2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Roamingmachine]

Clearly this has worked quite well for, well, just about any oppressed minority in the world today. Because when I think back on 'binary culture' between settlements and external tribal groups, stability and amicable relations are totally what come to mind.
 
About as well flipping oppressor and opressee and blaming the oppressor race's underclass for the sins of their racial elites, come to think of it.

The countries that have such divisions in our own world are ruled completely from the cities and the tribes tend to be treated like humans treat dale elves in Thedas. The closest analogies to what I proposed that exist in our world would be the various autonomous zones. Only in my example there are two such zones that jointly form a nation. A federation, if you will. Think Belgium, or Switzerland. There will be tensions just like there are in the real world, but that is true for any nation. Plus the elven nation would be surrounded by more or less hostile human nations and that works wonders in quelling internal strife.

[Dean_the_Young]

The countries that have such divisions in our own world are ruled completely from the cities and the tribes tend to be treated like humans treat dale elves in Thedas. The closest analogies to what I proposed that exist in our world would be the various autonomous zones. Only in my example there are two such zones that jointly form a nation. A federation, if you will. Think Belgium, or Switzerland. There will be tensions just like there are in the real world, but that is true for any nation. Plus the elven nation would be surrounded by more or less hostile human nations and that works wonders in quelling internal strife.

 

Belgium and Switzerland don't have any nomadic cultures analogous in identity or role to the Dalish.

 

The closest European analog might be the Roma. Which is a whole other can of worms in the context of European history and its divisions.

[Roamingmachine]

Belgium and Switzerland don't have any nomadic cultures analogous in identity or role to the Dalish.
 
The closest European analog might be the Roma. Which is a whole other can of worms in the context of European history and its divisions.

But they do have completely different cultures, with different languages even, coexisting in a federal state. Now that I think of it, the population of Mongolia is about 30% nomadic (and a funny fact: nearly half of the population lives in the capital of Ulan Bator).Something like that is what I envision for the elves, only the nomads and city folk both governing themselves with their own systems and a federal 'unity government' handling matters pertaining to the entire state.

[TK514]

More land theft? I like Alexius already, in that case.

 

Also, it seems clear now that the only way the Dalish will ever find a homeland is if they unite now. If sending stones are portable, and if enough of those could be crafted so that each clan would have one, communications could be maintained and that would help a lot with a consistent cultural identity; unfortunately, this reunion would probably take too long for immediate action to be taken in the timeframe of Inquisition, so we'll have to wait and see what this game makes possible.

 

Given that the land was only potentially given to the elves in 1/4th of the games, and Alistair makes it clear that even that 1/4th of the time it doesn't work out, I'd hardly say Redcliffe and Teagan are to blame.  With much of the Hinterlands being blighted and Lothering eradicated, Redcliffe is the only logical choice as an administrative center, since it gets rebuilt to an extent one way or another.

 

Though it does look like a small scale experiment into what might happen to a new elvish state.  If Ferelden, which is about as anti-Orlais as one can get, can't abide a Dalish community even after one saved the world, well.  A new Dales would be sandwiched between two nations that manage lip service to them at best but are hostile in practice.

[Xilizhra]

Given that the land was only potentially given to the elves in 1/4th of the games, and Alistair makes it clear that even that 1/4th of the time it doesn't work out, I'd hardly say Redcliffe and Teagan are to blame.  With much of the Hinterlands being blighted and Lothering eradicated, Redcliffe is the only logical choice as an administrative center, since it gets rebuilt to an extent one way or another.

 

Though it does look like a small scale experiment into what might happen to a new elvish state.  If Ferelden, which is about as anti-Orlais as one can get, can't abide a Dalish community even after one saved the world, well.  A new Dales would be sandwiched between two nations that manage lip service to them at best but are hostile in practice.

He says that something bad happened, not that it didn't work out as such, and that he was going to fix things. If Teagan wasn't planning on returning the land to the Dalish once whatever it was was over, I'll have his head on a spike if possible.

 

But if the humans can't abide so simple a thing... well, perhaps they've ruled Thedas long enough. It'll be interesting to see how the Dalish Inquisitor will manage all this.

[Dean_the_Young]

But they do have completely different cultures, with different languages even, coexisting in a federal state. Now that I think of it, the population of Mongolia is about 30% nomadic (and a funny fact: nearly half of the population lives in the capital of Ulan Bator).Something like that is what I envision for the elves, only the nomads and city folk both governing themselves with their own systems and a federal 'unity government' handling matters pertaining to the entire state.

 

The nomads of Mongolia also come nowhere near being equal partners or rights to the central government.

 

If you're looking for a model of a strong, stable government that can resist outside interference... Belgium is not it.

 

And before there can be any plausible system of federalism for a power sharing arrangement, Thedas would need a concept of federalism to fall back on.

 

As it is, you're more likely to get Somalia, a poor and divided cauldron of identity groups competing to gain control of what passes for a state without a civil society or institutions to rely on, than you are a country that existed at the interest, support, and influence of the richest and most powerful countries in the region.

[TK514]

He says that something bad happened, not that it didn't work out as such, and that he was going to fix things. If Teagan wasn't planning on returning the land to the Dalish once whatever it was was over, I'll have his head on a spike if possible.

 

But if the humans can't abide so simple a thing... well, perhaps they've ruled Thedas long enough. It'll be interesting to see how the Dalish Inquisitor will manage all this.

 

 Sometimes, you're hilarious.

[Wulfram]

Highlanders and lowlanders lived together in Scotland and did OK for a good long time.  I mean, it all went wrong in the 18th century, but it wasn't a bad run.

[Xilizhra]

 Sometimes, you're hilarious.

What can I say? I am an eternal optimist.

[CrazyGobstopper]

And it has been pointed out to you, several times by different people, that it isn't the main text that tells what happened, it is the timeline. The timeline clearly shows that the Elves started the war.

Some timeline entries from The World of Thedas, some of which are relevant specifically to this time period and some that are provided for context to other questions raised in the thread:

•  -981 Ancient: Tensions between Teventer and the elves turn to open war. The Imperium besieges Arlathan. (pg 21.)
• -975 Ancient: The years-long siege of Arlathan ends when Teventer is said to sink the city into the ground using blood magic. Surviving elves are enslaved. (pg 21.)
• -203 Ancient: The prophet Andraste is born in Fereldan. The exact year of her birth is hotly contested by scholars. (pg 34.)
• -187 Ancient: Andraste marries Maferath, an Alamarri chieftain. (pg 36.)
• -186 Ancient: Andraste preaches of a new creator, whom she calls the Maker. The more she says, the more her following grows. Maferath uses her teachings to unite the Alamarri clans under his authority. (pg 37.)
• -180 Ancient: Maferath's barbarian horde pushes north and begins an outright assault on the Imperium. Andraste's word spreads among oppressed Tevinter subjects and incites slave uprisings. Southern Tevinter begins to properly collapse. (pg 42.)
• -171 Ancient: The Battle of Valarian Fields is fought between the Alamarri and the Tevinter Imperium. Maferath is victorious. (pg 43.)
• -171 Ancient: At the Battle of Valarian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes Maferath's side and leads other elves in the fight against their Tevinter oppressors. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writtings suppressed following the Exalted March of the Dales. (pg 43.)
• -171 Ancient: Andraste and the Maker are given credit for Maferath's military victories. Maferath's jealousy overwhelms him. Wanting to bring an end to hostilities and tighten his grip on conquered territories, he makes a pact with the Archon Hessarian of Tevinter. (pg 44.)
• -170 Ancient: Andraste is betrayed by her husband at the city-state of Nevarra, one of their strongholds. She is brough to Minrathous and executed by the Imperium. (pg 45.)
• -165 Ancient: The armies of Maferath and Andraste disperse. Maferath claims much of southern Thedas in the name of the Alamarri, taking Ferelden for himself while dividing what will become Orlais, the nation of Nevarra, and several Marcher cities between his sons. (pg 45.)
• -165 Ancient: For their service in battle against the Imperium, Maferath gives the elves a new homeland in the Dales. The Long Walk begins as a massive influx of elves settle the region. (pg 46.)
• -160 Ancient: Archon Hessarian converts to the Cult of the Maker and reveals Maferath's treachery. (pg 46.)
• -160 Ancient: The Alamarri abandon Maferath, and southern Thedas collapses into anarchy. (pg 46.)
• -130 Ancient: Andraste's disciples create the Chant of Light, collecting her teachings into hymns. (pg 49.)
• -125 Ancient: The Chant's popularity spreads. (pg. 49)
• -100 Ancient: The Inquisition is founded around this time. The loose association of Andrastian hard-liners hunts heretics and mages in the name of the Maker. (pg 50.)
• -11 Ancient: The Cult of the Maker spreads in the south. One of Andraste's most fervent followers is the young king of Orlais, Kordillus Drakon. (pg 53.)
• -3 Ancient: Kordillus Drakon unites the tribes of the Heartlands and is crowned emperor of the new nation of Orlais. (pg 53.)
• -3 Ancient: Drakon formalizes the Cult of the Maker, creating the Chantry. (pg 56.)
• 1:1 Divine: Divine Justinia I is named the first Divine of the new Chantry (pg 57.)
• 1:5 Divine: The Old God Zazikel awakens. The Second Blight begins in the Anderfels. (pg 57.)
• 1:20 Divine: The Chantry and the Inquisition sign the Nevarran Accord. Senior members of the Inquisition form the Seekers of Truth. (pg 62.)
• 1:20 Divine: The Circle of Magi is created as part of the Nevarran Accord. Mages are now formally permitted to practice magic under the close watch of the Chantry. (pg 63.)
• 1:20 Divine: With the creation of the Circle, the Templar Order is formed to police magic use. (pg 63.)
• 1:25 Divine: Elves in the Dales do nothing as darkspawn nearly destroy the nearby Orlesian city of Montsimmard. (pg 64.)
• 1:33 Divine: The Wardens convert to the Chantry. (pg 65.)
• 1:33 Divine: The Chantry and Wardens together save the badly weakened Anderfels from destruction. (pg 65.)
• 1:33 Divine: The Anderfels convert to the Chantry and become part of the Orlesian Empire. (pg 66.)
• 1:45 Divine: The teachings of Andraste are popularized in Antiva. (pg 67.)
• 2:5 Glory: Border skirmishes break out between the Dales and Orlais. (pg 72.)
• 2:9 Glory: Elven forces capture the Orlesian town of Red Crossing. The atrocities they are said to commit enrage humans across Thedas. (pg 73.)
• 2:10 Glory: The elves capture Montsimmard, a major strategic settlement for Orlais, then march on Val Royaeux. (pg 73.)
• 2:10 Glory: Divine Renata I calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales. (pg 74.)
• 2:20 Glory: Despite considerable elven victories, Orlais takes the elven capital of Halamshiral. (pg 76.)
• 2:20 Glory: The Dales fall. Elven settlements are uprooted. (pg 76.)
• 2:20 Glory: Divine Renata I orders the establishment of the first alienages. Many elves instead become nomads. (pg 76.)
• 9:31 Dragon: A united Ferelden, led by the Hero of Ferelden, slays Urthemiel at the Battle of Denerim, ending the Fifth Blight. (pg 148.)
• 9:34 Dragon: Revered Mother Dorothea is named Divine Justinia V. (pg 154.)
• 9:38 Dragon: Unrest brews in Orlais as Grand Duke Gaspard de Chalons stirs dissent against reigning Empress Celene I. (pg 155.)
• 9:40 Dragon: Empress Celene is called out of Val Royeaux after news of an elven rebellion in Halamshiral. The move is thought to have been orchestrated by Gaspard. Clene's absence fuels rumors of her death or capture. (pg 156.)

[LobselVith8]

And it has been pointed out to you, several times by different people, that it isn't the main text that tells what happened, it is the timeline. The timeline clearly shows that the Elves started the war. Of course you ignore this, because you aren't capable of accepting that your precious Elvhen might be the aggressors.

 

The timeline doesn't make that claim, either; it never takes a side between the Chantry or the Dalish historical claim, any more than the developers have on the matter. While people like you have claimed that WoT says the Chantry version is the truth, none of you ever bother to back that assertion up. The simple truth is that we don't know which side is correct.

 

They didn't retcon anything. We already know that the Hinterlands given to the Elves didn't work. Alistair says as much.

 

Considering that the outcome for the Dalish Boon was that the elves settled the Hinterlands, and that Lanaya kept the peace, even heading to the royal court, I'd say that it's certainly a handwave to basically make the Hinterlands human-dominated land for all playthroughs, instead of respecting the choice made by those players who asked for the Dalish to be given their own lands.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The timeline doesn't make that claim, either; it never takes a side between the Chantry or the Dalish historical claim, any more than the developers have on the matter. While people like you have claimed that WoT says the Chantry version is the truth, none of you ever bother to back that assertion up. The simple truth is that we don't know which side is correct.

Who said anything about the Chantry version? The Chantry version is that the Elves captured Red Crossing and performed dark and debased rituals on the prisoners. No one is arguing that. What is IS argued is the obvious evidence that the Elves struck first when they attack Red Crossing. And only elf-apologists are arguing against that these days.

Wether or not the Chantry version of what the Dalish did to the Orlesian peasants of Red Crossing is another matter.

[LobselVith8]

Who said anything about the Chantry version? The Chantry version is that the Elves captured Red Crossing and performed dark and debased rituals on the prisoners. No one is arguing that. What is IS argued is the obvious evidence that the Elves struck first when they attack Red Crossing. And only elf-apologists are arguing against that these days.

Wether or not the Chantry version of what the Dalish did to the Orlesian peasants of Red Crossing is another matter.

 

There's no "obvious evidence" when you have two conflicting historical accounts, and no player is privy to which one is correct. The games didn't specify that one historical version was true over the other, the World of Thedas never took a side in the entry about the fall of the Dales or the timeline, and even the developers haven't said anything on the matter.

[TK514]

Considering that the outcome for the Dalish Boon was that the elves settled the Hinterlands, and that Lanaya kept the peace, even heading to the royal court, I'd say that it's certainly a handwave to basically make the Hinterlands human-dominated land for all playthroughs, instead of respecting the choice made by those players who asked for the Dalish to be given their own lands.

 

Didn't the developers also say, around DA2, that the various endings to DA:O are generally rumor and hearsay?

[EmperorSahlertz]

There's no "obvious evidence" when you have two conflicting historical accounts, and no player is privy to which one is correct. The games didn't specify that one historical version was true over the other, the World of Thedas never took a side in the entry about the fall of the Dales or the timeline, and even the developers haven't said anything on the matter.

we have actually historical sources, WoT and common sense saying that the Dalish attacked first. And we have an old racist storyteller, who wasn't even there, saying NOTHING about who attacked first, but isntead focuses on how terribly hard his poor people have had it.

 

Sorry, but pretty much only you and the rest of the elf-apologist gang lends any credence to the old racist.

 

Then there is of course also the fact that the Hahren's accoutn doesn't even really contradict the Chantry's since he doesn't even bother going into detail. Instead he focuses, in typical Dalish manner, on whining about how hard the Dalish has had it, and how evil the humans are. Not exactly a reliable source.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Didn't the developers also say, around DA2, that the various endings to DA:O are generally rumor and hearsay?

They did. But anything that turns sour for the Dalish is a conspiracy or ploy by the evil humans.

[Daerog]

This thread is becoming Dalish. Looking too much in the past, not enough focus on the present and future.

[LobselVith8]

Didn't the developers also say, around DA2, that the various endings to DA:O are generally rumor and hearsay?

 

The developers also said they handwaved some of the outcomes for the Epilogues, like when it was addressed why Nathaniel wasn't a full companion for Dragon Age II. The point is that the Epilogues are generally considered "rumor and hearsay" now because most of the outcomes were basically handwaved.

[MisterJB]

He says that something bad happened, not that it didn't work out as such, and that he was going to fix things. If Teagan wasn't planning on returning the land to the Dalish once whatever it was was over, I'll have his head on a spike if possible.

 

But if the humans can't abide so simple a thing... well, perhaps they've ruled Thedas long enough. It'll be interesting to see how the Dalish Inquisitor will manage all this.

 

I'm not seeing the Inquisitor, regardless of race, being capable of overturning the entirety of Theda Socio-economical structure while also changing it's entire demographics.

Just a hunch, really.

 

So, according to fan expectations, the Inquisitor will free the mages and the elves; return the Deep Roads to the dwarves without destroying the Darkspawn; defeat the Qun and Tevinter, protect the people, destroy the Chantry, compile a letter of Equal Rights, end human dominancy over Thedas, make everyone a mage, magically make it so that human/elven couplings don't always result in humans and restore the Dales AND Arlathan.

 

The alternative path will enable the Inquisitor to kill every single mage, restore the status quo, become Emperor/Empress while also destroying Orlais and Tevinter and the Qunari and magic itself.

 

Did you get all that, Bioware? That is what we are expecting you to deliver.
 

[Dabrikishaw]

Didn't the developers also say, around DA2, that the various endings to DA:O are generally rumor and hearsay?

Yes they did.

[TK514]

The developers also said they handwaved some of the outcomes for the Epilogues, like when it was addressed why Nathaniel wasn't a full companion for Dragon Age II. The point is that the Epilogues are generally considered "rumor and hearsay" now because most of the outcomes were basically handwaved.

 

Right.  I guess I'm wondering why it's suddenly an issue regarding the Hinterlands when we've pretty much known this for, what, three years?

[LobselVith8]

Right.  I guess I'm wondering why it's suddenly an issue regarding the Hinterlands when we've pretty much known this for, what, three years?

 

Having faced the same issue with the Magi Boon, I sympathize with the players who chose the Dalish Boon.

[MisterJB]

Right.  I guess I'm wondering why it's suddenly an issue regarding the Hinterlands when we've pretty much known this for, what, three years?

So, was that the third homelands they lost?

[TK514]

Having faced the same issue with the Magi Boon, I sympathize with the players who chose the Dalish Boon.

 

Come now, lets be honest.  You'd be all over this elf business regardless of what happened in any of the other boons.  It defines your presence on these boards.  The day you don't say something pro-Elf is the day I know someone has stolen your login info. 

 

Still, you're using something home we've known was rumor at best for three years as your hammer.  Between the developers and Alistair, there really wasn't a whole lot of room for doubt about the failure of the boons.  That would indicate that either Lanaya didn't keep the peace and head to royal court, or, if she did, she didn't do it for very long.  It's curious that you've chosen to hang your hat, so to speak, on something we've known doesn't matter for years.

[LobselVith8]

Come now, lets be honest.  You'd be all over this elf business regardless of what happened in any of the other boons.  It defines your presence on these boards.  The day you don't say something pro-Elf is the day I know someone has stolen your login info. 

 

Still, you're using something home we've known was rumor at best for three years as your hammer.  Between the developers and Alistair, there really wasn't a whole lot of room for doubt about the failure of the boons.  That would indicate that either Lanaya didn't keep the peace and head to royal court, or, if she did, she didn't do it for very long.  It's curious that you've chosen to hang your hat, so to speak, on something we've known doesn't matter for years.

 

Five years of my involvement in mage debates has been forgotten about, apparently.

 

My Warden was an elven mage, so my canon run didn't involve one of the Dalish. It doesn't really impact me personally. However, if it turns out to be the case that the Hinterlands is the same in all playthroughs (in other words, a human controlled region with human occupants), then it seems like the move was done to have the Hinterlands as basically the same region in all playthroughs, I'm not seeing how the outcome for the Dalish Boon wasn't handwaved to accommodate this, particularly as it would mean the elves didn't settle these lands, and that Lanaya didn't keep the peace, nor did she represent the Dalish at court.