know, thus the comment. Scottish, English all British.



#39
Sir DeLoria

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I'd want to be the guy with the machine gun, mowing them all down.
 
Only a moron does a bayonet charge when your opponent has automatic weapons. It's like the people on FB are all ROTC cadets or something.


Unless you're out of ammo and don't fear death, in that case.

Banzai charge!

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#40
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I know, thus the comment. Scottish, English all British.

 

From experience, while technically correct, don't tell that to a Scot.



#41
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I would rather not charge.  Instead I would rather hold my position laying covering fire and have someone else flank or vice versa.



#42
Jukaga

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From experience, while technically correct, don't tell that to a Scot.

Which tells me most of them don't know their own history because the Act of Union was under a Scottish King! Oh well.



#43
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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I would rather not charge.  Instead I would rather hold my position laying covering fire and have someone else flank or vice versa.

 

I would just call-for-fire, drill a fire-mission with some One-Five-Five's or an MLRS and call it a day.

 

Why take a position when Artillery can just turn it into a big hole in the ground for you?


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#44
Jukaga

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I would just call-for-fire, drill a fire-mission with some One-Five-Five's or an MLRS and call it a day.

 

Why take a position when Artillery can just turn it into a big hole in the ground for you?

More XP for fighting on foot. Oh wait...



#45
RanetheViking

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I remember reading or watching something about Rourkes Drift ages ago, something like "the only time the Zulus ever flinched or shied was when the bayonet was used freely".

 

I just thought I throw that in to stay on topic.

 

I would rather not charge.  Instead I would rather hold my position laying covering fire and have someone else flank or vice versa.

This made me think of that line in Striipes.

 

"If we ever get into serious combat I want you guys to know I'll be right behind you".

 


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#46
Aimi

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I would rather not charge.  Instead I would rather hold my position laying covering fire and have someone else flank or vice versa.

 
That's great if the position has a flank. Sometimes it doesn't. The example of the Western Front of the First World War springs to mind.

Besides, even if the position's defenders are being suppressed, somebody's got to kick them out eventually.
 

I would just call-for-fire, drill a fire-mission with some One-Five-Five's or an MLRS and call it a day.
 
Why take a position when Artillery can just turn it into a big hole in the ground for you?


Yeah, that's what the British thought at the Somme. (Or, for an American black-powder example, the Confederate commanders at Gettysburg.) Far be it from me to underplay the destructive effect of high explosives, but overestimating their power got an awful lot of people killed in the Great War. By the end of the war, the good doctrine tended to emphasize the suppressive role of fire superiority, not its destructive role.

It's nice when the big guns and the Air Scouts can get rid of the bad guys for you, but relying on them is foolish.

#47
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This made me think of that line in Striipes.

 

Excellent movie with Bill Murray



#48
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That's great if the position has a flank. Sometimes it doesn't. The example of the Western Front of the First World War springs to mind.

Besides, even if the position's defenders are being suppressed, somebody's got to kick them out eventually.
 

Yeah, that's what the British thought at the Somme. (Or, for an American black-powder example, the Confederate commanders at Gettysburg.) Far be it from me to underplay the destructive effect of high explosives, but overestimating their power got an awful lot of people killed in the Great War. By the end of the war, the good doctrine tended to emphasize the suppressive role of fire superiority, not its destructive role.

It's nice when the big guns and the Air Scouts can get rid of the bad guys for you, but relying on them is foolish.

 

I'm afraid to say that your observations based on history that you have presented are technologically and tactically out-of-date in comparison to the modern battlefield, and have been for the better part of 70 to 80 years. Sorry to say this, but you're a history expert, not a commander on the modern battlefield, and it shows here.

 

On your first point, there is very little to almost absolutely zero chance of the kind of situation seen in the Western Front happening again on the battlefield for the forseeable future. In the days of the first World War, military doctrine and technology would of course be more limited in the excavation of a hostile combatant fortification. Nowadays, if I know where it's at and can see it, it's as easy as calling a JDAM from an orbiting A-10 or Strike Eagle, and that fortification will be turned into a hole in the ground. You typically won't see very many modern ground operations without some kind of chain of priority for fire support. I've never been on a mission where we didn't have at least some type of immediate priority for fire support. And once you give a call, they don't bullshit or hang around. Somebody is always ready and waiting with your grid coordinates on a battery or in a gunship or strike fighter; the longest I ever had to wait from sending out an immediate call-for-fire to its receipt was 2 and a half minutes (the average period of waiting was anywhere from 30 seconds to 75 seconds). In this modern day and age, you can theoretically overestimate artillery, but this is exceedingly rare for American forces. The only guys who really aren't going to be having much support are the irregular units such as SF or PJ's or SEALs or Special Operations.

 

When it comes to outmaneuvering the opposition on the battlefield, there are of course a variety methods to circumvent a fortified defensive line. Obviously, first and foremost is to bomb the **** out of it. If that doesn't work, you're not hitting them with the right munitions. So far, there have been very, very, very exceedingly few organized fortification systems that are artificial/man-made that haven't been immediately demolished by American firepower in modern battlefields of the last 30 years. The whole shebang these days is to hide in caves and come out at night, and even then, this is becoming more and more of an unfeasible tactic for insurgencies thanks to the use of drone positioning to watch their every move. Disorganized assaults are still the norm along with hiding in plain site, but we are making increasing strides in separating non-combatants from insurgents.

 

Typically, the ones to kick them out of their defensive are the infantry, but I don't know if you're up to date on modern rifle company and platoon maneuvers. We *do* absolutely rely on fire support, and I can tell you it's not foolish at all to over-rely on them. As I said, somebody, somewhere has some ass pointed in your grid square, and when you do call for support, it will be on target (and I mean on target with a maximum 10 meter margin of error and an average margin of error of less than a meter) within 3 minutes. American doctrine these days is conduct patrol, spot enemy, radio in SALUTE-P Report and a Call-for-fire from the Fister, and watch the bad guy turn into a red fireball one minute later, give an ACE report (if you need it) and a CASEVAC for any wounded survivors, and be on your way.

 

Artillery is the King of Battle. Infantry is the Queen of Battle. The King puts it where the Queen wants it.

 

This ain't Gettysburg or the Meuse-Argonne Forest anymore. This is the Korangal Valley (SKY SOLDIERS HOOAH!), Helmand, and Aranas.

 

Ever watch Restrepo? I knew a lot of those guys. I was with the HHC as a HUMINT Collector and Fire Support Specialist down in the valley proper in Asadabad (also spent time in the Pech District itself, which was basically just watching cattle hump when we weren't getting shot at), closer to civilization, but still in Afganistan (two words that are kind of an oxymoron), while Battle Company was up in the Squarah Peak area (though I think they renamed it). Korangal is in the legendary Kunar Province, and for 7 long months for my detachment from June of 2007 to February 2008, lived in what CNN once called 'The deadliest place on Earth.' Firebase Phoenix/Vimoto has the second highest expenditure of munitions of any ISAF/NATO Coalition installation in all of Afghanistan. Not keen on heading back anytime soon.

 

Still, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, the Hindu Kush Mountains are gorgeous in the winter. You know they grow 37% of all the Pot in Asia up there? When we were finally flying out on the CH-47's to take us back to civilization, you'd get this really awesome view of the clear mountains and snow all up in the Hindu Kush, and ways away, miles away, you got this really cool look at Tirich Mir in Pakistan, the highest mountain in the Kush Range. My detachment left 7 months before everybody else, so we left right in the middle of winter, right when the Mountains were at their most snowy and had the highest albedo. Reaffirmed my dream of being a Himalayan Alpinist. Something else they don't tell you. You're less than 20 miles from the Pakistan border too up in Kunar. Which isn't really a happy thing, since that's within walking distance for the indigenous tribes up there. We'd get Taliban fighters who'd hike 30 miles or more, go down into the valley at night, and be firing up at us all the next day. And we relied too much on choppers. They pretty much ruin any semblance of secrecy for some of the further excursions you take. There's a saying up there that was true: Where the road ends, the Taliban begins, and we were less than 200 meters from the end of even the most bare of foot trails.

 

Ah, but the tired musings of wanting to be 18/19 again... Most people when I was 18 were out enjoying life on the beach with their friends or studying or doing whatever normal, ordinary people did...


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#49
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That's great if the position has a flank. Sometimes it doesn't. The example of the Western Front of the First World War springs to mind.

Besides, even if the position's defenders are being suppressed, somebody's got to kick them out eventually.
 
 

 

I was giving an example of a choice that could be made instead of charging.  Perhaps it is retreating but I suppose you could retort that by saying there is an un-scalable cliff behind you or this is a last stand no prisoners will be taken.  Perhaps I could give another choice of digging in and waiting for reinforcements or an artillery/air strike to come but you could retort that perhaps you and this group of soldiers are the last of your kind/country/etc.

 

The point I am now bringing up is that there are so many choices to be considered before ever bayonetting a charge unless that charge is televised and you can be a martyr for whatever cause you are charging to your death for.

 

Jedis on the other hand....they can bayonet charge every day with force speed and lightsabers deflecting shots.  :)



#50
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Just as an aside, I always find the glorification of military power (which, in the end, is about killing people) rather odd.