2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Vapaa]

No, they're different races

 

No, they're different species.

[Tevinter Rose]

It looks pretty much the same from where I'm standing. Blacks in the United States had it as bad as if not worse than elves for most of their history. They never started any large scale violent rebellion and the overwhelming majority of them never tried to create their own homeland, nor did they want to.

 

Dismissing an argument without even trying to argue it does not speak well of your own case.

 

Black people in the US consistently rebelled. Some did it more violently, others non violently, a successful revolution requires both. Thats how we have an MLK and a Malcolm X, two black people at the same time both fighting for the same things, equal rights, but just going about it completely different. I won't argue which way was better because the resulting outcome proved that both ideas worked. But with that all being said I still don't think Black people are equivalent to elves in a medieval setting.

[Gwydden]

No, they're different species.

Where do you get this idea from?

 

Biologically? They can reproduce and the result is fertile offspring, so they are the same species.

 

Lore-wise? They are always referred as races within the game, never species.

 

Common sense? They look virtually identical. Their only significant physical differences are ridiculously small. 

[Tevinter Rose]

And magic plays into the tensions between elves and humans how?

 

 

Human templars consider dalish mages apostates

[FiveThreeTen]

If the Dales were given to the Elves, I think one of the biggest issue would the access to the Waking Sea. I don't see Orlais too keen on giving up their territorial continuity with the East (well, if they are still able to negociate at that point).

[Gwydden]

Black people in the US consistently rebelled. Some did it more violently, others non violently, a successful revolution requires both. Thats how we have an MLK and a Malcolm X, two black people at the same time both fighting for the same things, equal rights, but just going about it completely different. I won't argue which way was better because the resulting outcome proved that both ideas worked. But with that all being said I still don't think Black people are equivalent to elves in a medieval setting.

There was never any large scale uprising of black people. Malcolm X talked a big game, but his wasn't a violent movement. And I am not saying they are equivalent, just that they are similar cases and we can make some deductions by comparing them.

Human templars consider dalish mages apostates

Rather insignificant and irrelevant in the big picture. City elves are not even big fans of magic themselves.

[Vapaa]

Where do you get this idea from?

 

Biologically? They can reproduce and the result is fertile offspring, so they are the same species.

 

They are not biologically the same; the eluvian world affects elves and non-elves differently.

 

Lore-wise? They are always referred as races within the game, never species?

 

DA's use of "race" =/= RL's use of "race"

 

Common sense? They look virtually identical. Their only significant physical differences are ridiculously small. 

 

Common sense has no scientific relevance.

[Icy Magebane]

If the city elves were organized enough to act as a polity, their best avenue for social reform both in terms of reliability of success and mitigation of consequences would be to wait and jump in the civil war in support of whichever side offered the best bargain. Gaspard doesn't love elves, but he would honor his agreements in spirit and deed. Celene is fond of reforms for the elves in abstract, and elves supporting her against Gaspard's nobility would both entitle them to rewards from the soon-to-be weakened Gaspard faction (a political vacume for them to fill in part) and give Celene more political capital to continue reforms with. Race war is avoided, the victors are grateful rather than resentful towards the city elves, and the more critical the elven support was the greater the reward.

 

Of course, there are risks to this as well. Picking the right side, for one. Not being too greedy in the dealings (as in, not making demands that the other sides aren't prepared to give). And, of course, having a unified elven polity- which does not exist at this time. But that was something the elves had the ability to change for some time now.

Okay, let me make this really clear:  I do not agree with the idea of attempting to work with humans to solve this problem.  Period.  Your alternative is simply another form of the system we currently have, except now the elves are choosing which master they serve.  They are still at the bottom of society, there is no guarantee that their aid in the war will change humanity's view of their race, and at the end of the day, any deals that they might have made with the new ruler of Orlais could simply be revoked.  How many humans would really care if their leader didn't  honor the agreement?  You accuse me of recklessness when your entire plan hinges on the good will of humans, a race that has given the elves no reason to trust them.

 

Since there's no reason to believe any alliance with humans would be honored, my ideal situation would involve the unification of the elves and a military conquest of the Dales.  You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the willingness of humans to share power...

[Tevinter Rose]

There was never any large scale uprising of black people. Malcolm X talked a big game, but his wasn't a violent movement. And I am not saying they are equivalent, just that they are similar cases and we can make some deductions by comparing them.

Rather insignificant and irrelevant in the big picture. City elves are not even big fans of magic themselves.

 

There are city elves who join circles so clearly they are somewhat involved in magic. I'm not saying magic is the main cause of tension but its one of the many many things dalish elves and city elves have to worry about concerning humans

[Gwydden]

They are not biologically the same; the eluvian world affects elves and non-elves differently.

Magic! Or even if it was science (fiction), it could be explained easily enough.

 

And if you're going to use biology, try to use it right: they can reproduce, and so can their offspring. Therefore, they are the same species.

DA's use of "race" =/= RL's use of "race"

Says who?

Common sense has no scientific relevance.

If you approach the problem with science, they are the same species. If you approach it scientifically, their differences are still minuscule.

 

I won't continue this conversation, because it's somewhat irrelevant and off-topic.

[Mistic]

Okay, let me make this really clear:  I do not agree with the idea of attempting to work with humans to solve this problem.  Period.  Your alternative is simply another form of the system we currently have, except now the elves are choosing which master they serve.  They are still at the bottom of society, there is no guarantee that their aid in the war will change humanity's view of their race, and at the end of the day, any deals that they might have made with the new ruler of Orlais could simply be revoked.  How many humans would really care if their leader didn't  honor the agreement?  You accuse me of recklessness when your entire plan hinges on the good will of humans, a race that has given the elves no reason to trust them.

 

Since there's no reason to believe any alliance with humans would be honored, my ideal situation would involve the unification of the elves and a military conquest of the Dales.  You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the willingness of humans to share power...

 

As a race, that may be so. As individuals? Yes, at the individual level, trust is possible. Many try to point out the end of The Dales as an example of human treachery, yet it was the humans who honored their deal and gave the elves The Dales in the first place. That "treachery" was carried out by humans who weren't related to Andraste and Maferath at all and were separated by more than three centuries. Past generations can't be hold accountable for things that future generations did, and the opposite is also true.

 

The question can't be if humans can be trusted not to wage another Exalted March, since nobody can sign any contract in the name of the whole human race. There's only one question that can be asked: can Celene and Gaspard be trusted in the same way as Andraste and Maferath? If the answer is 'no', then it's rebellion all the way. However, if the answer is 'yes' or even 'maybe', then it's time to think of different alternatives, even if in the end war is chosen as the best option.

[Vapaa]

Magic! Or even if it was science (fiction), it could be explained easily enough.

 

In a a setting where magic exist, things can indeed be explain by...gasp ! magic.

 

And if you're going to use biology, try to use it right: they can reproduce, and so can their offspring. Therefore, they are the same species.

 

Biology: The study of living organisms, divided into many specialized fields that cover their morphology, physiology, anatomy, behaviour, origin, and distribution. (Oxford dictionary)

 

Biology is not limited to genetics

 

 

Says who?

 

Races in the DAverse are used to talk about elves, dwarves, quanaris and humans, but not about different kind of humans as it is (mis) used in our world.

[Dean_the_Young]

Okay, let me make this really clear:  I do not agree with the idea of attempting to work with humans to solve this problem.  Period.

 

Humans are half of all Human-Elven relations. As humans are always going to have a relationship with elves as long as both parties exist, refusing to work with humans is refusing to address half the problem. If your solution for this Gordian Knot is to cut out one side or the others, then we have much greater problems at hand than the persecution of second or third class citizens.

 

How many humans would really care if their leader didn't  honor the agreement?  You accuse me of recklessness when your entire plan hinges on the good will of humans, a race that has given the elves no reason to trust them.

 

 

If the city elves support the winner and the winner reneges on the deal, the city elves lose the casualties of the support, establish themselves as an actual polity with credible influence and an established martial capability, and do not lose their current station and rights. They are not socially worse off, and are organizationally better off by having created a political identity and credible factional base from which to work in the future.

 

If the city elves lose a race war, their homes will be pillaged and burned, their women raped as spoils of war and conquest, their men executed in mass or forced to work in the name of reparations and repair, their limited rights and hard won reforms rolled back by decades if not centuries, and every necessary evil and crime of the revolution revisted and paid back tenfold as a cycle of racial violence is lit anew. The very idea of a elven polity will be an anathema to the state for decades to come so long as 'elven unity' is synonymous with 'elven revolution' in living and institutional memory, and all future reformers will have to work even harder to overcome yet another vindicated distrust and animosity.

 

Yeah, you're reckless.

 

 

Your alternative is simply another form of the system we currently have, except now the elves are choosing which master they serve.  They are still at the bottom of society, there is no guarantee that their aid in the war will change humanity's view of their race, and at the end of the day, any deals that they might have made with the new ruler of Orlais could simply be revoked. 

 

I'm sorry- you advocate a potentially catastrophic race war with precious little going for it in the long or short term and you object to strengthening political position because there's 'no guarantee' and that it could be rolled back in the future?

 

That's silly.

 

Arguing that the elves would still be subordinate would be more compelling, were it not for the fact that elves will be subordinate regardless of who wins or loses, even other elves. Someone will always be scrubbing the chamber pots... and if it isn't elves, it will only be because they're forcing someone else (probably humans) to do it instead. Which isn't reform, but reversal. Lasting reforms aren't sudden and dramatic upheavels and reversal- they are incrimental.

 

 

Since there's no reason to believe any alliance with humans would be honored, my ideal situation would involve the unification of the elves and a military conquest of the Dales. 

 

Your ideal situation is a fantasy that does not exist as a plausibility in the Dragon Age universe, where humans are known to honor alliances (even with elves) and the elves are not unified (and lack the political ability to create such a consensus) and where two of the three most powerful military forces in the Dales belong to nationalists (and the third most powerful may well be the Inquisition that will likely align with one of them).

 

Since we are in the Dragon Age forums, I would assume we would want to talk about what's actually likely to work in the Dragon Age universe.

 

I'm just saying, if you're going to have an ideal situation you could pick better. You should just head-canon away the racial problems while you're at it.

 

 

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the willingness of humans to share power...

 

 

...because Humans have been shown to be willing to deal with elves and give them concessions and more than they normally get in exchange for things they (the humans) want and need.

[Treacherous J Slither]

"Do the elves really need a homeland?"

 

I think what the elves need is to be treated with the same dignity and respect given to the other races and to have the same rights. The other races have earned theirs though. The dwarves with their mining and manufacturing, and the Qunari with their martial prowess. People may be hateful and fearful of the Qunari but certainly no one is pushing them around. Also, one of the only reasons why no human group or nation has taken over Orzammar for it's riches is it's location. A deep, dank hole full of darkspawn. If they were above ground like the elves, they probably would have been conquered as well.

 

What do the elves have to offer that some other race isn't already doing but better? Woodland themed manufactured items? Ancient fairy tales of a time before Man? How can they get on equal footing with the other races? I don't believe they will be able to unless they are given a chance to grow and develop on their own. Some large body of land off the coast of Thedas would be ideal. That doesn't seem likely though. Returning the Dales to them is a possibility. A sovereign nation that doesn't dislocate or discriminate and mistreat the people currently residing there. A place of tolerance and acceptance.

 

Now what country would make this deal? Orlais? Unlikely but possible depending on the ruler. Fereldan? Possible. But how would this vulnerable fledgeling nation defend itself from invasion? Treaties with it's neighbors? Why would they agree? What do the elves have to offer? Aside from a powerful guilt trip? Maybe it'll happen anyway though lol.

 

My Dalish Inquisitor will he hellbent on using the newfound power of his position to make some real progress for his people. Reclaim Arlathan maybe. Roleplaying aside though I personally think the elves are screwed.

[Icy Magebane]

As a race, that may be so. As individuals? Yes, at the individual level, trust is possible. Many try to point out the end of The Dales as an example of human treachery, yet it was the humans who honored their deal and gave the elves The Dales in the first place. That "treachery" was carried out by humans who weren't related to Andraste and Maferath at all and were separated by more than three centuries. Past generations can't be hold accountable for things that future generations did, and the opposite is also true.

 

The question can't be if humans can be trusted not to wage another Exalted March, since nobody can sign any contract in the name of the whole human race. There's only one question that can be asked: can Celene and Gaspard be trusted in the same way as Andraste and Maferath? If the answer is 'no', then it's rebellion all the way. However, if the answer is 'yes' or even 'maybe', then it's time to think of different alternatives, even if in the end war is chosen as the best option.

The problem is that individuals, even the leaders of nations, take a back seat to the majority.  Even leaders who rule by "divine right" can be overthrown.  I am just having a hard time picturing the majority of nobles and commoners in any nation on Thedas being okay with the elves being given land, equal rights, etc... Even if Celene and Gaspard genuinely intend to keep their word, what's to stop the nobles from revolting?  They seem pretty happy with keeping the elves as a servant race... I am not saying that such an outcome is impossible, but I do not share your optimism.

 

The real issue is that Thedas is very unstable right now... once the Chantry is restored or replaced, the Circles restored or replaced, the Orlesian ruler restored or replaced... everything goes back to the way it was and nothing will have changed for the elves.  I mean, just how long are they supposed to wait?  So far, there hasn't been anyone among the elves who has come forth to be the champion of peaceful social change... so... does that mean it's not coming?

 

I just am not seeing any reason to keep waiting.  That's pretty much the bottom line for me... if it was going to work out peacefully, it would have by now.

[MisterJB]

What do the elves have to offer that some other race isn't already doing but better?

Prostitution?

 

I'm not joking hear me out. Elves are said to be attractive to humans.

In Filipe Faria's books, the situation is very similar to the one in DA. The humans have pushed the equivalent of elves and dwarves into the areas they didn't want to inhabit.

So, the solution a group of elves came up with was to create a city that served the darkest desires of humanity for a price. Elven prostitutes, gladiatorials combats, assassins for hire, etc. As a result, they were left alone with wealthy humans coming from countries all around the world to partake in the forbidden pleasures of the one elven city.

 

Of course, it was more complex than what I am describing and it did backfire on the elves because their society became extremely cutthroat but they were never invaded.

[LobselVith8]

1.Many users said that WoT confirms chantry/human version.

It's a truncated entry that doesn't specify who started the war or who actually struck the first blow. I even copied the entry about the fall of the Dales from WoT into my Dalish thread a while back to address that it's intentionally ambiguous about who started the war.

2.As every nation doesn't change fact things i said still there and are strong.

The Breach has put everything in disarray, so I think now would be the optimal opportunity for the elves to reclaim the Dales, and give all the elves across the continent a beacon of hope by establishing a homeland where the elves can truly be free.

3.In the end you replacing one group that abuse second group with second group that abuse first group.In fact you sacrifice more than you save becuase first you have to fight for independence then you give elves chance to abuse humans (and there is much more humans than elves) and in the end that will end with war. Of course you may don't care about humans then it is different talk.

More elves live in the Dales than humans, and that was before an influx of humans started to leave the Dales because of the Orlesian civil war. I also don't see the elves sacrificing one master for another by having a kingdom where they can have self-determination over their lives, with elven leaders representing their interests, and not be horrifically subjugated under human rule.

[Icy Magebane]

Roleplaying aside though I personally think the elves are screwed.

lol... most likely, yes.  In the end this really depends on whether or not the writers are going to allow this conflict to evolve or if it will merely stagnate and become background noise among the rest of the lore.

[Icy Magebane]

Prostitution?

 

I'm not joking hear me out. Elves are said to be attractive to humans.

In Filipe Faria's books, the situation is very similar to the one in DA. The humans have pushed the equivalent of elves and dwarves into the areas they didn't want to inhabit.

So, the solution a group of elves came up with was to create a city that served the darkest desires of humanity for a price. Elven prostitutes, gladiatorials combats, assassins for hire, etc. As a result, they were left alone with wealthy humans coming from countries all around the world to partake in the forbidden pleasures of the one elven city.

 

Of course, it was more complex than what I am describing and it did backfire on the elves because their society became extremely cutthroat but they were never invaded.

Eh... no thanks, I'll take my chances on the battlefield.

[Mistic]

The problem is that individuals, even the leaders of nations, take a back seat to the majority.  Even leaders who rule by "divine right" can be overthrown.  I am just having a hard time picturing the majority of nobles and commoners in any nation on Thedas being okay with the elves being given land, equal rights, etc... Even if Celene and Gaspard genuinely intend to keep their word, what's to stop the nobles from revolting?  They seem pretty happy with keeping the elves as a servant race... I am not saying that such an outcome is impossible, but I do not share your optimism.

 

The real issue is that Thedas is very unstable right now... once the Chantry is restored or replaced, the Circles restored or replaced, the Orlesian ruler restored or replaced... everything goes back to the way it was and nothing will have changed for the elves.  I mean, just how long are they supposed to wait?  So far, there hasn't been anyone among the elves who has come forth to be the champion of peaceful social change... so... does that mean it's not coming?

 

I just am not seeing any reason to keep waiting.  That's pretty much the bottom line for me... if it was going to work out peacefully, it would have by now.

 

I understand your point, but what would the difference be if the elves wage a war and gain independence? You say that there's nobody to stop humans from not honoring their deal and sending the elves back to square one. In strict terms, yes, you're right. However, the same could be said in the independence scenario: what would stop humans from retaking the Dales back by war? As you say, nothing at all.

 

So if we accept that nobody can be trusted, it means nobody can be trusted in any situation. That means that it's a matter of interests and, again, Dean's option seems more secure.

 

In his scenario, at least the rulers have a good way to sell the deal to their subjects ("they helped us in the war!"), while in the scenario of independence war they don't have those reasons. In fact, quite the contrary, they will have reasons to invade the Dales (from "those evil elves have killed our people!" to "nothing like a war against a common enemy to unite the country after a civil war"). And let's take in mind the worst possible outcome of each scenario. In the first case, back to square one. Few rights, oppression and explotation. In the second case, the worst possible scenario is armies pillaging and plundering the elves, with numbers of casualties far larger than any rebellion. And then the same opression or even worse.

[Master Warder Z_]

In my eye? No, its become increasingly clear their time has long since faded into the sands of time.

 

Humanity is the victor between this struggle of which progenitor is entitled to the world, and thus is Humanity who should lead Thedas and indeed the world into the future. That is to say, i don't find the elves worthless, far from it. They are merely yet another people in a world dominated by Humanity, And like Tal Vasoth and Dwarves there is a role, however limited there for them.

 

 

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's a truncated entry that doesn't specify who started the war or who actually struck the first blow. I even copied the entry about the fall of the Dales from WoT into my Dalish thread a while back to address that it's intentionally ambiguous about who started the war.

No it isn't. It reeaaally isn't. Not even in the slightest... It is ambigious about how the border skirmishes started, but not the war.

[Eveangaline]

Do the humans need a homeland? If there was a sudden, magic fueled reversal of fortunes, they should probably just assimilate and listen to the elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Where do you get this idea from?

 

Biologically? They can reproduce and the result is fertile offspring, so they are the same species.

 

Lore-wise? They are always referred as races within the game, never species.

 

Common sense? They look virtually identical. Their only significant physical differences are ridiculously small. 

Lions and tigers are different species, yet they can have offspring. And we've now had a liger who has also given birth, so the "ligers are infertile" position is void. 

 

Mass Effect have the alien species referred to as race too. Are they the same species? 

 

Many animals who are different species look very similar.

[Icy Magebane]

I understand your point, but please, answer me, what would the difference be if the elves wage a war and gain independence? You say that there's nobody to stop humans from not honoring their deal and sending the elves back to square one. In strict terms, yes, you're right. However, the same could be said in the independence scenario: what would stop humans from retaking the Dales back by war? As you say, nothing at all.

 

So if we accept that nobody can be trusted, it means nobody can be trusted in any situation. That means that it's a matter of interests and, again, Dean's option seems more secure.

 

In his scenario, at least the rulers have a good way to sell the deal to their subjects ("they helped us in the war!"), while in the scenario of independence war they don't have those reasons. In fact, quite the contrary, they will have reasons to invade the Dales (from "those evil elves have killed our people!" to "nothing like a war against a common enemy to unite the country after a civil war"). And let's take in mind the worst possible outcome of each scenario. In the first case, back to square one. Few rights, oppression and explotation. In the second case, the worst possible scenario is armies pillaging and plundering the elves, with numbers of casualties far larger than any rebellion. And then the same opression or even worse.

The way I see it, if the invasion of the Dales succeeds, then the only humans the elves need to worry about will be the Orlesians.  You have to keep in mind that at this point, the Chantry has lost much of their power, most notably, the allegiance of the Templars.  While they will undoubtedly do whatever it takes to rebuild their military arm, it could take decades before they are capable of organizing an Exalted March.  Odds favor the Chantry not being able to step in until this situation has resolved itself.  Depending on what happens during the mage revolt, there could also be hundreds of trained elven former Circle mages joining this movement to retake the Dales.  Since the Dalish have no desire to imprison their mages, I find it difficult to believe that elven apostates would refuse to join in this endeavor.  Furthermore, even if the bulk of the city elves are incapable of being used as combatants, almost 100% of the Dalish are trained warriors and mages...  

 

What I'm getting at is that if the elves united, there would be a reasonable chance that a force of this size could contend with the Orlesian military, especially after a few months of letting it grow weak from infighting.  Eventually an Exalted March might be called, but would the nations of Thedas really be that eager to retake the Dales, only to have hordes of elves streaming right back into their boarders?  The humans don't want them there in the first place.  Remember, the Exalted March is not a way for the Orlesians to get what they want... it is a means for the Chantry to enforce its will.  Utilizing it simply to retake the Dales isn't in the best interest of anyone except the Orlesians, and therefore it would be difficult to justify to the various rulers of Thedas.

 

The problem with waiting is that it gives the powers that be a chance to return to full strength.  The Chantry will either recruit new Templars or reclaim the defectors and the Circles will likely be restored, and all of those potential apostate soldiers are killed or sent back to their holding cells.  Attacking now has many advantages, and although there are risks, the risk is actually lower than it can ever be expected to get...  Unless war is such an unacceptable concept that it must never be attempted, this is the time to attack.

 

Finally, you must consider that Ferelden gains nothing by joining in an effort to retake the Dales.  Either the elves are hunted to extinction or they return to Ferelden to once more hang around in the cities where they are not wanted.  Who knows how many Ferelden soldiers die in the war, and the only thing they accomplish is restoring a large section of land to Orlais and eliminating what would have been an expansive buffer zone between themselves and an ancient enemy.  So unless they just decide to help out other humans because they simply do not like elves, it would actually be smarter to ally with the Dales...