229 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

They are both but they think like synthetics. Take a look at Sovereign speech and his perception of time. Take a look at what Javik says about the perception of time of synthetics. You can like it but it actually doesn't make sense for the reapers to kill to reproduce themselves because they don't feel time as organics do. Reproduction is a reaction of a feeling that we will die. Synthetics don't feel that they will die.

 

So the creation of more allies isn't necessarily a good enough motivation for reproduction? Reapers might not be afraid of death from old age, but increasing your power base ensures that death from other sources is also less likely. The Geth made more Geth to help defend themselves - as well as the fact that it improved their collective intelligence.

[CosmicGnosis]

Another way to state my point: The tyranny of synthetics already exists. It's not just a theoretical possibility. The Catalyst is a synthetic that is running the galaxy. This is exactly the kind of situation that we want to avoid. But again, the one "good" thing about this situation is that the synthetic's mission is to preserve organic life as a whole.

[SporkFu]

But its methods are suspect, in my opinion. Maybe it doesn't have to be quite so efficient. Maybe it's not giving a particular cycle enough time to develop its own solution, all in the name of efficiency. Admittedly, maybe the catalyst tried that in the past and it never worked. Who can say. 

[Farangbaa]

But its methods are suspect, in my opinion. Maybe it doesn't have to be quite so efficient. Maybe it's not giving a particular cycle enough time to develop its own solution, all in the name of efficiency. Admittedly, maybe the catalyst tried that in the past and it never worked. Who can say. 

 

Most likely it has tried options that didn't require organics to be turned into goo.

 

I'm willing to bet that these organics screwed up time and time again and it observed there was a certain point in their development where sh*t just went outta control and could not be repaired.

 

edit:

 

Basically it concluded that if organics keep developing, they develop their own death.

It might not be the first AI they create that'll destroy them, it might not even be the second.

Hell, even a third might not kill them.

The organics will always try to kill the the AI though. (The Reapers ascend all life, including AI)

 

The vastness of the galaxy, coupled with the observation that all sentient organics lifeforms will create AI, means to it that it can't take the risk of allowing organics to pass past a certain point.

 

p.s.

You don't have the faintest clue how many species the Leviathan and the Catalyst saw being destroyed by AI before the Catalyst came up with it's solution. I wish they'd have mentioned it in the game. 

 

All we can safely conclude is the Leviathan did not make the Catalyst before it happened multiple times, and the Catalyst did not come up with it's solution after witnessing the extinction of an organic species a single time.

[SporkFu]

Most likely it has tried options that didn't require organics to be turned into goo.

But that's how new reapers are made, so of course organics are gonna have to be turned into goo.

I'm willing to bet that these organics screwed up time and time again and it observed there was a certain point in their development where sh*t just went outta control and could not be repaired.

You could be right. Or it could be that Leviathan observed this happening again and again, and programmed the catalyst to make sure it doesn't happen. Like, Leviathan's First Law of Robotics. 

[Farangbaa]

But that's how new reapers are made, so of course organics are gonna have to be turned into goo.

Reapers weren't there yet when non-goo solutions were tried. The Reapers are the result of the final option of many solutions tried. When tried it was immediatly succesful (although not thorough, as the Leviathan remain).

Catalyst cheated on the meaning of 'being alive' and 'saving life' and all that, but I think we can all agree with that.

(I will just as easily argue that by saving the DNA of a species you save the entire species, btw It's just not the way a species would want to be saved.)

[SporkFu]

Reapers weren't there yet when non-goo solutions were tried. The Reapers are the result of the final option of many solutions tried. When tried it was immediatly succesful (although not thorough, as the Leviathan remain).

Catalyst cheated on the meaning of 'being alive' and 'saving life' and all that, but I think we can all agree with that.

(I will just as easily argue that by saving the DNA of a species you save the entire species, btw It's just not the way a species would want to be saved.)

That bugs me too, because the reapers never do anything with it except make more reapers. So the catalyst's mandate is to preserve life, but for what reason?  

[Farangbaa]

Maybe when the Catalyst/Shepard comes up with a better solution, the DNA will be extracted and the species harvested recreated.

[KaiserShep]

Assuming that it would even be possible, it doesn't seem like a good idea to reconstitute the species that were wiped out, especially considering just how many reapers are out there. What would be the point? Where would they go?

[Farangbaa]

Assuming that it would even be possible

It is. DNA contains information about just about everything. From what you are (species) to what you did and even what your parentsdid (by means of epigenetics) to how you are built (pieces of the genetic code that don't code for proteins [i.e. aren't a gene], but decide how and when genes are expressed. Promotors and the like)

Current science cannot build an organism from just DNA (hell, current science has trouble constructing a minimal cell), future science will. Taking into consideration just how immense the genetic engineering capabilities of the Reapers are, I'm assuming the Reapers can as well.

it doesn't seem like a good idea to reconstitute the species that were wiped out, especially considering just how many reapers are out there.

I'm just throwing it out here because it's one of the options that preserving the genetic code gives you.

[KaiserShep]

This all really depends on what the writers care to insert into them anyway. Like, it could just as well be that once the organics are processed into a reaper, there's no way to extract it to revive the species, like maybe a husk body can't be used to restore the person that it was made from.

[wright1978]

Did you want the Reapers to have a "noble" purpose? That is, did you want the ultimate goal of the Reapers to be something "good", but the problem was their misguided method of solving it?

 

Or did you want the Reapers to have no purpose? Did you want them to be straightforward monsters with no compelling reason for doing what they did?

 

Or did you want the Reapers to have a purpose, but have it forever remain a secret? Perhaps a few hints as to what their goal was, but only enough to prevent them from being simple monsters?

 

I'd have vastly preferred the purpose to remain a mysterious and distainfully out of our reac.

2nd preference would have been for harvest to have been simple biological imperative.

Nowhere on the list was nonsensical rubbish inc DEM.

[Farangbaa]

This all really depends on what the writers care to insert into them anyway. Like, it could just as well be that once the organics are processed into a reaper, there's no way to extract it to revive the species, like maybe a husk body can't be used to restore the person that it was made from.

You can't reconstruct a person.. unless Javik is right and memory has its own biological marker. (lol)
I suppose in the MEU they could.

In real life you'd only be able to reconstruct the species, not the individual person.

[Vortex13]

I would have preferred that the Reapers' ultimate reasoning remain in the dark; allow players to speculate (the good kind of speculation) on why the Reapers reap. Failing that, I would have preferred either a 'simple' answer such as reproduction, or the big reveal being that the Reapers were following some programing (no Catalyst, no overriding intelligence) just some mandate that decreed the annihilation of advanced, sentient life every fifty thousand years; maybe even having the Reapers regard the mandate with an almost religious reverence.

 

 As a side note I have always wondered if the Catalyst's mandate only applied to organic life being wiped out by synthetics, or just the preserving of organic life against anything that might threaten it. Would the Reapers intervene if an all organic race akin to a virus; much like the Tyranids of WH40K;  ravaged the galaxy killing off all other life? Would they try and stop the collision of the Milk Way and the Andromeda galaxies? What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

[Farangbaa]

I would have preferred that the Reapers' ultimate reasoning remain in the dark; allow players to speculate (the good kind of speculation) on why the Reapers reap. Failing that, I would have preferred either a 'simple' answer such as reproduction, or the big reveal being that the Reapers were following some programing (no Catalyst, no overriding intelligence) just some mandate that decreed the annihilation of advanced, sentient life every fifty thousand years; maybe even having the Reapers regard the mandate with an almost religious reverence.
 
 As a side note I have always wondered if the Catalyst's mandate only applied to organic life being wiped out by synthetics, or just the preserving of organic life against anything that might threaten it. Would the Reapers intervene if an all organic race akin to a virus; much like the Tyranids of WH40K;  ravaged the galaxy killing off all other life? Would they try and stop the collision of the Milk Way and the Andromeda galaxies? What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

In organic vs organic conflict nothing is lost, the victor remains organic.
Organic vs synthetic (creators vs created) has the potential to wipe one of the sides out.
The victor will usually be the synthetics, because they are better in just about every way when it comes to a fight.


Quick sidenote: the Reapers preserve both synthetic life as well as organic. (don't ask me HOW they preserve synthetic life. Preserving organics by means of preserving their essence aka DNA I can somewhat wrap my head around.. the equivalent of this with synthetics is beyond me)

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I just didn't want them to have a stupid purpose.

 

Even no purpose would have been preferable.  Heck malfunctioning Berserkers made more sense.

 

Thing is, they didn't have a stupid purpose. Their purpose is entirely valid, and even their methodology can be seen as an extreme devotion to solving the outcome.

 

The issue is that the Catalyst took the dilemma of the Leviathan's problem and ran with it because he was programmed to not let the problem go unsolved. He probably realized the futility and intent of the Leviathans and saw that the problem would be a lot more complicated to literally solve than what they were aiming for.

[KaiserShep]

You can't reconstruct a person.. unless Javik is right and memory has its own biological marker. (lol)I suppose in the MEU they could.In real life you'd only be able to reconstruct the species, not the individual person.

I only mean person insofar as the specimen, not whoever that person used to be, whether it be from removing the reaper crap or cloning from whatever you can get.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

To clarify, I'm of the opinion that the Reapers could have a knowable purpose without having any kind of understanding or logical sense being available to a non-Reaper.

 

We know what they do, and we know why they do it, but their system of logic is utterly alien and incomprehensible. We can't comprehend why they place value in the intent behind their actions.

 

It'd succeed in making the Reapers completely alien and leaving the incomprehensible factor in, since their method of reasoning and logic is so bizarre and disconnected from our own system. As I said in my first post on the first page, the Reapers are attacking us because bacon is tastier than lemon juice.

 

It makes perfect sense to a Reaper. And if you were a Reaper, you'd understand why, since bacon is tastier than lemon juice, the galaxy must be purged and harvested of sapient life every 50,000 years.

 

It's insanity to us, but are the insane truly insane?

[KaiserShep]

But bacon IS better than lemon juice. Totally understandable.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

But bacon IS better than lemon juice. Totally understandable.

 

Good. So now kill every person you meet and blend their remains into a grey goo and fill it into the cavity of a giant killing robot cuttlefish.

 

Watch 'Will it blend?' if you need inspiration.

[Nitrocuban]

Well, something truely mindbending would have been nice.

A temporal paradoxon, like a cosmic extinction event in the future the Reapers try to stop but eventually are the reason for it and we are in the middle of it all.

Something in between the endings of Star Trek: The Next Generation and Bioshock Infinite

[AlanC9]

But... would peace have been possible if the geth didn't get the reaper upgrades? Maybe, maybe not.

I don't follow this. Every time I play, the geth either get upgraded or get destroyed. There's no maybe about it.

Is this a hypothetical about different quarian leadership?

[Farangbaa]

I don't follow this. Every time I play, the geth either get upgraded or get destroyed. There's no maybe about it.

 

He's asking if peace is possible because of the Reaper upgrade. If it changed them so much that it became an option where it wouldn't have been before.

 

(which isn' tso bcause in ME2 Legion already speaks of peace)

 

I think

[AlanC9]

Hmm. The interesting thing there is that the Reaper upgrades don't seem to change geth goals; we don't have much data about other personality changes. Geth just have more capabilities. Sort of like how Synthesis is supposed to upgrade organic capabilities.

Upgraded geth are no more likely to accept peace than non-upgraded geth, are they?

[Farangbaa]

Hmm. The interesting thing there is that the Reaper upgrades don't seem to change geth goals; we don't have much data about other personality changes. Geth just have more capabilities. Sort of like how Synthesis is supposed to upgrade organic capabilities.

Upgraded geth are no more likely to accept peace than non-upgraded geth, are they?

 

Well, in all fairness.. Legion carries the Reaper upgrades from the moment you meet him in ME3. The Geth outlook on life seems to have changed significantly from that point on.

 

It kinda does change their goals.