2113 réponses à ce sujet

[darkmanifest]

 

The city elves would likely have a far more advanced view on how to deal with humans and how to live in the modern Thedosian world.  I think it would be they, and not the Dalish, that would have a far greater chance at nation building.

 

Again, the writers can do anything they want.

However, my real answer would fault the Dalish entirely.  The Dalish are a backward people.  Not because they embrace nature, but because they are literally always looking backward.  The Eluvians are not an answer to their problems, ancient elvish history is not an answer to their problems, old prejudices and myths based on how the bad humans took away our special status isn't an answer to their problems. 

 

The Dalish don't "look back" just for the sake of nostalgia, they try to remember the past because there's incredibly valuable knowledge there that can prove useful to the present.  For example, the Feynriel quest in DA2.  The Circle had no idea what to do with Feynriel because they had lost all knowledge of dreamer mages.  A Dalish Keeper, however, whose job it is to scrape together lost knowledge, was able to piece together a means to help Feynriel get his crap together and prevent the waste of an incredibly rare and powerful type of mage.

 

And the Eluvians - as much as I despise the way Merrill ignored everything else her clan needed from her for the sake of a mirror nobody asked her to make her pet project, it's true that if the Dalish could somehow recover the magic behind Eluvians, they could give a mirror to every Keeper to use for communication.  All the disparate clans would be able to instantly share information across distances, instead of trading outdated information every ten years.  They could maintain the safety of living separately without suffering the loss of connection to each other.

 

As for elven history in general, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.  The Dalish remember what happened the last couple of times they settled in static places together, and so they learned from it enough to become wandering tribes.  This solution isn't perfect, but it's scores better than what the Alienages are subjected to, all thanks to an effort to ignore the past, and now humans mass-murder Alienage children at their leisure - which the "backwards" Dalish probably told them would happen.

 

The past informs the present and shapes the future, those things aren't mutually exclusive.  While it's important not to live in the past, it's also important not to discard it entirely.  Even the city elves know that, which is why Alienages still have those huge vhenadahl in the center, so they remember where they come from, that being elven means more than being a poor imitation of humanity.

[Icy Magebane]

It looks pretty much the same from where I'm standing. Blacks in the United States had it as bad if not worse as elves for most of their history. They never started any large scale violent rebellion and the overwhelming majority of them never tried to create their own homeland, nor did they want to.

 

Dismissing an argument without even trying to argue it does not speak well of your own case.

Fine.

 

It looks that way because you want to make a controversial comparison, nothing more.  First off, the elves are not slaves, they are more akin to refugees in every nation other than Tevinter.  There is no basis for comparing them to the most recent historical instance of institutionalized slavery.  They are not considered property and have the freedom to wander around the woods as much as they want so long as they don't try to settle down.  Secondly, we are dealing with a fictional world in which fantasy races can control magic and commune with spirits... how is that in any way analogous to a real world situation that basically comes down to who has the chains and gunpowder?  Third, the slaves brought over from Africa are not natives of North America, and thus there is no expectation that they would claim ownership of any amount of land on that continent. 

 

Is that enough examples?  It's a flawed comparison that has nothing to do with this conversation.  Saying that "well, the African slaves didn't have a violent uprising so that is the path the elves should take," is just... I mean there's just nothing worthwhile in this contention...

[Eveangaline]

Do the dwarves need a homeland? They're constantly fighting darskpawn for crappy underground areas full of giant tainted spiders. They should just come to human lands, submit to human rule, and be our plucky merchents selling fine dwarven crafts.

[Dean_the_Young]

?

 

I'm not sure I understand your point.  There is no debate that the city elves have been oppressed for centuries.  This is a fact.  I don't consider my definition of progress to be arbitrary when it is currently legal to execute large numbers of elves without trials or even being accused of any specific crime.  This has been the case for hundreds of years.  Another historical fact.  What exactly is the problem with what I'm saying?

 

The point is that if you don't know where to start measuring, you can't possibly measure progress or tell if there was a lack of it.

 

Your frame of reference has implicitly claimed that elves haven't made any social gains. You do not know this. The current status of elves can easily be different from what it was one hundred years ago, or two hundred, and especially in the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Dales.

 

If the current status of the city elves hasn't changed in seven hundred years, that's one thing. If the current status of the city elves is greatly increased compared to where it was seven hundred years ago, that is an entirely different context politically and socially.

 

 

Do you honestly believe that inaction is the best option because it might not work out for the better?  Are you essentially just advocating cowardice because a rebellion is, in your opinion, unlikely to succeed?

 

Do I get to set out my own position, or will you assign a motive and buzzwords for me regardless?

 

All moral decision making at a large scale should be responsible. All responsible decision making should weigh costs, benefits, and the likelood of each. One of the common conceits of modern liberalism is the idea that any action is better than inaction- the idea of 'don't just do stand there, do something.'

 

I firmly believe this is a harmful trait when dealing with dangerous and complicated affairs, especially as delicate and dangerous as cultural conflicts such as race. It is very hard to take actions that lead to social changes that you want. It is very, very, very easy to take actions that lead to social changes that are very, very bad for you. If actions are more likely to make things worse for you than better, then they are bad actions. No matter how cowardly 'inaction' may be labeled as.

 

If the elves, as a collective, want social reform, there are a good number of things they themselves need to do first. Organizing themselves as a collective would be a very good start. Taking the opportunity to start a race war they are not prepared to wage, not equipped to fight, and not organized to lead is not.

[Gwydden]

It's the fact that you can't act as though real world humans and society is be an exact parallel to a fictitious continent where magic and elves exist.

The status quo for elves under human rule has remained reprehensible for the better part of a millennia. I think the elves deserve a place where they can be free of this tyranny.

Segregation is not a sign of progress. Integration is.

 

I have absolutely no reason to think society in Thedas behaves differently than on Earth, and I will keep assuming the same rules apply for both until I am given a reason to believe otherwise.

What because ?

Why do you think sovereignty is necessary?

[MisterJB]

I wonder if people claiming now it's the perfect time for the elves to conquer the Dales are aware the Dales is where Gaspard and Celene are having it out? Nearly their whole armies are there.

If anything, this is the worst possible time. If the elves get themselves involves and attempt to dislodge both armies, they'll either:

a) Be horribly massacred.

b )make some gains, at which point Gaspard and Celene will organize a truce until the elves are dealt with, and then they'll be horribly massacred.

[TheKomandorShepard]

We have two conflicting historical accounts as to how that war started, and who struck first.


No one is flawless, that's true, but I think the elves would focus on building a nation for themselves, first and foremost.


I have little doubt it wouldn't be a perfect society, but I can see an innumerable number of men, women, and children benefitting in a region where they aren't at the mercy of humans who see them as "less than people".

 

1.Many users said that WoT confirms chantry/human version.

 

2.As every nation doesn't change fact things i said still there and are strong.

 

3.In the end you replacing one group that abuse second group with second group that abuse first group.In fact you sacrifice more than you save becuase first you have to fight for independence then you give elves chance to abuse humans (and there is much more humans than elves) and in the end that will end with war. Of course you may don't care about humans then it is different talk.

[MisterJB]

Segregation is not a sign of progress. Integration is.

Only according to today's values which are open for change.

If the elves did manage to create a state where they could prosper while also mantaining cordial relations with human neighbors, many would consider that a sign of progress.

[Dean_the_Young]

Using humor to cover the fact that your argument has no merit? 

 

What? That wasn't an argument against anyone, expect possibly any Americans silly enough to believe the Yanks need their own racial homeland. The United States is a nation of ethnic minorities that got together to pretend they were some other, bigger ethnic group (or just dropped the ethnic identifier all together). The very idea of 'white' America is one of the more amusing artificial constructs of race in American history, since the category has progressively enlarged for centuries.

 

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you seem to be a staunch supporter of cowardice.

 

Oh dear, someone on the internet has challenged my femininity. My ego is shamed and my soul laid bare.

 

[Gwydden]

 

It looks that way because you want to make a controversial comparison, nothing more.  First off, the elves are not slaves, they are more akin to refugees in every nation other than Tevinter.  There is no basis for comparing them to the most recent historical instance of institutionalized slavery.  They are not considered property and have the freedom to wander around the woods as much as they want so long as they don't try to settle down.

But elves were slaves, same as African Americans. I'm not talking about that period of time, but the one that followed.

 

 

Secondly, we are dealing with a fictional world in which fantasy races can control magic and commune with spirits... how is that in any way analogous to a real world situation that basically comes down to who has the chains and gunpowder? 

By that logic, why should we expect objects to fall in Thedas? Or people to die when their heads are cut off? I did see a lot of people complaining about Leliana resurrecting after her head was cut off. Maybe in Thedas that's not lethal! It's a fantasy world, so you never know.

 

The same rules of the real world apply to a fantasy world unless and until we are given an indication that is not the case.

 

 

Third, the slaves brought over from Africa are not natives of North America, and thus there is no expectation that they would claim ownership of any amount of land on that continent. 

So you're saying that, since some of my ancestors come from Africa, I have a claim to lands there? Because that notion is just as ridiculous as saying elves have a claim to land in Thedas because someone who belonged to the same race they did owned that land millennia ago.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wonder if people claiming now it's the perfect time for the elves to conquer the Dales are aware the Dales is where Gaspard and Celene are having it out? Nearly their whole armies are there.

If anything, this is the worst possible time. If the elves get themselves involves and attempt to dislodge both armies, they'll either:

a) Be horribly massacred.

b )make some gains, at which point Gaspard and Celene will organize a truce until the elves are dealt with, and then they'll be horribly massacred.

 

You forgot:

 

c) Either Celen or Gaspard is maneuvered into fighting the elves in earnest, while the other stands by to profit from the weakening of both sides.

[Vapaa]

 

Why do you think sovereignty is necessary?

 

To be masters of their own destiny, as it stands the elves are subjugated to human rule, so they are not masters of themselves.

[Gwydden]

Only according to today's values which are open for change.

If the elves did manage to create a state where they could prosper while also mantaining cordial relations with human neighbors, many would consider that a sign of progress.

Sure. And if I manage to convince radical right-wing conservatives gay marriage is perfectly okay and doesn't affect them in any way that would be a sign of progress.

 

Sadly, the world just doesn't work that way. You rarely get cordial relationships by segregating people. That only emphasizes the idea that they're different and should be kept separate.

[Icy Magebane]

All moral decision making at a large scale should be responsible. All responsible decision making should weigh costs, benefits, and the likelood of each. One of the common conceits of modern liberalism is the idea that any action is better than inaction- the idea of 'don't just do stand there, do something.'

 

I firmly believe this is a harmful trait when dealing with dangerous and complicated affairs, especially as delicate and dangerous as cultural conflicts such as race. It is very hard to take actions that lead to social changes that you want. It is very, very, very easy to take actions that lead to social changes that are very, very bad for you. If actions are more likely to make things worse for you than better, then they are bad actions. No matter how cowardly 'inaction' may be labeled as.

 

If the elves, as a collective, want social reform, there are a good number of things they themselves need to do first. Organizing themselves as a collective would be a very good start. Taking the opportunity to start a race war they are not prepared to wage, not equipped to fight, and not organized to lead is not.

I see where you're coming from now... yeah okay, you make a fair point, but I'm still not sure if it's wise to let this opportunity pass.  As far as whether or not "progress" has been made, it really seems to me that there hasn't been any... so, I don't think I can get behind that.  However, I readily accept that this is a very risky move that could ultimately backfire, but IMO there really is no alternative.  Waiting for humans to change is risky too...

[Gwydden]

To be masters of their own destiny, as it stands the elves are subjugated to human rule, so they are not masters of themselves.

Human commoners are subjugated to the rule of human nobility, so they are not masters of themselves. Therefore, to be masters of their own destiny and by your own assertion, they should achieve sovereignty and create their own separate country.

Waiting for humans to change is risky too...

Racism usually goes both ways.

[MisterJB]

Sure. And if I manage to convince radical right-wing conservatives gay marriage is perfectly okay and doesn't affect them in any way that would be a sign of progress.

 

Sadly, the world just doesn't work that way. You rarely get cordial relationships by segregating people. That only emphasizes the fact that they're different and should be kept separate.

Forcibly mashing different people together has also an history of yelding very poor results. Who has better relations? Ferelden and Orzammar or humans and elves?

Regardless, I wasn't expressing an opinion. Merely stating that if we interpret progress as happiness for both sides, then neither integration not segregation are synonims of it. Rather, which is the more effective way of achieving progress is open for debate.

[Gwydden]

Forcibly mashing different people together has also an history of yelding very poor results. Who has better relations? Ferelden and Orzammar or humans and elves?

No one wants to forcibly mash different people. City elves are already "mashed" with humans, they've been for a long time. Dalish elves can hide in their forest while the world passes by them. Or they can get off the high horse and realize isolationism only hurts them in the long run.

 

If the elves create a country of their own, do you seriously believe that isn't very, very likely to just strain relationships with humans and maybe lead to another war instead of having everyone be happy?

[Icy Magebane]

 

Oh dear, someone on the internet has challenged my femininity. My ego is shamed and my soul laid bare.

Um, you made a bizarre joke in the middle of a serious discussion.  How else should I have viewed that?  That retort was very impressive, btw.  Way to be.

[Tevinter Rose]

Segregation is not a sign of progress. Integration is.

 

I have absolutely no reason to think society in Thedas behaves differently than on Earth, and I will keep assuming the same rules apply for both until I am given a reason to believe otherwise.

Why do you think sovereignty is necessary?

 

Society in Thedas does behave differently than on Earth, for one they have magic and we don't. Most of the problems in Thedas revolve around magic, I mean there's a giant breach in the sky pouring demons and that's affecting everyone in Thedas. There is no real world equivalent to that.

[MisterJB]

No one wants to forcibly mash different people. City elves are already "mashed" with humans, they've been for a long time. Dalish elves can hide in their forest while the world passes by them. Or they can get off the high horse and realize isolationism only hurts them in the long run.

 

If the elves create a country of their own, do you seriously believe that isn't very, very likely to just strain relationships with humans and maybe lead to another war instead of having everyone be happy?

No, I don't. Which is why my suggestion, in the context of Orlais only, is for the elves to support Gaspard, ascend him to the throne, sack the estates of the Halamshiral nobles who supported Celene, give them to elves on the excuse they proved loyal to the Emperor and have the Dales be an elven arling still under the authority of the Orlesian Throne. This because elves are already the majority within the Dales.

[Dean_the_Young]

I see where you're coming from now... yeah okay, you make a fair point, but I'm still not sure if it's wise to let this opportunity pass.  As far as whether or not "progress" has been made, it really seems to me that there hasn't been any... so, I don't think I can get behind that.  However, I readily accept that this is a very risky move that could ultimately backfire, but IMO there really is no alternative.  Waiting for humans to change is risky too...

 

If you can't think of ways both safer and more reliable for the elves to increase their social standing in the current crisis, your imagination is limited and you certainly wouldn't be qualified to be making such decisions, were there any qualifications for society-altering decision making. But taking acknowledged 'very risky' moves simply because you can't think of an alternative is, in a word, bad.

 

If the city elves were organized enough to act as a polity, their best avenue for social reform both in terms of reliability of success and mitigation of consequences would be to wait and jump in the civil war in support of whichever side offered the best bargain. Gaspard doesn't love elves, but he would honor his agreements in spirit and deed. Celene is fond of reforms for the elves in abstract, and elves supporting her against Gaspard's nobility would both entitle them to rewards from the soon-to-be weakened Gaspard faction (a political vacume for them to fill in part) and give Celene more political capital to continue reforms with. Race war is avoided, the victors are grateful rather than resentful towards the city elves, and the more critical the elven support was the greater the reward.

 

Of course, there are risks to this as well. Picking the right side, for one. Not being too greedy in the dealings (as in, not making demands that the other sides aren't prepared to give). And, of course, having a unified elven polity- which does not exist at this time. But that was something the elves had the ability to change for some time now.

 

Is it as flashy as a winner take all stance towards a race war for an elven homeland? Thankfully no. Is it far less disastrous a crapshoot? Sure. If the city elves pick the wrong side, they lose a political hen fight and are suppressed as potentially treasonous bastards: cities are sacked, but submission and suspicion are likely. If the city elves lose a race war, cities are sacked and retaliatory massacres and ethnic cleansing are quite possible.

[Gwydden]

Society in Thedas does behave differently than on Earth, for one they have magic and we don't. Most of the problems in Thedas revolve around magic, I mean there's a giant breach in the sky pouring demons and that's affecting everyone in Thedas. There is no real world equivalent to that.

And magic plays into the tensions between elves and humans how?

 

No, I don't. Which is why my suggestion, in the context of Orlais only, is for the elves to support Gaspard, ascend him to the throne, sack the estates of the Halamshiral nobles who supported Celene, give them to elves on the excuse they proved loyal to the Emperor and have the Dales be an elven arling still under the authority of the Orlesian Throne. This because elves are already the majority within the Dales.

That's not a bad idea actually. Harsh, but they live in a harsh time.

[Vapaa]

Human commoners are subjugated to the rule of human nobility, so they are not masters of themselves.

 

They have my full support for making the revolution and establishing a republic.

 

Therefore, to be masters of their own destiny and by your own assertion, they should achieve sovereignty and create their own separate country.

 

Status is a societal discrimination, changing society can change the status dynamic....but elves and humans are different species, there's no way to make them equal in a single country.

[Dean_the_Young]

Um, you made a bizarre joke in the middle of a serious discussion.  How else should I have viewed that? 

 

 

As an adult.

[Gwydden]

They have my full support for making the revolution and establishing a republic.

 

Status is a societal discrimination, changing society can change the status dynamic....but elves and humans are different species, there's no way to make them equal in a single country.

No, they're different races, and different races get together just fine all the time. Even in Thedas: Llomerryn, dwarven embassies in Tevinter, ancient ruins in the Brecilian Forest...

 

Racism is also societal discrimination.