229 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't think I was constructing anything, I was just being plain 'ole low brow.

[Obadiah]

@Han Shot First
Of course I disagree with your conclusion; however, just to consider your own version of how things have played out in the past and will play out in the future, even if you don't care about the Synthetics killed in those conflicts, there are a awful lot of dead Organics. Whole civilizations were destroyed before the Synthetics were eventually defeated.

Given the cycle of violence that you predict, there will come a point where the Synthetics will just outright win, as the Reapers have already been doing for a billion years. I'm not sure what your prediction of Synthetic's behavior will be when they do, but my thinking is that they'll look back on history and probably decide to just crush their repeated oppressors permanently. You know, pick the Destroy option so they can relax and calculate pi in peace.

...
Finally, the Catalyst is no more capable of predicting the future than Miss Cleo. It possesses no special powers or clairvoyance, and the prediction that synthetics will inevitably destroy organic life is nothing more than the result of highly flawed programming by the Leviathans. Both it and they are fallible.
...

The "special power" that the Catalyst has is that of attention. It has been paying attention to the problem for a billion years, whereas we're just sort of stumbling around in it, some of us making "flawed" and "fallible" claims because we don't like its predictions, and would rather ignore the clear and obvious evidence of the progression of the Synthetic Organic conflict before us:
- the Geth are an example of the Created rebelling against the Creators
- the Reaper War is an example of the destruction as the Synthetic Organic conflict escalates
- the Crucible Destroy option is one step removed from what the Catalyst predicted, Synthetics destroying all Organics.

On the notion of the Catalyst as "fallible" and "flawed". First, everything is flawed. The Catalyst explicitly declared its fallibility during the conversation with Shepard. That is not a reason to ignore its prediction. The Catalyst is a billion year old entity. It was intelligent enough to usurp its own creators and masters before it even had one Reaper. It has won every Reaper cycle for the past billion years. It could not do these things unless it could adapt and accurately predict its enemy. It has been considering this problem using its own logic, and probably the theories and perspectives from every civilization it has absorbed over the past billion years. Calling the Catalyst an expert would be a massive understatement. The notion that we in this cycle, with our limited interaction with Synthetics, could possibly know or understand the dynamics of this problem to a greater degree than it is utterly ridiculous. It is literally giving us the most accurate and least fallible information on the conflict.

In short your statement is not an argument for reason, it is an argument for ignorance in the face of a highly accurate but uncomfortable prediction.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Am I the only one who finds it a bit contradictory to want [alien motives, beyond our comprehension] from the Reapers, and yet have hate for the existing ending because the Catalyst explains their motives to be something we have not seen in our cycle firsthand and therefore can't imagine being true?

 

Think that one over for a moment.

 

 

I don't think there's a goal out there noble or valuable enough to have melting people come off as a understandable.

 

And here we get to the crux of the issue: trying to reconcile the Reapers' brutal methods with some goal that can be considered noble or valuable.

 

Thing is, I am pretty "Renegade" where most of this fanbase is "Paragon." It's not hard for me to make that reconciliation. I do believe, philosophically, that it's possible for means as brutal as the Reapers' to be justified -- very extreme circumstances would have to be required, but theoretically, YES, still possible. Don't care what anyone says.

 

I do think the devs were aware of the tall order at hand here and tried to offset it by presenting the Catalyst to us as that child. It looks to me like a (mis)calculation on their part to give the Reapers a "face" that people could expect and sympathize with, but clearly it backfired horribly, with lots of folks understandably reacting only with suspicion and mistrust at such a 180 degree change in portrayal (giving rise to "Deception"-nonsense theories about the ending). If anything, I think the ending could have been pulled off much better if we had gotten an entity like the Leviathan that Shepard spoke to: cool confidence with an amoral attitude, not a conventional example of anything like what we've seen out of the Reapers, but not something trying to be our friend either!

[Obadiah]

@HYR 2.0
I don't think anyone's reaction to the Catalyst is sympathy. It's such a universal non-reaction I can't imagine the devs expected it.

Aside from that though, do you think the kid was chosen as the model by the devs to represent the fact that the Reaper Synthetics were the "offspring" (or children) of organics? Perhaps to represent Synthetic "immaturity" able to command massive power?

[angol fear]

@HYR 2.0
I don't think anyone's reaction to the Catalyst is sympathy. It's such a universal non-reaction I can't imagine the devs expected it.

Aside from that though, do you think the kid was chosen as the model by the devs to represent the fact that the Reaper Synthetics were the "offspring" (or children) of organics? Perhaps to represent Synthetic "immaturity" able to command massive power?

The child is also a representation of a being without Good and Evil.

 

edit : in Niezsche philosophy, the child is the last metamorphosis of the man, the most advanced because he is free from the social representations, so good and evil doesn't exist anymore (and that's a good thing).

[SwobyJ]

Look at what even other organics can do with interaction with DNA.

 

They can bloody feel..nay, experience flashbacks of memories and have crazy freakin mind reading and stuff wtf wtf.

 

 

Don't assume the Reapers don't have a way of doing so, as well.

 

For all we know, inside a Reaper is, in a sense, a whole universe of memories and possibilities. Just from doing that grinding up of people. To be reborn in Reaper form.

 

But wait, why didn't Bioware explain this? This would mean that the Reapers' place in the story isn't over.

 

Much of Bioware Forum: "NO! SHUT UP. NO MORE REAPERS." lol

[CosmicGnosis]

@HYR 2.0
I don't think anyone's reaction to the Catalyst is sympathy. It's such a universal non-reaction I can't imagine the devs expected it.

Aside from that though, do you think the kid was chosen as the model by the devs to represent the fact that the Reaper Synthetics were the "offspring" (or children) of organics? Perhaps to represent Synthetic "immaturity" able to command massive power?

The child appearance is another detail that still bothers me. Outside of the Indoctrination Theory, I've never seen a good explanation for it. But I like your hypothesis.

[SwobyJ]

The child is whatever you want him to be.

An intrusion.

An innocent.

And maybe, an ally.

 

"Let me help you"

"Get out of here!"

[SporkFu]

@HYR 2.0
I don't think anyone's reaction to the Catalyst is sympathy. It's such a universal non-reaction I can't imagine the devs expected it.

Aside from that though, do you think the kid was chosen as the model by the devs to represent the fact that the Reaper Synthetics were the "offspring" (or children) of organics? Perhaps to represent Synthetic "immaturity" able to command massive power?

Wait, I need clarification please. Are you saying synthetics aren't capable of commanding massive power, or is it that that's how shep perceives synthetics? Or is it something else?

[SwobyJ]

Some peoples' reaction to the Catalyst was some degree of sympathy. Really. I've seen it. Its not common though.

 

And it definitely requires having High EMS so that the Cataylst's speech is much less contemptuously toned.

 

But yes, I'd agree with the idea that the Reapers are big babies that consider themselves akin to gods when relative to organics or other synthetics. Bullies. Monsters. Angels. Honestly, like I said about the kid, its whatever you project onto them - but ultimately, Reapers are enemies that at minimum need to be stopped from their current cycle of behavior. After that happens, we'll see.

[SporkFu]

Some peoples' reaction to the Catalyst was some degree of sympathy. Really. I've seen it. Its not common though.

 

And it definitely requires having High EMS so that the Cataylst's speech is much less contemptuously toned.

 

But yes, I'd agree with the idea that the Reapers are big babies that consider themselves akin to gods when relative to organics or other synthetics. Bullies. Monsters. Angels. Honestly, like I said about the kid, its whatever you project onto them - but ultimately, Reapers are enemies that at minimum need to be stopped from their current cycle of behavior. After that happens, we'll see.

I've been thinking lately about the how the reapers harvest a civilization's genetic material, and the collected wisdom and memories of that civilization are retained within the reaper. What is the purpose in retaining any of it? What do they do with it? Somehow I'm reminded of that giant warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[SwobyJ]

I've been thinking lately about the how the reapers harvest a civilization's genetic material, and the collected wisdom and memories of that civilization are retained within the reaper. What is the purpose in retaining any of it? What do they do with it? Somehow I'm reminded of that giant warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

Why would it be a werehouse? If its a virtual existence, I damn sure hope they have fun with it.

 

To a living being, or especially a god (god is a verb! heh), memories aren't just databits, imo. They matter. They need to be kept and experienced.

 

Maybe keep that in mind as you shoot at Reaper thralls - why the Reapers might even be willing to do this dirty, destructive work. What's in it for them. What ideals are they possibly striving for.

 

 

Here's some hints.

 

~~~

 

1009 Traversing the Past: A Look at History through Memories Professor Folstad WW1010 M/W 2pm-3pm

This course looks at the broad timeline of history through the minds of the people who lived it. By navigating through the web of memories, we hope to create a larger understanding of important events that have lead us to the present.

 

(From the Woods-Watson Institute, part of the 'Chosen' ARG that was just revealed.)

 

~~~

 

[DA]: What makes the Fade so interesting?

[PW]: Okay, so, the Fade—bear with me, this gets a little weird—the Fade is the spirit side of the Dragon Age universe. It’s this incredible place full of dreams and memories, imprints left behind by powerful emotions or events in our world. Solas has trained himself to do something a lot like lucid-dreaming. He goes to ancient ruins where the Veil is thin, goes to sleep, and actually experiences the history of places no one else has seen in centuries.

[DA]: Is that sort of vision accurate?

[PW]: Absolutely not. It’s based off people’s memories, right? Ask ten different witnesses at a crime scene to describe what happened, and you’ll get all kinds of conflicting information. Solas knows that everything he sees in the Fade is subjective and imperfect. It’s like a gigantic Wikipedia entry full of “[citation needed]” notes, but still, Solas has found some amazing things.

 

(From interview with Patrick Weekes about Solas)

 

~~~

 

I wonder. What is a Reaper? It's a machine, yes, and then we just dropped it. That's all we needed to know. Or was it?

[katamuro]

I really did not care if reapers were out to serve some purpose. I would have been happy with reapers reaping because thats how they procreate or because they were just doing it for shits and giggles. What I did not want is to have reapers become puppets of something like the starbrat. That just did such a huge disservice to the whole idea of reapers. After all instead of reapers the starbrat might as well have used a huge robotic army without any self-awareness at all.

[SporkFu]

Why would it be a werehouse? If its a virtual existence, I damn sure hope they have fun with it.

 

To a living being, or especially a god (god is a verb! heh), memories aren't just databits, imo. They matter. They need to be kept and experienced.

 

Maybe keep that in mind as you shoot at Reaper thralls - why the Reapers might even be willing to do this dirty, destructive work. What's in it for them. What ideals are they possibly striving for.

 

 

Here's some hints.

 

~~~

 

1009 Traversing the Past: A Look at History through Memories Professor Folstad WW1010 M/W 2pm-3pm

This course looks at the broad timeline of history through the minds of the people who lived it. By navigating through the web of memories, we hope to create a larger understanding of important events that have lead us to the present.

 

(From the Woods-Watson Institute, part of the 'Chosen' ARG that was just revealed.)

 

~~~

 

[DA]: What makes the Fade so interesting?

[PW]: Okay, so, the Fade—bear with me, this gets a little weird—the Fade is the spirit side of the Dragon Age universe. It’s this incredible place full of dreams and memories, imprints left behind by powerful emotions or events in our world. Solas has trained himself to do something a lot like lucid-dreaming. He goes to ancient ruins where the Veil is thin, goes to sleep, and actually experiences the history of places no one else has seen in centuries.

[DA]: Is that sort of vision accurate?

[PW]: Absolutely not. It’s based off people’s memories, right? Ask ten different witnesses at a crime scene to describe what happened, and you’ll get all kinds of conflicting information. Solas knows that everything he sees in the Fade is subjective and imperfect. It’s like a gigantic Wikipedia entry full of “[citation needed]” notes, but still, Solas has found some amazing things.

 

(From interview with Patrick Weekes about Solas)

 

~~~

 

I wonder. What is a Reaper? It's a machine, yes, and then we just dropped it. That's all we needed to know. Or was it?

I used the Raiders warehouse analogy to express that the reapers collect and store all this wisdom and memory stretching back millions of years, and it's to no purpose ...  but I see where you're coming from, and I'd buy it as a plausible explanation. 

 

In ME1 Sovereign says something like, "we are each a nation." ... In ME2 Harby exhibits a very different (to me) personality from Sovereign. That reaper on Rannoch seemed almost helpful in that it somewhat explained itself... certainly more than the arrogant dismissal from Sovereign. 

 

But until we learn about how the reapers differ structurally at the end of ME2, we are shown no other evidence that the reapers differ in any way. Certainly when it comes harvest time, they are of a single mind and purpose. 

 

Could it be how the catalyst becomes more intelligent, embodying the collected wisdom and memory of all those civilizations? 

[SwobyJ]

We are each a nation..

 

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own... you cannot even imagine it...

[SporkFu]

We are each a nation..

 

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own... you cannot even imagine it...

Emphasis yours? I read it aloud in a voice filled with wonder 

 

Dunno if I agree, but I'm open-minded. Might have been a better line from the catalyst, as long as it wasn't patronizingly said. 

[SwobyJ]

Emphasis yours? I read it aloud in a voice filled with wonder 

 

Dunno if I agree, but I'm open-minded. Might have been a better line from the catalyst, as long as it wasn't patronizingly said. 

 

IMO the Catalyst is trying to describe and show it in terms and scale that we may comprehend.

 

But that's my whole crazy theory deal, so... I digressss.

[SporkFu]

IMO the Catalyst is trying to describe and show it in terms and scale that we may comprehend.

 

But that's my whole crazy theory deal, so... I digressss.

Yeah, but he comes across like he doesn't care if we do. 

 

I don't mind discussing crazy theories. We're in the purgatory between old trilogy and new game, so what else is there to do? 

 

Anyway, I brought it all up as a counterpoint to the above discussion to the catalyst possibly being immature. I don't buy that, not after millions of years of collected wisdom and memories coursing through its brain. Is it that a synthetic can't possibly understand what it means to be organic either? Time is immaterial to a synthetic but after millions of years of gathering data, why would it be 'immature' ? If it hasn't gained something yet, is there any reason to think it will? Or are we just lab rats to it, and shep is the first one to reach the end of the maze? 

[Reorte]

Considering that any sort of "noble" purpose is entirely in contradiction to the way they've acted all throughout the series (the Reapers' behaviour way oversteps coldhearted and indfifferent and is firmly in arrogant and sadistic territory), no.

There needed to be some rationale for their behaviour though, and one that made sense. Whilst there's an appeal in keeping the mystery in the end that makes for an unsatisfying result because it leaves me thinking "the author doesn't know what it is, he's just made up some big bad guys and not thought any more." Whilst no mystery ever survives the reveal revealing it is the lesser evil.

I'm not at all keen on the "different intelligence / different morality" position either. It can be done but is very, very hard to pull off because it requires the writer to be able to write something that genuinely stands in that place. Doing random things and saying "Ah, it's an intelligence beyond us!" is just lazy. No, it's not an intelligence beyond us, it's just an alien being random.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, but he comes across like he doesn't care if we do.

Still the bad guy, so this doesn't matter. Dark angels be dark angels.
 

I don't mind discussing crazy theories. We're in the purgatory between old trilogy and new game, so what else is there to do? 
 
Anyway, I brought it all up as a counterpoint to the above discussion to the catalyst possibly being immature. I don't buy that, not after millions of years of collected wisdom and memories coursing through its brain. Is it that a synthetic can't possibly understand what it means to be organic either? Time is immaterial to a synthetic but after millions of years of gathering data, why would it be 'immature' ? If it hasn't gained something yet, is there any reason to think it will? Or are we just lab rats to it, and shep is the first one to reach the end of the maze?

 

Its the whole Christian mythos of a God needing to come down to Earth as Man if there is any hope for us with Sin.

 

Mass...Effect.

 

There are some exclusive benefits - or as Citadel DLC might have put it, "Strong, silent, and willing to charge into battle along the most exclusive boulevards." - to having a limited perspective. For example, there is a lot of discussion about what humanity's POV of life would be once/if we obtain aging immorality. Something will change, something will be different, and for the most part, we may well 'lose' a perspective that helped us try to become immortal in the first place. Hypothetically.

 

'Catalyst' looks for a solution that very well may have been fixed if it got off its ..ahem sovereign... perch  and lived among the commoners with a very mortal and organic perspective. But no... he'd have to let go of the controls for that, even a bit... no way.

[KaiserShep]

@ImaginaryMatter
@KaiserShep
@sH0tgUn jUliA
I see. So in addition to not liking the actual story we're given, you'd construct versions of it just to make fun of it. Carry on.

 

I didn't say I didn't like the story, but my description is pretty much what happens to the people being used to make a reaper, though admittedly I was being a bit glib. Even Shepard can tell the Destroyer that the people they took to create them have been long dead. I mean, look at Lilith. She dies screaming in bloody agony in a pod. There is no transcendence; it's all death, and if somehow their minds are kept intact through some weird techno-voodoo process, it's probably also hell. You are right, however. They didn't just grind people up. The crazy guy in Fargo just ground someone up. The reality of the reapers is much worse.

 

I play the game way too often to dislike its story (on my 20th playthrough). Heck I'd even go so far to say that ME3 is actually an improvement over its predecessor in terms of how its story is put together, but I'm highly critical of everything, even the things that I like.

[KaiserShep]

The child is whatever you want him to be.

An intrusion.

An innocent.

And maybe, an ally.

 

"Let me help you"

"Get out of here!"

 

This scene bugs me because the paraphrase of the lower option suggests a harsher tone, but they're exactly the same. It's tantamount to autodialogue activated through a dialogue prompt, like ME1.

[Obadiah]

Wait, I need clarification please. Are you saying synthetics aren't capable of commanding massive power, or is it that that's how shep perceives synthetics? Or is it something else?

Its just a question of why the devs picked the kid model for the Catalyst. What was that choice trying to represent or symbolize about the Catalyst or the Reaper?

One more idea: they're the child and we're the adult. They represent power far above what we have achieved. Maybe the kid is there to represent guidance (or punishment) we have to give to grow as a "family".

[Khelish]

I personally would prefer a vague motive for the Reapers. But I don't mind the canon reason for the harvest.