2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Feybrad]

I think Humans, Dwarves and Elves are all of the same biological Species. I would compare them to Breeds of Dogs, they can look very different, but are still of the same Species, evidenced by their Ability to produce regularly fertile Offspring. Think of them as Labradors, Pugs and Chihuahuas or something like that - I think, this comes close.

 

I would even say, Qunari are also closely related to that "Humanoid-Species" - again, as an Example, like Chimapnzees and Gorillas. There is no Evidence, that Qunari can produce offspring with the other Races, but their similar humanoid Body Structure suggests close Relation, while their other Features, like Horns for example, differ far greater than any of the other Races amongst each other.

 

So much for off Topic evolutionary Theories I am 100% sure that the Devs didn't waste a single Thought on.

[Dean_the_Young]

In his scenario, at least the rulers have a good way to sell the deal to their subjects ("they helped us in the war!"), while in the scenario of independence war they don't have those reasons. In fact, quite the contrary, they will have reasons to invade the Dales (from "those evil elves have killed our people!" to "nothing like a war against a common enemy to unite the country after a civil war"). And let's take in mind the worst possible outcome of each scenario. In the first case, back to square one. Few rights, oppression and explotation. In the second case, the worst possible scenario is armies pillaging and plundering the elves, with numbers of casualties far larger than any rebellion. And then the same opression or even worse.

 

Modest correction.

 

If the city elves were able to unite as a polity behind either claimant for the throne, they would make a significant milestone of progress regardless of whether their victor reneged on the deal or not. Whether the victor rewards them or not, the basic ability to organize as a coherent polity, with leaders and organizational discipline and a coherent identity to which city elves respect and follow, would be a monumental step forward towards the city elves being able to step forward and stand up for themselves going forward.

 

Were even just the Orlesian city elves of the Dales able to create a common identity and unified polity, it would be nothing less that the most significant political development for the elven race since the fall of the Dales and the scattering of the Dalish into decentralized, non-unified tribes. This is a development that would be hard pressed to survive in anything but the most extremely and exagerated success of an elven rebellion, but be just as hard pressed to reverse in a scenario of siding with the victor. Even if the moment of unity fades and the community drifts apart naturally in the face of dashed expectations, the simple precedent of city elves uniting, and the growth of elven leaders and individuals of proven note and local respect would be a desperately needed self-advancement for the city elves.

[Xilizhra]

Segregation is not a sign of progress. Integration is.

This isn't really about race, it's about culture. I don't agree with the Dalish on everything, but far more important than racial preservation to me is cultural preservation, and the Andrastians would simply not let Dalish culture survive if they tried to integrate.

[Icy Magebane]

If the city elves were able to unite as a polity behind either claimant for the throne, they would make a significant milestone of progress regardless of whether their victor reneged on the deal or not. Whether the victor rewards them or not, the basic ability to organize as a coherent polity, with leaders and organizational discipline and a coherent identity to which city elves respect and follow, would be a monumental step forward towards the city elves being able to step forward and stand up for themselves going forward.

 

Were even just the Orlesian city elves of the Dales able to create a common identity and unified polity, it would be nothing less that the most significant political development for the elven race since the fall of the Dales and the scattering of the Dalish into decentralized, non-unified tribes. This is a development that would be hard pressed to survive in anything but the most extremely and exagerated success of an elven rebellion, but be just as hard pressed to reverse in a scenario of siding with the victor. Even if the moment of unity fades and the community drifts apart naturally in the face of dashed expectations, the simple precedent of city elves uniting, and the growth of elven leaders and individuals of proven note and local respect would be a desperately needed self-advancement for the city elves.

That isn't nearly good enough... you're saying that it's okay if the humans break the agreement after the elves have helped them, because it will make them look slightly better in the eyes of the humans?  That they'd have gained some experience in banding together for a common goal?  How can you possibly consider that to be progress...  that doesn't even accomplish anything.

[Mistic]

Modest correction.

 

If the city elves were able to unite as a polity behind either claimant for the throne, they would make a significant milestone of progress regardless of whether their victor reneged on the deal or not. Whether the victor rewards them or not, the basic ability to organize as a coherent polity, with leaders and organizational discipline and a coherent identity to which city elves respect and follow, would be a monumental step forward towards the city elves being able to step forward and stand up for themselves going forward.

 

Were even just the Orlesian city elves of the Dales able to create a common identity and unified polity, it would be nothing less that the most significant political development for the elven race since the fall of the Dales and the scattering of the Dalish into decentralized, non-unified tribes. This is a development that would be hard pressed to survive in anything but the most extremely and exagerated success of an elven rebellion, but be just as hard pressed to reverse in a scenario of siding with the victor. Even if the moment of unity fades and the community drifts apart naturally in the face of dashed expectations, the simple precedent of city elves uniting, and the growth of elven leaders and individuals of proven note and local respect would be a desperately needed self-advancement for the city elves.

 

I'm not so sure it would be as ground-breaking as you think it may be, especially in the face of complete failure of their plans. I don't doubt its importance to the city elves, but even the Dalish, scattered around the continent as they are, manage to celebreate the Arlathvhen every ten years with little to no real effect when dealing with elven matters.

 

But I suppose that the City Elves are truly in desperate need of role models. It was very depressing in the CE Origin that the Alienage kids didn't have even elven heroes to play as.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not so sure it would be as ground-breaking as you think it may be, especially in the face of complete failure of their plans. I don't doubt its importance to the city elves, but even the Dalish, scattered around the continent as they are, manage to celebreate the Arlathvhen every ten years with little to no real effect when dealing with elven matters.

 

Organization is the single most important factor in pursuing any goal with a group of people. With it, you may not have a chance. Without it, you have no chance. There is no way for the elves as a group to credibly pursue reforms, let alone fight a war, without it. Since the closest thing the city elves have to a leader at this point is Briala, who is about as connected to the city elf reality as the 1% liberal is to the blue collar worker, building institutions is all but a necessity (and only avoiding that because social failure is an option).

 

The Dalish do not have organizational unity. They are, by deliberate intent, decentralized and disorganized. For them, it is a survival strategy: if one clan is destroyed, the others remain intact. This serves well in avoiding having a single point of failure- it does not serve them well in maintaining a polity or even a single coherent culture. Each tribe's relations depend on their own immediate neighbors, each tribe's attitudes depends on their specific members, and each tribe's culture varies bit by bit according to what they believe, what relics they have found, and what practices they adhere to. The Dalish are fragmenting, and if given enough time even the idea of a unifying Dalish culture will become as anachronistic as the idea of a single elven culture.

 

It also doesn't help that the Dalish do not have relations with humans. What community the Dalish have between the tribes is pointless in an effort for social reforms for issues that do not apply to the Dalish. The Dalish problems with humans are quite different than the city elf problems with humans.

 

 

 

 

But I suppose that the City Elves are truly in desperate need of role models. It was very depressing in the CE Origin that the Alienage kids didn't have even elven heroes to play as.

 

They used to. Then they became the Dales, followed someone's lead in an isolationist and xenophobic foreign policy that ultimately saw them destroyed, and the Chantry decided to retcon the Chant rather than let them keep Shartan as a symbol. Now the only Thedosian elf hero of note is the Garahel, and possibly the Warden.

 

 

So remember kids, losing a race war doesn't just meaning risking losing your lives and liberty. It can also mean losing your history and heroes as well.

[Xilizhra]

They used to. Then they became the Dales, followed someone's lead in an isolationist and xenophobic foreign policy that ultimately saw them destroyed, and the Chantry decided to retcon the Chant rather than let them keep Shartan as a symbol. Now the only Thedosian elf hero of note is the Garahel, and possibly the Warden.

 

 

So remember kids, losing a race war doesn't just meaning risking losing your lives and liberty. It can also mean losing your history and heroes as well.

I would disagree on that; the Chantry would never let them survive without trying to spread its influence with the main body and the Circle into the Dales, eventually conquering them via soft power. I would blame the Chantry's inability to leave other people alone on this.

[Zanallen]

The alternative is to wait for humans to realize that murder, torture, racism, discrimination, and rape are wrong... does that really seem like a good idea to anybody considering they haven't made any progress in several centuries?  Drastic times call for drastic measures.  Humans will probably not be this disorganized again for a few hundred years, so now is the best time to make a move...

 

Yes, but wouldn't the humans just seek revenge? There are a lot more humans than elves and the humans are better equipped. Even in the unlikely event that Orlais is wiped off the map, I think someone will come in and want to retake the land. If the elves didn't help during the blight and then, according to humans, strike at a weakened Orlais and then used a demon infestation to once again attack weakened humans in order to forge their own country, I figure humans would just hate the elves all the more. Unless the Chantry was completely wiped out after the war, the elves would probably be branded as deceitful traitors and face another Exalted March. They might even be completely exterminated. Instead of attacking, the elves are better off either attempting to forge a kingdom somewhere currently uninhabited or attempting a civil rights movement.

[Icy Magebane]

Yes, but wouldn't the humans just seek revenge? There are a lot more humans than elves and the humans are better equipped. Even in the unlikely event that Orlais is wiped off the map, I think someone will come in and want to retake the land. If the elves didn't help during the blight and then, according to humans, strike at a weakened Orlais and then used a demon infestation to once again attack weakened humans in order to forge their own country, I figure humans would just hate the elves all the more. Unless the Chantry was completely wiped out after the war, the elves would probably be branded as deceitful traitors and face another Exalted March. They might even be completely exterminated. Instead of attacking, the elves are better off either attempting to forge a kingdom somewhere currently uninhabited or attempting a civil rights movement.

Actually, take a look at the post I made towards the bottom of the previous page... it pretty much answers each of these points, and it's kind of long so I don't think anyone wants me to repeat it all... lol... suffice to say that I think the current circumstances are optimal and the elves probably won't get another shot for another couple centuries.

 

Financing an expedition to find a new continent is a good alternative IMO... I would have no problem with that.

[LobselVith8]

No it isn't. It reeaaally isn't. Not even in the slightest... It is ambigious about how the border skirmishes started, but not the war.

 

It's an incredibly truncated entry that doesn't address which historical account is the correct one. I'm not even certain why you persist in claiming otherwise. Here is the entry from World of Thedas:

 

"Relations with the humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire. The elves founded a legion, known as the Emerald Knights, to protect their land from human intrusion. Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles." (page 28)

 

Technically speaking, the Exalted March was called during the actual war, not right after Red Crossing, so as I said previously, it's a very truncated account about the fall of the Dales. We receive no insight into whether the humans were invading the Dales as the Dalish claim, or whether Red Crossing was attacked without provocation. The player doesn't know which historical account is correct.

 

As I said, it's a condescended version that omits quite a bit of information, and doesn't actually address the nuances of the actual conflict. It doesn't read that the Chantry version is correct, nor does it read that the Dalish version is correct. It's merely a condensed series of events.

[cjones91]

I don't expect the elve's situation to improve just by playing nice to humans.They will always be treated like second class citizens whose existence is barely tolerated at best.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't expect the elve's situation to improve just by playing nice to humans.They will always be treated like second class citizens whose existence is barely tolerated at best.

 

They should accept their station and be grateful for existence.

 

Enough Said.

[RobRam10]

I have an excellent idea of a homeland for the elves! It's called... Tevinter.

[Master Warder Z_]

I have an excellent idea of a homeland for the elves! It's called... Tevinter.

 

Even i am not that cruel...God is supposed to be kind after all.

[cjones91]

I have an excellent idea of a homeland for the elves! It's called... Tevinter.

That's a terrible idea considering what Tevinter does to elves.

[TK514]

Ah yes.  Extraditing the elves to Tevinter.  If the magisters are going to be practicing blood magic anyway, we might as well provide them with their traditional source.  A culture is important to save, after all.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, but wouldn't the humans just seek revenge? There are a lot more humans than elves and the humans are better equipped. Even in the unlikely event that Orlais is wiped off the map, I think someone will come in and want to retake the land. If the elves didn't help during the blight and then, according to humans, strike at a weakened Orlais and then used a demon infestation to once again attack weakened humans in order to forge their own country, I figure humans would just hate the elves all the more.

 

It would be an Orlesian defeat if the empire lost control over the Dales, but I don't see why all humans would vilify the elves for it; Nevarra and Ferelden have both been occupied by Orlais, and dislodged the Orlesians from controlling their territory. It wouldn't be implausible for a treaty to be established between the Dales and Ferelden, given the mutual concern both nations would have about Orlais. Even a warmonger sitting on the throne might reconsider provoking an attack against either kingdom if it meant a two-front war, especially with the likely willingness of Nevarra to take advantage, given their current territorial disputes.

 

Unless the Chantry was completely wiped out after the war, the elves would probably be branded as deceitful traitors and face another Exalted March. They might even be completely exterminated. Instead of attacking, the elves are better off either attempting to forge a kingdom somewhere currently uninhabited or attempting a civil rights movement.

 

Would that be the case if the Inquisitor supported the elves in reclaiming the Dales, especially an elven protagonist who seems to be viewed with some religious connotations by the people? With the Chantry having lost it's martial arm, with either the templars or the mages potentially becoming part of the Inquisition, and the Inquisitor establishing an organization that will seemingly occupy the vacuum of power left in the wake of the Chantry's losses.

 

As for a civil rights movement, that's not exactly possible for the elves when they can killed en mass any time they protest their situation, particularly at a time when some Orlesian scholars are going to write thesis's describing how elves are basically animals, which is simply one of the many reasons why some of us support an autonomous nation for the elves, where they can be the masters of their fate, instead of restricted to servitude.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's a terrible idea considering what Tevinter does to elves.

No, we'd send the Magisters to Par Vollen first.

[Samahl]

Yeah, but the humans aren't forcing them to stay in the alienages, so long as they don't attempt to live within the human residential district or establish any permanent settlements...  at any point they can leave and take their chances in the wilderness.  Some would die, and some would live, but why just wait around and take abuse until somebody you've never met arbitrarily decides it's time for half of the alienage to die?

 

I'm not saying it would be easy, and I realize that the level of uncertainty would make it very difficult for a large group of elves to actually agree to this.  I'm merely saying that this is one example of how the City Elves have shown that they are largely composed of cowards, which is why I would not support them in this hypothetical example...

 

Old and disabled elves (and children) are going to have a far harder time trying to make it in the wilderness than the younger, healthier ones. There are practical concerns to going out in search of the Dalish, especially since many city elves have been raised to question their existence/fear them.

[Eveangaline]

Everyone should just become darkspawn. Submit to the taint. All will be equal when they can hear the song.

[TK514]

Everyone should just become darkspawn. Submit to the taint. All will be equal when they can hear the song.

 

If two Archdemons awoke at the same time, would they battle for supremacy or agree to split the spoils in half?

[Xilizhra]

Ah yes.  Extraditing the elves to Tevinter.  If the magisters are going to be practicing blood magic anyway, we might as well provide them with their traditional source.  A culture is important to save, after all.

That's kind of the point; RobRam is a Tevinter partisan.

[Icy Magebane]

Old and disabled elves (and children) are going to have a far harder time trying to make it in the wilderness than the younger, healthier ones. There are practical concerns to going out in search of the Dalish, especially since many city elves have been raised to question their existence/fear them.

...

 

Well how about if only the able bodied elves go off to war, with a few of them staying behind with the the old and young?  If the war succeeds, they send word and a few handfuls of soldiers to escort the old and young to the new elven nation?  If it fails... well hey, who starts a war thinking that they're going to fail, right?  Honestly this just sounds like nitpicking... what matters is that the able bodied elves band together to fight.  The Dalish are already organized and incorporating apostate mages is likely as easy as finding them and asking them to join forces (at the very least, you get some new soldiers...  even a handful of additional mages can do a lot of damage).  I don't remember saying that this solution would work without casualties, and I also didn't say that everyone needed to show up at the same time to pull this off...

 

Are you are opposed to war, and if so, what is your counter-proposal?

 

Edit:  rephrased that last sentence...

[LobselVith8]

Didn't I already give them one in DAO.

 

The Hinterlands? There's speculation among some fans that the developers pulled another Magi Boon and rectonned it. Which is unfortunate for players who had their Dalish Warden chose that boon, or have that land gifted to the Dalish as a result of making the ultimate sacrifice.