2113 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

...

 

Well how about if only the able bodied elves go off to war, with a few of them staying behind with the the old and young?  If the war succeeds, they send word and a few handfuls of soldiers to escort the old and young to the new elven nation?  If it fails... well hey, who starts a war thinking that they're going to fail, right?  Honestly this just sounds like nitpicking... what matters is that the able bodied elves band together to fight.  The Dalish are already organized and incorporating apostate mages is likely as easy as finding them and asking them to join forces (at the very least, you get some new soldiers...  even a handful of additional mages can do a lot of damage).  I don't remember saying that this solution would work without casualties, and I also didn't say that everyone needed to show up at the same time to pull this off...

 

Are you are opposed to war, and if so, what is your counter-proposal?

 

Edit:  rephrased that last sentence...

 

Since when are the Dalish organized?

[Icy Magebane]

Since when are the Dalish organized?

The individual clans are organized... do I need to explain what joining forces means?

 

Think of the Free Marchers... individual groups of humans that have agreed to band together when threatened by outside forces.

[Samahl]

...

 

Well how about if only the able bodied elves go off to war, with a few of them staying behind with the the old and young?  If the war succeeds, they send word and a few handfuls of soldiers to escort the old and young to the new elven nation?  If it fails... well hey, who starts a war thinking that they're going to fail, right?  Honestly this just sounds like nitpicking... what matters is that the able bodied elves band together to fight.  The Dalish are already organized and incorporating apostate mages is likely as easy as finding them and asking them to join forces (at the very least, you get some new soldiers...  even a handful of additional mages can do a lot of damage).  I don't remember saying that this solution would work without casualties, and I also didn't say that everyone needed to show up at the same time to pull this off...

 

Are you are opposed to war, and if so, what is your counter-proposal?

 

Edit:  rephrased that last sentence...

 

I was addressing your claim that city elves who don't leave to go find the Dalish are "cowardly". There are many reasons a city elf might not want to. It's more complicated than that.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the best course of action is when it comes to securing a homeland. I'd have to see the situation in Inquisition first.

[Hellion Rex]

The Hinterlands? There's speculation among some fans that the developers pulled another Magi Boon and rectonned it. Which is unfortunate for players who had their Dalish Warden chose that boon, or have that land gifted to the Dalish as a result of making the ultimate sacrifice.

I don't know if they retconned it necessarily, but since the Hinterlands are pretty much the stomping ground for mages vs. templars, it might as well be retconned.

[Icy Magebane]

I was addressing your claim that city elves who don't leave to go find the Dalish are "cowardly". There are many reasons a city elf might not want to. It's more complicated than that.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the best course of action is when it comes to securing a homeland. I'd have to see the situation in Inquisition first.

I get you now.  Yeah, that's understandable, and maybe they aren't complete cowards... but they've let themselves get pushed around for generations.  I don't see how they could be trusted to run a nation on their own...  but as you say, having more details would be necessary to really decide anything.

[DRTJR]

No, we'd send the Magisters to Par Vollen first.

I hope to crush the Qun once and for all.

[bairdduvessa]

i say get rid of borders and prejudices, but then there would be no story.  plus humans would have to grow up and believe in equality.

[Altima Darkspells]

Of course the elves need a homeland.

Where else are we going to have our Exalted Marches at?

[Eveangaline]

No one will have a homeland once the Qunari win. It's best for the human lands to just submit to their new horned overlords.

[Daerog]

How about a bunch of clans get together, hire some Wardens, go into the Deep Roads, liberate a thaig for themselves, hire themselves out as scouts/guides/mercenaries for trade/resources, and use the thaig as a home base, like a trial nation. Some of those thaigs are pretty neat. They won't be in anyone's way and can just ignore any dwarf complaints.

 

Maybe they can mine lyrium using enchanted gear for protection. Introducing a new faction: The Deep Elves. New culture and jokes about that culture!

[EmperorSahlertz]

It's an incredibly truncated entry that doesn't address which historical account is the correct one. I'm not even certain why you persist in claiming otherwise. Here is the entry from World of Thedas:

 

"Relations with the humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire. The elves founded a legion, known as the Emerald Knights, to protect their land from human intrusion. Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles." (page 28)

 

Technically speaking, the Exalted March was called during the actual war, not right after Red Crossing, so as I said previously, it's a very truncated account about the fall of the Dales. We receive no insight into whether the humans were invading the Dales as the Dalish claim, or whether Red Crossing was attacked without provocation. The player doesn't know which historical account is correct.

 

As I said, it's a condescended version that omits quite a bit of information, and doesn't actually address the nuances of the actual conflict. It doesn't read that the Chantry version is correct, nor does it read that the Dalish version is correct. It's merely a condensed series of events.

And it has been pointed out to you, several times by different people, that it isn't the main text that tells what happened, it is the timeline. The timeline clearly shows that the Elves started the war. Of course you ignore this, because you aren't capable of accepting that your precious Elvhen might be the aggressors.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hmm, the Hinterlands is a region in DAI, isn't it? Yeah, they probably retconned it then lol. Or maybe it'll change some ambient dialog there slightly but everything else will be the same regardless...

They didn't retcon anything. We already know that the Hinterlands given to the Elves didn't work. Alistair says as much.

[TK514]

They didn't retcon anything. We already know that the Hinterlands given to the Elves didn't work. Alistair says as much.

There also a letter on the DA:I site to Arl Teagan that makes it clear that the Hinterlands belong to Redcliffe now.

[DRTJR]

How about a bunch of clans get together, hire some Wardens, go into the Deep Roads, liberate a thaig for themselves, hire themselves out as scouts/guides/mercenaries for trade/resources, and use the thaig as a home base, like a trial nation. Some of those thaigs are pretty neat. They won't be in anyone's way and can just ignore any dwarf complaints.

Maybe they can mine lyrium using enchanted gear for protection. Introducing a new faction: The Deep Elves. New culture and jokes about that culture!

there is a Drow joke imbedded in there but I can't put my finger on it.

[Pierce Miller]

Part of me hopes there's a way to improve the lot of elves in Thedas, you just know it'd cause so much chaos amongst the humans. They also obviously wouldn't convert again so another exalted march would happen. I get the feeling something miraculous will have to happen.

[Gervaise]

Here's an interesting counter proposal.    Make an arrangement with Orlais/Chantry to give a part of the Dales back to the elves but with the proviso that any human farmers already living there are permitted to stay and have a say in governing the place and that the elves continue to follow the Chant of Light.   Orlais nominally still has sovereignty over it but within its borders they are pretty much self determining, raise and use their own taxes, etc.  Orlais will stay out of their affairs provided they do not threaten the stability of that nation.  

 

Then go to every Alienage and make the offer to their leaders, propose a form of government that gives everyone equal rights and ask them to canvass for volunteers to help set up this new state.   Give them the resources they need to get started and support during the initial period, whether military or economic.    Hopefully this will encourage these ex-city elves to work with their human neighbours and engage in trade and diplomatic relations rather than try and shut themselves off altogether.

 

For the sake of argument, let's assume our experiment is a success.   Where does that leave the Dalish with their desire to recover the power of ancient Arlathen and their loyalty to the elven gods who have done precious little to assist them?      Shartan wanted an elven homeland for his people not a new elven empire and that is what they get.

[Pierce Miller]

Here's an interesting counter proposal.    Make an arrangement with Orlais/Chantry to give a part of the Dales back to the elves but with the proviso that any human farmers already living there are permitted to stay and have a say in governing the place and that the elves continue to follow the Chant of Light.   Orlais nominally still has sovereignty over it but within its borders they are pretty much self determining, raise and use their own taxes, etc.  Orlais will stay out of their affairs provided they do not threaten the stability of that nation.  

 

Then go to every Alienage and make the offer to their leaders, propose a form of government that gives everyone equal rights and ask them to canvass for volunteers to help set up this new state.   Give them the resources they need to get started and support during the initial period, whether military or economic.    Hopefully this will encourage these ex-city elves to work with their human neighbours and engage in trade and diplomatic relations rather than try and shut themselves off altogether.

 

For the sake of argument, let's assume our experiment is a success.   Where does that leave the Dalish with their desire to recover the power of ancient Arlathen and their loyalty to the elven gods who have done precious little to assist them?      Shartan wanted an elven homeland for his people not a new elven empire and that is what they get.

I get the feeling this is a far too democratic solution for the world of Thedas, I'm definitely sure the only way elves are getting a homeland is if they somehow managed to win a war against the human forces.

[Gervaise]

To quote Justinia "Idealism is our stock-in-trade...... A religion without ideals is tyranny."   Well for me that idealism extends into not only getting a homeland for the elves but finding a way for them to KEEP IT.      I'm all for the Chant of Light; my problem is with the fact that none of the people who claim to follow it actually do when it comes to the really important things, like social justice.  

 

As it is the Dalish are pretty much waiting for the humans to kill each other off and for them to fill the vacuum.   I think even they are realistic enough to know that trying to get a homeland by fighting for it is pretty much going to end in disaster.   If you could rouse all the elves in the Val Royeaux alienage into fighting, that would give you a population of 10,000 persons, with only around half of that capable of fighting but what with?    They wouldn't stand a chance against the full might of the Chevaliers and if they retreated behind barricades,  Celene has shown how they deal with that - you just burn them out.   

 

Far better to try and play of what people claim to believe and then negotiate from there.    I'd be happy to start with equal rights in the current situation.   Then the elves wouldn't need to go anywhere.    However, having an experiment in a new style of government, with the elves being the pioneers, appeals to me.    Instead of looking back to something long gone, the elves could be at the forefront of innovation and progress to a better future.    Change has to start somewhere and it is long overdue.

[Roamingmachine]

Here's an interesting counter proposal.    Make an arrangement with Orlais/Chantry to give a part of the Dales back to the elves but with the proviso that any human farmers already living there are permitted to stay and have a say in governing the place and that the elves continue to follow the Chant of Light.   Orlais nominally still has sovereignty over it but within its borders they are pretty much self determining, raise and use their own taxes, etc.  Orlais will stay out of their affairs provided they do not threaten the stability of that nation.  
 
Then go to every Alienage and make the offer to their leaders, propose a form of government that gives everyone equal rights and ask them to canvass for volunteers to help set up this new state.   Give them the resources they need to get started and support during the initial period, whether military or economic.    Hopefully this will encourage these ex-city elves to work with their human neighbours and engage in trade and diplomatic relations rather than try and shut themselves off altogether.
 
For the sake of argument, let's assume our experiment is a success.   Where does that leave the Dalish with their desire to recover the power of ancient Arlathen and their loyalty to the elven gods who have done precious little to assist them?      Shartan wanted an elven homeland for his people not a new elven empire and that is what they get.

The arrangement would die the second the ruler of the moment decides its inconvenient. And if you are going to let the humans have a say on how the state is run, what's the point of creating it? Why not just give equal rights to elves? Oh, that's right. Humans are a bunch of morons who regard elves as little more than pretty animals. So yeah, lets get them mixed in, I'm sure it won't end up in a purge of the elves after the first douchecanoe human gets lynched...

The thing is, with the attitude humans have shown towards elves the only possible solution is an independent elven state where humans are NOT citizens. They might live there, but their status is whatever the state says it is. A bit of "shoe on the other foot" would do them good. Any situation where humans have any say in elven matters leads directly to the current situation.
The dale elves and city elves would probably get along just fine with city elves building settlements and the dale elves keeping to their hunter-gatherer lifestyle with people of both cultures being free to choose their way of life, as they already do in secret. With this kind of binary cultural division it would be logical to assume that you are also going to have two systems of government with a council of the two for settling disputes and for matters that concern the entire state.

[Dean_the_Young]

Far better to try and play of what people claim to believe and then negotiate from there.    I'd be happy to start with equal rights in the current situation.   Then the elves wouldn't need to go anywhere.    However, having an experiment in a new style of government, with the elves being the pioneers, appeals to me.    Instead of looking back to something long gone, the elves could be at the forefront of innovation and progress to a better future.    Change has to start somewhere and it is long overdue.

 

Who, exactly, is going to do any of that?

 

Where are the elven intellectuals composing new social theories, what is the ideology that people will accept and adhere to in pursuit of them, who are the experienced administrators with the expertise and practice of building and running institutions to execute these views and preferences?

 

Thedas isn't some repressed vision of liberalism waiting to burst forth and execute noble ideas that everyone agrees with but no one puts into practice. It's a place that to date has been largely devoid of social ideologies and absent of elven intellectuals and unity.

[Dean_the_Young]

The arrangement would die the second the ruler of the moment decides its inconvenient. And if you are going to let the humans have a say on how the state is run, what's the point of creating it? Why not just give equal rights to elves? Oh, that's right. Humans are a bunch of morons who regard elves as little more than pretty animals. So yeah, lets get them mixed in, I'm sure it won't end up in a purge of the elves after the first douchecanoe human gets lynched...

The thing is, with the attitude humans have shown towards elves the only possible solution is an independent elven state where humans are NOT citizens. They might live there, but their status is whatever the state says it is. A bit of "shoe on the other foot" would do them good. Any situation where humans have any say in elven matters leads directly to the current situation.
The dale elves and city elves would probably get along just fine with city elves building settlements and the dale elves keeping to their hunter-gatherer lifestyle with people of both cultures being free to choose their way of life, as they already do in secret. With this kind of binary cultural division it would be logical to assume that you are also going to have two systems of government with a council of the two for settling disputes and for matters that concern the entire state.

 

Clearly this has worked quite well for, well, just about any oppressed minority in the world today. Because when I think back on 'binary culture' between settlements and external tribal groups, stability and amicable relations are totally what come to mind.

 

About as well flipping oppressor and opressee and blaming the oppressor race's underclass for the sins of their racial elites, come to think of it.

[Xilizhra]

There also a letter on the DA:I site to Arl Teagan that makes it clear that the Hinterlands belong to Redcliffe now.

More land theft? I like Alexius already, in that case.

 

Also, it seems clear now that the only way the Dalish will ever find a homeland is if they unite now. If sending stones are portable, and if enough of those could be crafted so that each clan would have one, communications could be maintained and that would help a lot with a consistent cultural identity; unfortunately, this reunion would probably take too long for immediate action to be taken in the timeframe of Inquisition, so we'll have to wait and see what this game makes possible.

[General TSAR]

Do i need country full of psychotic and racist elves? nah i will pass

What elves really need is solid beating but well they aren't only one everyone in thedas should get one.

Yep, those damn rebel Mages too.

 

Do the humans need a homeland? If there was a sudden, magic fueled reversal of fortunes, they should probably just assimilate and listen to the elves.

Nope, the Elves are pathetic.

 

The Dwarves on the other hand, they are a worthy enough civilization to assimilate into.