2113 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Do i need country full of psychotic and racist elves? nah i will pass

What elves really need is solid beating but well they aren't only one everyone in thedas should get one.

[Feybrad]

It's actually funny.

 

I'm at least indifferent if not somewhat unsympathtic towards Elves in my Player Opinion - partly because I enjoy this Trope more than this Trope while the latter is sadly much more relevant, causing me to embrace Portrayals of Elves as an "inferior" Race.

 

However, both Inquisitors I have planned - a Vashoth Warrior and an elven Mage - will be very sympathetic towards the elven Cause and will likely aid them.

[LobselVith8]

Do humans and dwarves need a homeland?

 

Why don't we take away theirs, leave them wandering vagrants or subservient second-class citizens in someone else's continent, and then see if having a homeland is really needed for a people.

 

Which is part of the issue here; some people have no issue with the elves being subservient to humans, in a society where no one cares if a group of women are abducted in broad daylight or if children are being murdered by a serial killer, or with the elves of the Alienages living at the mercy of humans, in a situation where purges are legal, even against children of an orphanage.

 

If the shoe was on the other foot, they'd likely be clamoring for the humans to have their own homeland.

[jtav]

What the city elves need: a ruler with the morals to say "an attack upon an elf is the same as an attack upon a human."

 

What the Dalish need: A safe space in which to practice their religion.

 

Most city elves have no interest in being Dalish and actual Dalish would look down on them with contempt, so a pan-elven homeland is of limited usefulness. Even one that's just for the Dales...*looks uncomfortably at recent newspaper headlines* What's needed are changed hearts on all sides. Tolerance and a willingness to live and let live. The CE boon is a good first step.

[A Clever Name]

I don't know if receiving a state is necessarily the remedy to what ails a dying culture and a brutally oppressed people.  The problem is that the elves were not originally nomadic in lifestyle, so the Dalish clans' current (albeit necessary) way of life doesn't align with what remnants of their culture are still intact; meanwhile the city elves are left to live in squalor.  They are linked through genetics but ultimately have very different upbringings and may as well be two disparate groups.  Attempting to get the two to coexist in a hypothetical revival of the Dales may result in further fractionalization, when what is needed is peaceful cohabitation and the growth of a more national mindset.  Technically if the two groups lived under a respected and legitimate system of governance this could be done, but I've no idea how they would come to a compromise.  It's entirely possible, and I would never say that they couldn't, but I am still skeptical that having a state could revitalize them.  What's most important is that they receive equal treatment, which, as a few in this thread have pointed out, is just as difficult - if not more so - as building a new national identity that all elves electing to live in Neo Dales would need.

 

The problem is that people seem to think it "whiny" that elves complain about their mistreatment.  Passivity has never gained results for marginalized peoples.  They have survived two instances of cultural genocide and live as second-class citizens, and I think that earns them the right to be angry for their situation, so long as they don't err into the field of vengeance.  What have humans ever done for elves that didn't have a bitter aftertaste?

[KC_Prototype]

Yeah, give them the dales or an island and let them be. The Dales is big enough and Orlais is already huge.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't know if receiving a state is necessarily the remedy to what ails a dying culture and a brutally oppressed people.  The problem is that the elves were not originally nomadic in lifestyle, so the Dalish clans' current (albeit necessary) way of life doesn't align with what remnants of their culture are still intact; meanwhile the city elves are left to live in squalor.  They are linked through genetics but ultimately have very different upbringings and may as well be two disparate groups.  Attempting to get the two to coexist in a hypothetical revival of the Dales may result in further fractionalization, when what is needed is peaceful cohabitation and the growth of a more national mindset.  Technically if the two groups lived under a respected and legitimate system of governance this could be done, but I've no idea how they would come to a compromise.  It's entirely possible, and I would never say that they couldn't, but I am still skeptical that having a state could revitalize them.  What's most important is that they receive equal treatment, which, as a few in this thread have pointed out, is just as difficult - if not more so - as building a new national identity that all elves electing to live in Neo Dales would need.

 

The problem is that people seem to think it "whiny" that elves complain about their mistreatment.  Passivity has never gained results for marginalized peoples.  They have survived two instances of cultural genocide and live as second-class citizens, and I think that earns them the right to be angry for their situation, so long as they don't err into the field of vengeance.  What have humans ever done for elves that didn't have a bitter aftertaste?

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I do have an answer for the last line: Andraste's Exalted March on Tevinter. It freed the elves and for centuries they lived in the Dales. While the Dales eventually fall, I wouldn't pin that on what Andraste did for them. 

[LobselVith8]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I do have an answer for the last line: Andraste's Exalted March on Tevinter. It freed the elves and for centuries they lived in the Dales. While the Dales eventually fall, I wouldn't pin that on what Andraste did for them. 

 

Andraste and Shartan fought alongside one another after having both been slaves of Tevinter, with humans and elves fighting against the menace of the Imperium, and ultimately falling because of Maferath's treachery.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Andraste and Shartan fought alongside one another after having both been slaves of Tevinter, with humans and elves fighting against the menace of the Imperium, and ultimately falling because of Maferath's treachery.

I know, but she started it and Shartan and his fellow elves joined soon after. That's what I meant. If it wasn't for her, who knows when, or even if, their slavery would have ended. 

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah, give them the dales or an island and let them be. The Dales is big enough and Orlais is already huge.

I disagree.  The Orlesians aren't obligated to give them anything.  If the elves want land that's currently claimed, they have to be willing to go to war and take it.

[A Clever Name]

 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I do have an answer for the last line: Andraste's Exalted March on Tevinter. It freed the elves and for centuries they lived in the Dales. While the Dales eventually fall, I wouldn't pin that on what Andraste did for them. 

That is a fair point to make - thank you for bringing that up.  It would certainly be ironic from an elven perspective that the Chantry, which claims to venerate Andraste and her morality, would go against her decision to give the elves the Dales.

 

What I meant by the statement was not that humans give elves supposedly "good" and "merciful" things that in truth are hidden means of oppression (for example, allowing elves to live in the cities instead of killing them but forcing them into Alienages), but that, from the perspective of elven people, humans will always do something that the elves are forced to accept without any say in the matter.  It probably wasn't the best phrasing, I admit.

[Jazzpha]

So if someone wouldn't mind lore-checking me on this point, I'm assuming the Exalted March against the Elves happened after Andraste had been martyred?

 

Because otherwise that's one massive cognitive dissonance.

[Wulfram]

So if someone wouldn't mind lore-checking me on this point, I'm assuming the Exalted March against the Elves happened after Andraste had been martyred?

 

Because otherwise that's one massive cognitive dissonance.

 

About 3 centuries later

[Jazzpha]

About 3 centuries later

 

Thanks. Damn shame, but I suppose it's one of those "Jesus isn't his worshippers" situations. Sad stuff.

[TK514]

Which is part of the issue here; some people have no issue with the elves being subservient to humans, in a society where no one cares if a group of women are abducted in broad daylight or if children are being murdered by a serial killer, or with the elves of the Alienages living at the mercy of humans, in a situation where purges are legal, even against children of an orphanage.

 

If the shoe was on the other foot, they'd likely be clamoring for the humans to have their own homeland.

 

Nah, it's just nice seeing the elves getting the short end for a change.  If I want super awesome immortal magic wonderful elves, I can go to virtually every other setting that includes the race.  So if the elves have to get shafted to make the setting stand out and be different from the norm, I'm all for shafting elves.

 

Plus, I'm human.  When it comes down to a race that doesn't exist vs one that does, I tend to associate more closely with the one that does.

 

 

That is a fair point to make - thank you for bringing that up.  It would certainly be ironic from an elven perspective that the Chantry, which claims to venerate Andraste and her morality, would go against her decision to give the elves the Dales.

 

 

Andraste didn't give the Dales to the elves, Maferath did, so the Chantry is in the clear.

[jtav]

What if, instead of a pan-elven or pan-Dalish homeland, various rulers gave territory to a clan. Do we know why Alistair's attempt failed?

[Jazzpha]

What if, instead of a pan-elven or pan-Dalish homeland, various rulers gave territory to a clan. Do we know why Alistair's attempt failed?

 

In what context does he try if he's King? I left Anora on the throne in my DAO playthrough.

[MisterJB]

 

 

That is a fair point to make - thank you for bringing that up.  It would certainly be ironic from an elven perspective that the Chantry, which claims to venerate Andraste and her morality, would go against her decision to give the elves the Dales.

I believe that was Maferath's decision, not Andraste's.

[Iakus]

More than anything else, the elves need to be accepted in the lands they live in.  Most of the city elves probably identify as Ferelden, Orlesian, Antivan, Tevinter, etc anyway.

The Dalish may want a homeland of their own.  And I certainly wouldn't prevent them from having some place they could call home.  But they don't regard city elves as anything but "flat ears" so it's not like they'd be welcome.

 

So elves as a whole?  No, I don't think they need a third homeland.  They just need to not fear the homes they are in now.

[Zana]

In reality, currently city elves live in ghettos whereas Dalish are nomads.  Quite frankly giving an all elven land would merely upgrade the system to a reservation.  Yes, more land, but still confined.  While viable short and medium term, in long term it will fail, just like Dales did - border clashes over minor issues, humans getting greedy and wanting the land back, elves feeling greedy or slighted and attacking. 

 

Ideally the elves would be integrated in the society with equal rights.  However this is problematic not only due to the resistance from the established order (this can be overcome with an equivalent of movement for civil rights), but also the concept of long life/immortality of the elven race if it is removed from human influence as well as desire to preserve original elven culture.  This latter will likely prevent any sort of meaningful attempts of integration from the Dalish elves.

 

So ideally, integrate city elves on equal rights, and go through the cycle of giving land to Dalish (which is likely to fail at a certain point).

[LobselVith8]

I disagree.  The Orlesians aren't obligated to give them anything.  If the elves want land that's currently claimed, they have to be willing to go to war and take it.

 

Perhaps, like the Authority, the elves can take action for a better tomorrow; it would be ideal if that's an option the protagonist can support in Inquisition.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Of course not! I need more than just humans in my peasant class! Need to spread the aristocratic oppression around!

 

Long live the old order! Now if you'll excuse me I need to gorge myself silly on a years worth of food while my peasants starve.

[cjones91]

The elves could always find a unsettled piece of land somewhere south of the Korcari Wilds since it's mostly uninhabited.Anywhere else and they will have to deal with humans who won't share any land at all.

[LobselVith8]

In what context does he try if he's King? I left Anora on the throne in my DAO playthrough.

 

The Hinterlands are given to the Dalish by the new ruler of the kingdom if the Dalish Warden performs the ultimate sacrifice, or if the Dalish Hero of Ferelden asks for land to be given to the People; the Epilogue even addresses that the Dalish settled these lands, and that Lanaya helped keep the peace between the humans and the elves.

 

However, given Alistair's cryptic words to Merrill in Dragon Age II, and the letter about the Hinterlands on the Inquisition website (that reads it's human territory), some people think the developers basically pulled another "Magi Boon" and handwaved it so that humans are still in control of the Hinterlands.

[lil yonce]

I'd say they do. They're a people with their own culture, race, tribal distinction, language, past, religion, etc. That, and they only lost their homeland because crusading zealots forced them out of it and shoved them into ghettos.

 

Kind of like the whole question of Israel, really, in a lot of ways.

Having said that, don't you see why a new Dales - why DA Israel - is a bad idea?