2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Suledin]

Do you need a home?

[TK514]

Five years of my involvement in mage debates has been forgotten about, apparently.

 

My Warden was an elven mage, so my canon run didn't involve one of the Dalish. It doesn't really impact me personally. However, if it turns out to be the case that the Hinterlands is the same in all playthroughs (in other words, a human controlled region with human occupants), then it seems like the move was done to have the Hinterlands as basically the same region in all playthroughs, I'm not seeing how the outcome for the Dalish Boon wasn't handwaved to accommodate this, particularly as it would mean the elves didn't settle these lands, and that Lanaya didn't keep the peace, nor did she represent the Dalish at court.

 

 

Ahhh.  I get it.  I'm taking it as a given that the boon was dismissed (handwaved) by the developers years ago, either because it didn't happen or it didn't work, where you seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) working from the position that that might not be the case.

 

Your mage sympathies have not been forgotten, I assure you!    But the Elves do seem to be the dominant flavor this weekend.

[Master Warder Z_]

But the Elves do seem to be the dominant flavor this weekend.

 

Unfortunately.

[Altima Darkspells]

So, according to fan expectations, the Inquisitor will free the mages and the elves; return the Deep Roads to the dwarves without destroying the Darkspawn; defeat the Qun and Tevinter, protect the people, destroy the Chantry, compile a letter of Equal Rights, end human dominancy over Thedas, make everyone a mage, magically make it so that human/elven couplings don't always result in humans and restore the Dales AND Arlathan.
 
The alternative path will enable the Inquisitor to kill every single mage, restore the status quo, become Emperor/Empress while also destroying Orlais and Tevinter and the Qunari and magic itself.

And then they handwave all of that for DAIV

[LobselVith8]

Ahhh.  I get it.  I'm taking it as a given that the boon was dismissed (handwaved) by the developers years ago, either because it didn't happen or it didn't work, where you seem to be (correct me if I'm wrong) working from the position that that might not be the case.

 

Pretty much. It's mainly speculation, as nothing has been confirmed one way or another.

 

Your mage sympathies have not been forgotten, I assure you!    But the Elves do seem to be the dominant flavor this weekend.

 

Well, the option to play as an elven Inquisitor has certainly peaked the interests of different groups, especially with the possibility of helping the elves in the Dales.

[MisterJB]

Five years of my involvement in mage debates has been forgotten about, apparently.

 

My Warden was an elven mage, so my canon run didn't involve one of the Dalish. It doesn't really impact me personally. However, if it turns out to be the case that the Hinterlands is the same in all playthroughs (in other words, a human controlled region with human occupants), then it seems like the move was done to have the Hinterlands as basically the same region in all playthroughs, I'm not seeing how the outcome for the Dalish Boon wasn't handwaved to accommodate this, particularly as it would mean the elves didn't settle these lands, and that Lanaya didn't keep the peace, nor did she represent the Dalish at court.

There's a lot of elves in the demo but no signs of elven architecture or banners, only human.

So, they're probably just a minority that was living in some human settlement.

[Asdrubael Vect]

elves deserve and need their kingdom or kingdoms

 

dales and tirashan is the best places for them

[Roamingmachine]

The nomads of Mongolia also come nowhere near being equal partners or rights to the central government.
 
If you're looking for a model of a strong, stable government that can resist outside interference... Belgium is not it.
 
And before there can be any plausible system of federalism for a power sharing arrangement, Thedas would need a concept of federalism to fall back on.
 
As it is, you're more likely to get Somalia, a poor and divided cauldron of identity groups competing to gain control of what passes for a state without a civil society or institutions to rely on, than you are a country that existed at the interest, support, and influence of the richest and most powerful countries in the region.

I honestly have no idea what the relation of the nomads to the central government is in Mongolia. Judging by the population density and the aforementioned population statistics, I'd say the pretty much ignore eachother with maybe angry words spewed every now and again for internal consumption. How in the nine hells would one even govern a population of which 1/3 is basically unaccounted for and you don't even know how many there are? O_o
And while Somalia scenario is a possibility, I just don't see it as very likely. They are surrounded by both actively and passively hostile nations. Like I said before, an external threat works wonders to quell internal strife.
Let me offer you an example from my own country of two distinct people living under the same roof. The northern 3rd of the country is basically lawless. Police response time is measured in hours outside the admin center. It is also mostly populated by the Sami people. While there have been atrocities committed against them in the past, now they are culturally self-governing. Yet we do not have a civil war on our hands. The Sami and the Finns of the north deal vigilante justice on minor issues, go to Sami or local court where applicable and live out their lives as they see fit. I don't see any reason why the elves would not be able to do the same.

[Dean_the_Young]

I honestly have no idea what the relation of the nomads to the central government is in Mongolia. Judging by the population density and the aforementioned population statistics, I'd say the pretty much ignore eachother with maybe angry words spewed every now and again for internal consumption. How in the nine hells would one even govern a population of which 1/3 is basically unaccounted for and you don't even know how many there are? O_o

 

To start, you don't share power with them as equals. Then you control the static resources they require to maintain their nomadic existence, like watering cites and the such, and assert enough influence and force that they accept that.

 

 

 

And while Somalia scenario is a possibility, I just don't see it as very likely. They are surrounded by both actively and passively hostile nations. Like I said before, an external threat works wonders to quell internal strife.

 

Historically, weak states surrounded by stronger powers are made weaker, not stronger, as a result. The established powers apply their greater strength to manipulate subfactions and play them to their own interest, posing as the 'better' alternative.

 

Lockstep hostility from rivals is quite rare. The first rival to adopt a conciliatory posture can gain far more influence as a result.
 

 

Let me offer you an example from my own country of two distinct people living under the same roof. The northern 3rd of the country is basically lawless. Police response time is measured in hours outside the admin center. It is also mostly populated by the Sami people. While there have been atrocities committed against them in the past, now they are culturally self-governing. Yet we do not have a civil war on our hands. The Sami and the Finns of the north deal vigilante justice on minor issues, go to Sami or local court where applicable and live out their lives as they see fit. I don't see any reason why the elves would not be able to do the same.

 

 

Because Finland is a first world country with established institutions, advanced and widely held political culture, a strong state, and a clear dominant party over territorial matters, while remaining militarily neutral between two greater powers and territorially isolated from most challenges to the tribal areas. The city elves and the Dalish of the Dales, would not.

 

To have a first world country's political stability you need first world instittuions and the political environment and willingness to go along with them. Neither the Dalish or the city elves have the institutions to establish anything similar and simultaneously defend it.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't read every page of this, but I'm sure there have been some interesting comments. 

 

To answer the title of the thread, yes, I think the elves should have a homeland, and need one. 

 

The city elves are pretty much forced to live in slums and regularly suffer purges by the powers that be. And although it isn't illegal for them to move out of an alienage and set up a shop or something, historically racist humans come along and burn their home, destroy their possessions and force them back to the alienage. The culture surrounding City Elves pretty much dictates that they can't rise above servant's at best, and it is made quite clear pretty frequently in the games that elves are seen as lesser beings by the general population of humans, and many humans hate to see elves succeed. Since the majority of humans have shown no inclination to change their approach, it is time for the elves to change theirs, and I think removing themselves from such an abusive environment is one thing they could do, and having a homeland would help them in the long run. Should they keep it, they'll eventually get some dignity in what it means to be elven.

 

The Dalish on the other hand seem to suffer from having too much. But their numbers seem to be relatively small, and they have to trade clan members to prevent in-breeding or strengthen weakened clans from either disasters, skirmishes with humans or simple bad luck. They also have a strange combination of a superiority complex and a victim mindset. But what they do have is pride in being elves, the strength of will to fight and defend themselves, the skill to do so, and a greater knowledge of the ancient ways, and powerful magics unique to the Dalish. 

 

The skills of the Dalish and the numbers of the city elves could help establish and fortify a new elven homeland, one where they won't have to suffer from human bigotry and hatred, if the two groups don't kill each other first. 

 

I believe the elves should have a homeland, a place to lay down roots as a people. They may be obsessed with restoring what they lost, but it'll be darn near impossible to build something new and look to the future if they aren't allowed to worship as they please, advance in skills and gain a trade as they choose, and so on. The elves have suffered enough. 

[MisterJB]

The culture surrounding City Elves pretty much dictates that they can't rise above servant's at best,

This is the one innacurate thing in what you said.

While they are the exception rather than the rule, we have seen City Elves making something of themselves. The father of the kidnapped girl; who became a city guard; in DA2 was a merchant and we also see other elven merchants wealthy enough to buy permits to auction their goods at the High Market in Val-Royeaux.

Of course, that doesn't mean they have bought respect.

[dragonflight288]

This is the one innacurate thing in what you said.

While they are the exception rather than the rule, we have seen City Elves making something of themselves. The father of the kidnapped girl; who became a city guard; in DA2 was a merchant and we also see other elven merchants wealthy enough to buy permits to auction their goods at the High Market in Val-Royeaux.

Of course, that doesn't mean they have bought respect.

 

That daughter also had Aveline the reformist who didn't care what others thought of her as a guard captain. 

 

But your point is made. 

[Daerog]

City elves can be mercenaries, assassins, fishermen, outlaws/pirates, traders, bards, musicians, lumberjacks (zevran's dad), and a bunch of other jobs. Getting boss jobs is the hard part, but not all are servants. They are more independent than the dalish, for good or ill.

 

They can also marry into decent wealth. That one CE cousin in Origins married a human, moved away and had kids. To be able to move away and settle somewhere shows he didn't end up in the gutter by leaving the alienage.

[dragonflight288]

City elves can be mercenaries, assassins, fishermen, outlaws/pirates, traders, bards, musicians, lumberjacks (zevran's dad), and a bunch of other jobs. Getting boss jobs is the hard part, but not all are servants. They are more independent than the dalish, for good or ill.

 

They can also marry into decent wealth. That one CE cousin in Origins married a human, moved away and had kids. To be able to move away and settle somewhere shows he didn't end up in the gutter by leaving the alienage.

 

Most city elves aren't so fortunate. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but the general rule in Thedas culture among City Elves and humans is pretty much one of abuse and subjugation. 

[Wolfen09]

well, the dalish tend to avoid grouping together too much for fear of what happened in the dales (all elves in the dales bunched together made them easy to find and kill).  So my guess is they will wander aimlessly for all eternity.  As for the city elves.... unless we can side with the city elves in inquisition, i doubt they will take over a country.

[dragonflight288]

well, the dalish tend to avoid grouping together too much for fear of what happened in the dales (all elves in the dales bunched together made them easy to find and kill).  So my guess is they will wander aimlessly for all eternity.  As for the city elves.... unless we can side with the city elves in inquisition, i doubt they will take over a country.

 

I don't know. There's an elven rebellion going on in Orlais at the exact same time Orlais is engulfed in a civil war. 

 

If the situation plays out in such a manner, the elves may just get that homeland, and Orlais may be too weak or divided to do anything about it. 

[Daerog]

True that many humans are against them (plenty humans oppressing humans as well, anyone with power oppresses), but their culture is also against them. At least in Denerim, where elves are encouraged to not advance by their own people, that one shouldn't try to leave and remain subservient not only to human authority but elder authority as well. Kind of sucks, one has to be a rebel in some form to advance.

[dragonflight288]

True that many humans are against them (plenty humans oppressing humans as well, anyone with power oppresses), but their culture is also against them. At least in Denerim, where elves are encouraged to not advance by their own people, that one shouldn't try to leave and remain subservient not only to human authority but elder authority as well. Kind of sucks, one has to be a rebel in some form to advance.

 

Also a good point, but there's another point I think that is kind of overlooked in Denerim. 

 

During the battle at the end of the game, the City Elves had armed themselves and were fighting the darkspawn to defend themselves. 

 

Encourage that same passion to defend themselves, stand up for themselves long enough and soon you can have the beginnings of an elven rebellion. 

[LobselVith8]

well, the dalish tend to avoid grouping together too much for fear of what happened in the dales (all elves in the dales bunched together made them easy to find and kill).  So my guess is they will wander aimlessly for all eternity.  As for the city elves.... unless we can side with the city elves in inquisition, i doubt they will take over a country.

 

Some of the Dalish want their own nation again, so I don't think the clans will necessarily wander for all eternity. If the Arlathvenn is meeting (as it was previously said the next one would soon take place outside Halamshiral), perhaps the Inquisitor will meet most of the clans. Perhaps an opportunity to unite the Dalish and city elves together towards a common goal, since I imagine some elves will be quite angry at the massacre of thousands of their brethren in Halamshiral.

[Gervaise]

Essentially Briala's plan was to build up elf strength over time, while at the same time hamstringing which ever of Celene or Gaspard seemed to be getting the upper hand in the civil war.   When the moment was right they would be able to make a bid for power that might actually work.    Briala was also working for the "elves of Orlais" not just the Dalish.  She specifically told Mihris to pass the message on that she was willing to work with the Dalish provided they were working for the good of all elves, not just themselves.

 

The city elves do have a culture of their own of sorts.  They certainly will have skills that are far more useful for a settled life than those possessed by the Dalish.  Some of them may genuinely believe in the Maker and follow the Chant of Light.   Others may not be particularly religious at all.  City elves do not have a tradition of making tattoos on their faces and this is not a mark of being a true elf.    If the Dalish are prepared to accommodate this, then they would be welcome to embark on a joint venture to rebuild a elven homeland.    However, if they insist that the only true elves are the ones who follow their ways and worship the Creators then I can see trouble and division from the outset.   

 

I am very much for helping the City Elves restore their dignity and gain equal rights either within human society or in a settlement/land of their own.   I am perfectly happy to tolerate the Dalish within that latter set up but not for them to dominate it or force their culture on the rest.

[Gervaise]

Whilst on the subject of an elf homeland, did anyone else find it annoying that the Dalish got offered a tract of land as their boom but the City Elf only got offered a position on the City Council?    Don't get me wrong, the position was a start but I'd have liked the option of land as well.   In fact my city elf asked for a land and title as her reward, so did my elf mage.   In both cases this seemed like a really big deal since you get the control of a major port and associated land.  I did wonder if they would actually be allowed to govern it as an elf.    I head canoned that my Warden then left the land and title in perpetuity, in the absence of any heirs of their own, to the Leader of the elves in Denerim for the use of the elven community.   I thought if nothing else they would get the revenue.

[Master Warder Z_]

Some of the Dalish want their own nation again, so I don't think the clans will necessarily wander for all eternity. If the Arlathvenn is meeting (as it was previously said the next one would soon take place outside Halamshiral), perhaps the Inquisitor will meet most of the clans. Perhaps an opportunity to unite the Dalish and city elves together towards a common goal, since I imagine some elves will be quite angry at the massacre of thousands of their brethren in Halamshiral.

 

And i am sure plenty of the Dalish will be quite indifferent as always to the "suffering" of their flat eared brethren, which in this case was brought upon by their own choices, admittedly they were poor but still revolting against a Lord...How did they expect that to end?

 

It wouldn't have made much difference had it been human peasantry doing it, it would have ended about the same.

 

Ironically an elf pointed this out to them

[Steelcan]

"The more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us"

[LobselVith8]

And i am sure plenty of the Dalish will be quite indifferent as always to the "suffering" of their flat eared brethren, which in this case was brought upon by their own choices, admittedly they were poor but still revolting against a Lord...How did they expect that to end?

 

I don't think that would necessarily be the case, given how willing Zathrian's clan was willing to save Aneirin, a young boy they came across who was left for dead by the templars, and how they accept elves who are looking to join them. The Dalish aren't incapable of empathy for their fellow elves. Even Merrill talks about her concern over the plight of the Kirkwall elves in the Alienage, and she supports killing Kelder because he murders elven children.

 

It wouldn't have made much difference had it been human peasantry doing it, it would have ended about the same.

 

Ironically an elf pointed this out to them

 

What happened to Halamshiral was a tragedy. Things might be different if an elven rebellion is supported by the Inquisitor and the Inquisition. If the Dales is their goal, it might be possible to help them gain a homeland.

[Gervaise]

The Dalish simply don't give much thought to what the elves endure in the cities.   They are happy to take in refuges and educate them into the ways of "true" elves but that's about as far as it goes.   If they were really interested they would keep lines of communication going but they aren't so they don't.

 

Merrill was concerned because she was now living among them and could see and experience first hand what it is like to be a city elf.    Had she been able to return to her clan she might have been able to influence them to care more but she couldn't because she was now an outcast.    Marethari took in Feynriel because she owed Hawke a favour over Merrill and she was probably interested in him because he was a dreamer.   On the whole, though, once a Dalish leaves their clan it seems like a one way trip.   They can't spend a period of time living a sedentary life and then go back.   Look at what happened to Zevran's mother.   She fell in love with a woodcutter elf and when he died she was forced into being a prostitute in order to live.   She must have known the general paths that her clan followed during the year so I have to assume she knew she would not be welcome if she went back.

 

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the city elves are any different.   Some of them have a vague sort of hero worship for "elves who never surrendered" but on the whole they don't give them much thought.    Their two cultures have diverged too much for them to have anything much in common except a shared history.   Look at Zevran.   He ran away to join the Dalish as a young elf but thought better of it when he discovered what their life was really like and returned to the comforts of the Crows.