2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

Of course I object to all the nations of Thedas. Feudalism is NOT a great form of government. In my eyes it is even worse than dictatorship.

 

Personally I would rather the Elves get a social rights movement going for them and use non-violent means. Of course, Thedas is a violent place so it is a longshot, but you don't solve issues with even more violence. But equality has to evolve organically, it cannot be forced. And if there is one thing that I am for then it is equality.

This thread is open again?  Ok... instead of trying to remember what I attempted to post, I'll just say that I agree with the ideal you mention here but I don't think it's a practical solution to the current problem.  It's been several centuries, so waiting isn't the answer, yadda, yadda, yadda...

[Tevinter Rose]

The Dalish explicitly mention receiving threats to convert to the Andrastian faith in Act III, and we already know that followers of another faith are viewed as "heathens" by some Andrastians. It's an issue that some are considering about a hypothetical elven kingdom.

 

Is this what you're referring to?

 

Dalish and Templar encounter:

[MisterJB]

The dwarves can collapse the entrances to their domain and not miss the surface one bit. And they control the lyrium supply. The chantry cannot win against them.

Hum... the dwarves rely on the surface for everything that is not ore or nug meat. The Chantry could starve them easily.

Food vs lyrium. Who do you think breaks first?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hum... the dwarves rely on the surface for everything that is not ore or nug meat. The Chantry could starve them easily.

Food vs lyrium. Who do you think breaks first?

Chantry because no lyrium no templars and then mages will blow up everything.

[TheJediSaint]

Hum... the dwarves rely on the surface for everything that is not ore or nug meat. The Chantry could starve them easily.

Food vs lyrium. Who do you think breaks first?

 

How long would it take to eat all the Casteless?

[Pierce Miller]

In any war I've ever read about the army that starves the other is the army that wins

[Basement Cat]

In any war I've ever read about the army that starves the other is the army that wins

The question is: would the Dwarves run out of food before the Chantry runs out of Lyrium? Both armies would be starving each other out, essentially.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In any war I've ever read about the army that starves the other is the army that wins

 

"An army marches on its stomach." - Napoleon Bonaparte  

[Icy Magebane]

Hum... the dwarves rely on the surface for everything that is not ore or nug meat. The Chantry could starve them easily.

Food vs lyrium. Who do you think breaks first?

Just because Orzammar profits from trade with humans doesn't mean that they depend on it.  If that were the case, it would have been pretty impractical to design an underground civilization in the first place... the dwarves don't need humanity in order to survive.

[TheJediSaint]

Just because Orzammar profits from trade with humans doesn't mean that they depend on it.  If that were the case, it would have been pretty impractical to design an underground civilization in the first place... the dwarves don't need humanity in order to survive.

 

Orzammar probably lost their self-sufficiency after they lost almost all the rest of their underground civilization to the Darkspawn.

[LobselVith8]

Is this what you're referring to?

 

Dalish and Templar encounter:

 

No, I meant a scene in Act III; it's dialogue mentioned to Hawke by one of the Dalish during "A Murder of Crows" about the threats the Sabrae Clan have received, given their faith in the Creators. That scene is something that was addressed earlier, where the templars tortured a boy with fire in an attempt to capture Feynriel, while the hunters are willing to fight the templars to protect Arianni's son. Thanks for sharing the scene.

[Daerog]

I don't know if Orz can really be independent. Ya, they had an empire and thrived, but that was before the darkspawn. They lost a lot of land that provided food and other resources. If the surface went to war and besieged Orz, the dwarves would lose.

 

The Chantry doesn't need the lyrium anymore if it is no longer responsible for the mages. It's not like lyrium prevented templars from leaving.

[MisterJB]

Just because Orzammar profits from trade with humans doesn't mean that they depend on it.  If that were the case, it would have been pretty impractical to design an underground civilization in the first place... the dwarves don't need humanity in order to survive.

 

World of Thedas page 35

"Orzammar relies upon the surface not just for its prosperity. but for its survival. Ages of Bligths have taken thousands of thaigs away from the Dwarves. These were the places where most of the food was raised. The dwarven kingdom that endured alone, independent beneath the Stone from time immemorial, perished in the First Blight, faded into myth. Now the remaining dwarves underground cling to existence through a lifeline to the surface, a chain forged from the casteless."

 

Orzammar would literally perish if it managed to anger humanity as a whole. They don't need to invade, they just need to stop selling them food.

[Pierce Miller]

Bluedrake89, on 28 Jul 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

The question is: would the Dwarves run out of food before the Chantry runs out of Lyrium? Both armies would be starving each other out, essentially.

I still feel that food is far more valuable than lyrium but I don't know maybe they can survive on a diet of nugs for a while

[SamaraDraven]

Yes. They should have a homeland. They didn't forfeit the right to have a home when they were forced to leave the one they had. Twice. "What would they do with it"? How arrogant. What would any people do with a homeland? And they'd only lose it if conquerors came again. They need allies. But the majority-Andrastian nations of Thedas see them as heretics for not believing in the Maker. They deserve to be recognized as a people and accorded the same respect but the sub-class they're treated like is sickening and wrong. The LEAST the nations of Thedas should do is give their homeland back and strike a peace accord with them. Whether or not the Dalish and city elves get along is their business and not grounds for being denied a homeland. The tensions between them is the fault OF THE HUMANS that displaced them and kept some of them as slaves. "Do the elves need a homeland"... I really can't believe that is even a question for anyone.

[Master Warder Z_]

Just because Orzammar profits from trade with humans doesn't mean that they depend on it.  If that were the case, it would have been pretty impractical to design an underground civilization in the first place... the dwarves don't need humanity in order to survive.

 

They do if they want to eat more then cave mushrooms and drink more then stagnant water that drips down from the water table.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes. They should have a homeland. They didn't forfeit the right to have a home when they were forced to leave the one they had. Twice. "What would they do with it"? How arrogant. What would any people do with a homeland? And they'd only lose it if conquerors came again. They need allies. But the majority-Andrastian nations of Thedas see them as heretics for not believing in the Maker. They deserve to be recognized as a people and accorded the same respect but the sub-class they're treated like is sickening and wrong. The LEAST the nations of Thedas should do is give their homeland back and strike a peace accord with them. Whether or not the Dalish and city elves get along is their business and not grounds for being denied a homeland. The tensions between them is the fault OF THE HUMANS that displaced them and kept some of them as slaves. "Do the elves need a homeland"... I really can't believe that is even a question for anyone.

 

The fault of the Humans? To be honest, even by Dalish myth the relation between Humanity and Elves was rocky to begin with due to deep seated arrogance on the side of the elves, Admittedly when it comes to the war between the Imperium and elven City State, its mostly conjecture and myth but still, I wouldn't label it the fault of humanity by default.

 

As for the second case? The Fall of the Dales, unlike the original war actually has a bit more information in the lore to then the prior one so it isn't so much wrapped in conjecture as opinion. There is belief, and snippets of proof that the elves struck Orlais first and were cast down for it. Their refusal to aid in the defeat of the blight, likely contributed to Human anger towards the state, but even so the massacre at red crossing still comes to mind.

 

So either way? You have the tensions present that very well could exist for entirely elven motivations, Furthermore the concept of an elven state would require the Kingdom in question where they would to settle, to actually grant the ability to craft a state, and honestly there isn't much incentive to do that, The Elves are a rogue and isolationist race at the worst of times, And who want's a repeat of the second blight? So to me not only is there little to no moral or social obligation to help them forge a state, it also presents a fairly large possible economic and security issue to Thedas.

 

So i am against the notion, unless if it's on Human terms for Human benefit as well.

[Aimi]

World of Thedas page 35
"Orzammar relies upon the surface not just for its prosperity. but for its survival. Ages of Bligths have taken thousands of thaigs away from the Dwarves. These were the places where most of the food was raised. The dwarven kingdom that endured alone, independent beneath the Stone from time immemorial, perished in the First Blight, faded into myth. Now the remaining dwarves underground cling to existence through a lifeline to the surface, a chain forged from the casteless."
 
Orzammar would literally perish if it managed to anger humanity as a whole. They don't need to invade, they just need to stop selling them food.

Which is kinda funny given that large-scale long-range food transport in quantities enough to be relevant is virtually impossible in this period without riverine or ocean transport. Land-based shipments of food would be so fantastically expensive and low-volume that it's hard to imagine Orzammar managing it somehow.

Or, for comparison: historically, the Roman Empire sustained the outsize population of its capital (Rome, then later Constantinople) via state-subsidized shipments of grain from Africa. It was one of the largest items in the imperial exchequer, alongside the army itself. (In related news, water transport of foodstuffs was even needed to sustain Rome's field armies, which were therefore mostly located on rivers, like the Rhine and Danube, or near large bodies of water, as in coastal Syria. Each army was akin to a city, especially when concentrated for campaigns; they had to move almost constantly or risk running out of local forage, because their wagon trains couldn't sustain the entire army with food.) So the Roman Empire spent fantastic sums of money feeding Rome with African grain; when the African grain route was cut (440s for Rome, 610s-40s for Constantinople) the cities starved.

Orzammar isn't Rome, and it doesn't have the sea route to reduce costs to something approaching a manageable level. Unless there's some other water route into the Deep Roads - or unless they can magic the food down there somehow - it's fantastically implausible that Orzammar would import enough of its food from the surface to matter (let alone enough for the dwarves to be reliant on that supply).

Or they might have figured out railroads already. Either way.

[LobselVith8]

The fault of the Humans? To be honest, even by Dalish myth the relation between Humanity and Elves was rocky to begin with due to deep seated arrogance on the side of the elves, Admittedly when it comes to the war between the Imperium and elven City State, its mostly conjecture and myth but still, I wouldn't label it the fault of humanity by default.

 

Tevinter invaded Arlathan and enslaved the elves because the people of Arlathan withdrew contact with Tevinter (according to elven lore, due to the quickening). I don't see a defense for enslaving an entire race of people.

 

As for the second case? The Fall of the Dales, unlike the original war actually has a bit more information in the lore to then the prior one so it isn't so much wrapped in conjecture as opinion. There is belief, and snippets of proof that the elves struck Orlais first and were cast down for it. Their refusal to aid in the defeat of the blight, likely contributed to Human anger towards the state, but even so the massacre at red crossing still comes to mind.

 

There are two historical accounts, and the player isn't privy to which side is the truth; there's absolutely no evidence, either from the developers or even World of Thedas, that clarifies the matter. The Dalish claim humans invaded the Dales because the People wouldn't convert as the inception of the war, while the Chantry says the elves attacked Red Crossing unprovoked and ignited the war. While the elves didn't help Orlais, there's also the issue of Orlais being created through Drakon's conquest of the rest of their neighbors, and even having issues with the Dales that prevented the invasion of the Free Marches. There's also the case of Iloren and his people fighting darkspawn during the Second Blight in the Anderfels. Given the facts, the issue isn't that black and white.

 

So either way? You have the tensions present that very well could exist for entirely elven motivations, Furthermore the concept of an elven state would require the Kingdom in question where they would to settle, to actually grant the ability to craft a state, and honestly there isn't much incentive to do that, The Elves are a rogue and isolationist race at the worst of times, And who want's a repeat of the second blight? So to me not only is there little to no moral or social obligation to help them forge a state, it also presents a fairly large possible economic and security issue to Thedas.

 

I don't see any security issue in giving the elves a homeland where they can build a real future for themselves, and not endure the limitations, prejudice, murders or mass executions at the hands of humans.

 

So i am against the notion, unless if it's on Human terms for Human benefit as well.

 

I'm completely against that. The elves have had to endure this for centuries; it's about time the status quo imposed on the elves came crashing down.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm completely against that. The elves have had to endure this for centuries; it's about time the status quo imposed on the elves came crashing down.

 

Big Surprise 

 

And, Good luck with that, The Impoverished victim trope should remain just as it is.

 

I mean without that, then all we have is horned communists and dwarves...

[SamaraDraven]

The fault of humans I was referring to was the tension between city elves and the Dalish. The Dalish disdain their cousins for living in squalor and accepting scraps from humans instead of living free. This is the humans fault. Keeping elves as slaves for generations and then giving them "freedom" to live in crappy conditions is all on the humans.

For the second Loss of their home: "belief and snippets of evidence aren't justification for being exhiled. That "evidence" could well have been planted by those who wanted the elves gone and ultimately nothing was proven. As for not helping with the Blight? They didn't owe anything to anyone and had no reason to feel they should because of past relations. So they like to be left alone - that doesn't give any country the right to annex their home and make nomads or second class citizens of an entire people. But of course humans = everyone else is lesser and is to be crushed for not living the way such and such says. *eyeroll* The elves aren't a threat to anyone when left alone..

The second Exhalted March against them was entirely about their refusal to accept the Chantry. Because the Chantry has a doctrine against other gods and religions and mages, other Thedosian nations will always see them as a threat. But a threat they are not. Anything they've done against humans was in response to aggression from humans at the start. The reason elves are isolationist is because they used to live very long lives and exposure to humans robbed them of this. They wanted to return to their previous state and humans - predictably - arrogantly took offense to this. They started the conflict because the elves just wanted to be left alone. Conquest isn't their thing. It may not be the most economically or socially easy thing to do but giving the elves a home and leaving them alone isn't a tactical threat to anyone, it's the right thing to do and there's no justification for denying them this. Even when they go try to begin a new homeland on their own - without accepting anything from anyone - they're run off and resisting ends bloody for them. "Accept our way of life and beliefs - and live in squalor for it - wander forever homeless or die". Treating an entire people that way, just because they like to be left alone and don't want to live "in the Maker's light", isn't right. The wrongs committed against them are faaaarrrrr greater than anything they've done to humanity. And humanity started it by not just staying away when asked the first time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

This thread is open again?  Ok... instead of trying to remember what I attempted to post, I'll just say that I agree with the ideal you mention here but I don't think it's a practical solution to the current problem.  It's been several centuries, so waiting isn't the answer, yadda, yadda, yadda...

The point was that I don't want them to wait. I want them to use non-violent means to attain equal rights. So far they ahve been waiting for the world to change, without actively working for it themselves. With a social rights movement, they would be actively trying to change it. And it also avoids enraging the entire Thedosian human population, which I consider a big plus.

[Hellion Rex]

The point was that I don't want them to wait. I want them to use non-violent means to attain equal rights. So far they ahve been waiting for the world to change, without actively working for it themselves. With a social rights movement, they would be actively trying to change it. And it also avoids enraging the entire Thedosian human population, which I consider a big plus.

So, you advocate the slower, peaceful method?

 

Kinda like how Celene was slowly doing things, what with letting elven students into the university and allowing elven merchants of good standing sell their wares in the upper districts?

[Statare]

The point was that I don't want them to wait. I want them to use non-violent means to attain equal rights. So far they ahve been waiting for the world to change, without actively working for it themselves. With a social rights movement, they would be actively trying to change it. And it also avoids enraging the entire Thedosian human population, which I consider a big plus.

 

Um. Thedas does not have a concept of fundamental, "human" rights, let alone fundamental rights of sentient species. The amount of paradigm shifts for Thedosians to change the necessary socio-politcal systems to begin to conceptualize "equal rights" would take centuries. 

 

Thedosian countries do not have constitutions that guarantee their citizens certain rights. Thedosian rulers rule by hereditary, divine authority, or might proves right, and their subjects are subjected to their whims. There is no voting of common people. Non-land-owing commoners (which even Elves are less than, same with mages) have no control over anything. Just look at Orlais, if two Nobles bicker over what color should be the color of the year, the commoners will pay the price in blood while the the Nobles continue to drink spiced Rivaini teas.

 

Reform from the bottom up is hard in a system where only those on the top have any power. Violence, in our world, was the number one way populist movements occurred that toppled hereditary systems of power holding around hereditary nobility. 

[dragonflight288]

The Sabrae clan simply said humans; they never specified that they were templars.

 

Really? Hmm, seems my memory was playing tricks on me. I thought they were talking about templars. The times I've mentioned...man, now I have to replay DA2, or look it up on youtube. 

 

You're the elven authority here on the forums, so chances are you're right and I was wrong when I was talking about it.