2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

The Dalish simply don't give much thought to what the elves endure in the cities.   They are happy to take in refuges and educate them into the ways of "true" elves but that's about as far as it goes.   If they were really interested they would keep lines of communication going but they aren't so they don't.

I'm not really sure what the Dalish would gain by allowing outsiders to influence their culture.  Refugees are expected to adapt to the clan because solidarity and a monolithic culture increase their chances for survival.  Why should they tolerate a devout Andrastian city elf, for example, railing at them for allowing mages to live among the clan?  And as far as worrying about what the city elves endure?  Well, it's their choice to stay in the slums, isn't it?  Exactly what are the Dalish supposed to do other than hope that they one day decide to take action, either by leaving or making a stronger attempt to gain equal rights within human society?

[Magdalena11]

I'm not really sure what the Dalish would gain by allowing outsiders to influence their culture.  Refugees are expected to adapt to the clan because solidarity and a monolithic culture increase their chances for survival.  Why should they tolerate a devout Andrastian city elf, for example, railing at them for allowing mages to live among the clan?  And as far as worrying about what the city elves endure?  Well, it's their choice to stay in the slums, isn't it?  Exactly what are the Dalish supposed to do other than hope that they one day decide to take action, either by leaving or making a stronger attempt to gain equal rights within human society?

I think the Dalish should be allowed to live as they see fit.  I'd like to see a Dalish culture that would allow an Andrastean city elf to continue their religious beliefs and still live among them, provided the noob didn't step in offering suggestions on how it would be a better world if only everyone thought the way they did.

 

For me, the whole Dalish homeland thing is a question of power.  Of course, a distinct cultural group should have a place to call its own.  Everyone should.  The hard part is deciding who makes the decisions.  The greater the inequality of the wrongs committed, the harder it is to think of a solution that doesn't create a worse mess than what caused it.

[LobselVith8]

I think the Dalish should be allowed to live as they see fit.  I'd like to see a Dalish culture that would allow an Andrastean city elf to continue their religious beliefs and still live among them, provided the noob didn't step in offering suggestions on how it would be a better world if only everyone thought the way they did.

 

For me, the whole Dalish homeland thing is a question of power.  Of course, a distinct cultural group should have a place to call its own.  Everyone should.  The hard part is deciding who makes the decisions.  The greater the inequality of the wrongs committed, the harder it is to think of a solution that doesn't create a worse mess than what caused it.

 

Most of the population of the Dales is elven, and they aren't necessarily Dalish. I imagine the Dalish and the Andrastian elves would have to learn to live together if the nation can become independent of the Orlesian Empire. I think an elven homeland could be a beacon for elves of different backgrounds, so there could be an influx of the multitude of Andrastian elves from all over the continent; elves who may have participated in the Orlesian occupation against Ferelden as Night Elves, elves from pro-necromancy Nevarra, escaped Tevinter slaves, all kinds of men, women, and children. I think there would be some growing pains between the two, but that could make for some interesting storytelling.

[Icy Magebane]

I think the Dalish should be allowed to live as they see fit.  I'd like to see a Dalish culture that would allow an Andrastean city elf to continue their religious beliefs and still live among them, provided the noob didn't step in offering suggestions on how it would be a better world if only everyone thought the way they did.

 

I want to agree with this, but religious freedom tends to be a luxury that only economically stable and culturally advanced nations can afford.  When talking about a purely nomadic people who not only face danger from the environment, but also the native populations of the lands through which they travel, it is difficult to justify religious tolerance.  Keep in mind that the two religions in question are in direct philosophical opposition to one another.  They simply cannot coexist while remaining true to their core values (the main problem being the perspective of each one on magic).  I hate to place blame on the Chantry, but it is a fact that unsanctioned magic cannot be tolerated according to their beliefs.  Furthermore, Chantry doctrine favors proliferation throughout all cultures, whereas the Dalish do not wish to impose their faith on anyone outside of their clans.  Introducing this religion into the Dalish clans is potentially too detrimental to be worth the risk.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm not really sure what the Dalish would gain by allowing outsiders to influence their culture.  Refugees are expected to adapt to the clan because solidarity and a monolithic culture increase their chances for survival.  Why should they tolerate a devout Andrastian city elf, for example, railing at them for allowing mages to live among the clan?  And as far as worrying about what the city elves endure?  Well, it's their choice to stay in the slums, isn't it?  Exactly what are the Dalish supposed to do other than hope that they one day decide to take action, either by leaving or making a stronger attempt to gain equal rights within human society?

And pray tell, where are the City Elves supposed to go? Any Elf that leaves has 4 outcomes. 

 

1) Find the Dalish(but if not willing to sacrifice their culture to join there's, then not an option)

2) End up in another human settlement(in which case end up in another Alienage)

3) End up be captured by slavers

4) End up dead

 

Of those 4, Option 2 is the only one that allows the City Elves to remain who they are. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I want to agree with this, but religious freedom tends to be a luxury that only economically stable and culturally advanced nations can afford.  When talking about a purely nomadic people who not only face danger from the environment, but also the native populations of the lands through which they travel, it is difficult to justify religious tolerance.  Keep in mind that the two religions in question are in direct philosophical opposition to one another.  They simply cannot coexist while remaining true to their core values (the main problem being the perspective of each one on magic).  I hate to place blame on the Chantry, but it is a fact that unsanctioned magic cannot be tolerated according to their beliefs.  Furthermore, Chantry doctrine favors proliferation throughout all cultures, whereas the Dalish do not wish to impose their faith on anyone outside of their clans.  Introducing this religion into the Dalish clans is potentially too detrimental to be worth the risk.

Um, they want to "reeducate" all the other Elves to the Dalish ways. So in that sense, the Dalish and Chantry are the same as in "we want all elves to believe in our religion.". 

[Icy Magebane]

And pray tell, where are the City Elves supposed to go? Any Elf that leaves has 4 outcomes. 

 

1) Find the Dalish(but if not willing to sacrifice their culture to join there's, then not an option)

2) End up in another human settlement(in which case end up in another Alienage)

3) End up be captured by slavers

4) End up dead

 

Of those 4, Option 2 is the only one that allows the City Elves to remain who they are. 

I agree with this post, but what does that have to do with the Dalish allowing their culture to be diluted or altered by outside influences?  The City Elves are free to do whatever they want.  I was merely explaining my thoughts on why the Dalish would not allow outsiders to join the clan unconditionally.

 

 

Um, they want to "reeducate" all the other Elves to the Dalish ways. So in that sense, the Dalish and Chantry are the same as in "we want all elves to believe in our religion.". 

I don't recall any examples of the Dalish attempting to convert anyone who wasn't seeking sanctuary with one of the clans, and I've already stated why I think that's necessary.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree with this post, but what does that have to do with the Dalish allowing their culture to be diluted or altered by outside influences?  The City Elves are free to do whatever they want.  I was merely explaining my thoughts on why the Dalish would not allow outsiders to join the clan unconditionally.

I was addressing this part of your post:

 

I'm not really sure what the Dalish would gain by allowing outsiders to influence their culture.  Refugees are expected to adapt to the clan because solidarity and a monolithic culture increase their chances for survival.  Why should they tolerate a devout Andrastian city elf, for example, railing at them for allowing mages to live among the clan?  And as far as worrying about what the city elves endure?  Well, it's their choice to stay in the slums, isn't it?  Exactly what are the Dalish supposed to do other than hope that they one day decide to take action, either by leaving or making a stronger attempt to gain equal rights within human society?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't recall any examples of the Dalish attempting to convert anyone who wasn't seeking sanctuary with one of the clans, and I've already stated why I think that's necessary.

That's their whole plan. Reclaim lost lore, establish new homeland, educate all non-Dalish Elves to be Dalish. 

[LobselVith8]

That's their whole plan. Reclaim lost lore, establish new homeland, educate all non-Dalish Elves to be Dalish. 

 

The Dalish want to teach elven history, culture, and religion to anyone who shows a willingness to learn, and won't stand in anyone's way who doesn't want to be a part of their society anymore. There's a world of difference between how the Dalish will embrace anyone who willingly wants to be part of their way of life, and (for example) a group like the Qunari who want to impose their philosophy on people by force (i.e. the New Exalted Marches).

[TK514]

Why so fixated on the Dales?  Why not Arlathan Forest north of Antiva?

 

You'd be distant from Orlais, and whatever grudge you've got going on there.  Antiva hasn't cropped up as particularly harsh on elves thus far.  You're close to Rivain which, if Llomerryn is any indication is at least tolerant to Elves, and you'd be conveniently located for elf slaves escaping Tevinter, which is so focused on the Qunari they may not have the manpower to really object to your occupation.  And if you're lucky, you might stumble upon a neat underground ruin of potential historical value.

 

The Dales just doesn't seem to have much going for it in comparison.

[Roamingmachine]

That's their whole plan. Reclaim lost lore, establish new homeland, educate all non-Dalish Elves to be Dalish.

Are any elves obligated to join them? Would they invade other nations to drag their city elves to join them? I don't think so. Any elf is free to continue to enjoy their life as a pet (at best) in the human cities. But if, and that's a big if, the dale elves are the ones who manage to pull off the creation of a new elven nation then they damn well can and should set the rules of behaviour. Those who have done none of the work should have no say on the outcome.

[Xilizhra]

Why so fixated on the Dales?  Why not Arlathan Forest north of Antiva?

 

You'd be distant from Orlais, and whatever grudge you've got going on there.  Antiva hasn't cropped up as particularly harsh on elves thus far.  You're close to Rivain which, if Llomerryn is any indication is at least tolerant to Elves, and you'd be conveniently located for elf slaves escaping Tevinter, which is so focused on the Qunari they may not have the manpower to really object to your occupation.  And if you're lucky, you might stumble upon a neat underground ruin of potential historical value.

 

The Dales just doesn't seem to have much going for it in comparison.

I actually agree with this, though if Arlathan could be the Dalish homeland and the Dales the city elf homeland, that'd be even better.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Dalish want to teach elven history, culture, and religion to anyone who shows a willingness to learn, and won't stand in anyone's way who doesn't want to be a part of their society anymore. There's a world of difference between how the Dalish will embrace anyone who willingly wants to be part of their way of life, and a group like the Qunari who want to impose their philosophy on people by force (i.e. the New Exalted Marches).

I never said it was the same style as the Qun. I said the Chantry and the Dalish are the same when it comes to conversions.

 

 

Are any elves obligated to join them? Would they invade other nations to drag their city elves to join them? I don't think so. Any elf is free to continue to enjoy their life as a pet (at best) in the human cities. But if, and that's a big if, the dale elves are the ones who manage to pull off the creation of a new elven nation then they damn well can and should set the rules of behaviour. Those who have done none of the work should have no say on the outcome.

If this is the case, good for them for not forcing but bad for them for showing they don't care about the other elves like they say they do. If the Dalish set their nation as "Believe in our religion and culture or you can't be here.", they are no better than the humans they hate so much for doing exactly that. 

[Xilizhra]

If this is the case, good for them for not forcing but bad for them for showing they don't care about the other elves like they say they do. If the Dalish set their nation as "Believe in our religion and culture or you can't be here.", they are no better than the humans they hate so much for doing exactly that. 

I believe they'd accept Andrastians who didn't demand exclusivity of worship and didn't try to imprison any mages.

[Icy Magebane]

I never said it was the same style as the Qun. I said the Chantry and the Dalish are the same when it comes to conversions.

 

This is blatantly false.  The Dalish have never attempted to forcibly convert any group, elven or otherwise...  saying that it might happen if the elves get a homeland is speculation, nothing more.

 

 

If this is the case, good for them for not forcing but bad for them for showing they don't care about the other elves like they say they do. If the Dalish set their nation as "Believe in our religion and culture or you can't be here.", they are no better than the humans they hate so much for doing exactly that. 

The perception of the city elves by the Dalish is largely made irrelevant by the fact that the Dalish have no means of influencing or even interacting with the city elves.  The individual beliefs of a city elf are only important when they attempt to join one of the clans. 

 

You seem to be placing a lot of value on hypothetical situations that occur in a very specific manner... one that is not necessarily inevitable.

[LobselVith8]

Why so fixated on the Dales?  Why not Arlathan Forest north of Antiva?

 

The large elven population of the Dales mentioned in "The Masked Empire", the humans fleeing en mass mentioned in "Asunder", and the efforts of Briala, make me suspect that perhaps the plot might concern dislodging the Orlesians from power in the region. I could be wrong, of course. As for Arlathan, I suspect it sank into the Deep Roads, given what Tamlen says about seeing an "underground city", as well as darkspawn emerging from the portal.

 

You'd be distant from Orlais, and whatever grudge you've got going on there.  Antiva hasn't cropped up as particularly harsh on elves thus far.  You're close to Rivain which, if Llomerryn is any indication is at least tolerant to Elves, and you'd be conveniently located for elf slaves escaping Tevinter, which is so focused on the Qunari they may not have the manpower to really object to your occupation.  And if you're lucky, you might stumble upon a neat underground ruin of potential historical value.

 

The Dales just doesn't seem to have much going for it in comparison.

 

I wasn't speaking about what area would be best hypothetically for the elves, I mention the Dales because I genuinely think it may be a possibility in Inquisition. As I said, it's simply speculation; I could be wrong on the matter. Of course, if the Dalish Boon was handwaved in Inqusition, then I hope I'm right and that an elven homeland is possible.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I believe they'd accept Andrastians who didn't demand exclusivity of worship and didn't try to imprison any mages.

I'd be fine with that. Kind of like a "Our national religion is the Elven Pantheon, but pray to your Maker if you want to. Don't try to forcibly change us, we won't try to forcibly change you" type thing. 

[Xilizhra]

I'd be fine with that. Kind of like a "Our national religion is the Elven Pantheon, but pray to your Maker if you want to. Don't try to forcibly change us, we won't try to forcibly change you" type thing. 

"Also, don't say the Creators are false, because we do not say that about the Maker."

[Kalamah]

I never said it was the same style as the Qun. I said the Chantry and the Dalish are the same when it comes to conversions.

 

 

If this is the case, good for them for not forcing but bad for them for showing they don't care about the other elves like they say they do. If the Dalish set their nation as "Believe in our religion and culture or you can't be here.", they are no better than the humans they hate so much for doing exactly that. 

...Did a Dalish kick your puppy or something?

 

But seriously, you keep trying these false equivalencies to cling to this weird notion that the Dalish are somehow just as bad as the Chantry. And it always falls flat due to huge logic holes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is blatantly false.  The Dalish have never attempted to forcibly convert any group, elven or otherwise...  saying that it might happen if the elves get a homeland is speculation, nothing more.

I never said they did. Both the Chantry and Dalish want to spread their religion to those elves willing to listen and convert. For the forcing them to join thing, I was responding to someone who said they should by saying I wouldn't like them for it. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"Also, don't say the Creators are false, because we do not say that about the Maker."

I figured making you question your deity's existence went under the forcibly change us thing.

 

 

...Did a Dalish kick your puppy or something?

 

But seriously, you keep trying these false equivalencies to cling to this weird notion that the Dalish are somehow just as bad as the Chantry. And it always falls flat due to huge logic holes.

No, hence me discussing me wanting them to have a nation. 

 

And they are the same as the Chantry, both good and ill. One is not better than the other. 

[Roamingmachine]

If this is the case, good for them for not forcing but bad for them for showing they don't care about the other elves like they say they do. If the Dalish set their nation as "Believe in our religion and culture or you can't be here.", they are no better than the humans they hate so much for doing exactly that.

Where does it say that the elves have to be better than the humans? The objective is to have a situation where elvenkind does not have to grovel for whatever scraps their human overlords deign to give them, not create some utopian paradise where the lion lies with the lamb. The city elves are free to make a choice, and just because they would consider those who refuse idiots does not mean that the dale elves don't care about them.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd be fine with that. Kind of like a "Our national religion is the Elven Pantheon, but pray to your Maker if you want to. Don't try to forcibly change us, we won't try to forcibly change you" type thing. 

This would be a very reasonable compromise, and one that I hope occurs if the elves ever form a nation.  With the clans spread out and disorganized, however, it would do more harm than good to allow the Andrastian religion to take root among the People.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So pray tell... In this clearly hypothetical Elven nation.... Would a human be able to one day become king, or its equivalent, of the nation?