Ce sujet est fermé
In any war I've ever read about the army that starves the other is the army that wins
Let's say the Chantry wins. Then what? There wouldn't be anyone whatsoever in their numbers who could go into the deep roads and mine lyrium. And then they'd have to contend with the darkspawn in a never ending blight. No archdemon to kill and no barrier between the darkspawn and the surface.
Even if the chantry wins, they'll lose.
The point was that I don't want them to wait. I want them to use non-violent means to attain equal rights. So far they ahve been waiting for the world to change, without actively working for it themselves. With a social rights movement, they would be actively trying to change it. And it also avoids enraging the entire Thedosian human population, which I consider a big plus.
I'm not opposed to any of that... I'm just not sure if a non-violent solution is possible at this point. I find it hard to believe that the city elves haven't even attempted to be heard in all these generations. If they have, then those efforts haven't gone very far. If any charismatic champions for elven rights have emerged, their voices haven't been recorded by history. Maybe once purges become illegal they will be able to more effectively hold non-violent protests against their situation? That would still depend on an act of mercy on the part of the humans, which is why I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, if ever.
Let's say the Chantry wins. Then what? There wouldn't be anyone whatsoever in their numbers who could go into the deep roads and mine lyrium. And then they'd have to contend with the darkspawn in a never ending blight. No archdemon to kill and no barrier between the darkspawn and the surface.
Even if the chantry wins, they'll lose.
Why are you assuming a Chantry victory would result in Dwarven extinction? All they'd have to do was hold out until starvation led to Orzammar surrendering.
Besides, there is nothing that indicates it is 100% impossible for humans to mine raw lyrium. The dwarves just have an inbuilt resistance and thus it's safer for them but that doesn't mean no one else can do it.
*blah blah blah, poor elves, humans bad, blah blah blah*
As for not helping with the Blight? They didn't owe anything to anyone and had no reason to feel they should because of past relations. So they like to be left alone - that doesn't give any country the right to annex their home and make nomads or second class citizens of an entire people. But of course humans = everyone else is lesser and is to be crushed for not living the way such and such says. *eyeroll* The elves aren't a threat to anyone when left alone.
*blah blah blah*
Most of this is open to debate. The bit about the Blight is not. The Blight isn't some worrisome skirmish between nations. The Blight is a threat to all non-Darkspawn life, regardless what shape its ears are. By not assisting in the war against the Darkspawn, they were presenting themselves as using the Blight as a weapon against humanity as well as being incredibly short sighted. Had Orlais no managed to stop the Blight, the Dales would have stood alone against the Horde. That is not even a remotely rational or responsible stance for a government, much less individuals, to take.
As for the defense of "The Tale of Ilen", it's hardly anything of the sort. This wasn't the case of some clan of elves assisting the world, thus proving that elves helped out. It's a case of a possibly non-existent clan of elves fleeing until they couldn't flee anymore and only then turning to fight of their survival.
And I say possibly non-existent since they are presented as a clan of Dalish elves before such a social structure even existed. So, at best, this was a group of non-Dalish elves who fought because they had no choice, at worst they are a complete fabrication.
"All the human peasants are fleeing the Dales due to the civil war! Now is the time for the Dalish to strike!"
Yes, strike the location where the entire military might of Orlais is assembled and give them an exterior threat to unite against. This is a brilliant idea, and I fully support it.
Now I have this image of bored knights roasting marshmallows then the Dalish jump out of the bushes all gung ho and the knights just go "finally something to do!" 
The fault of humans I was referring to was the tension between city elves and the Dalish. The Dalish disdain their cousins for living in squalor and accepting scraps from humans instead of living free. This is the humans fault. Keeping elves as slaves for generations and then giving them "freedom" to live in crappy conditions is all on the humans.
Wait, so the humans try to provide a home for displaced elves; the Dalish see this as demeaning and thus look down on those who accepted; and this is the human's fault?
Should they have left them homeless? They could have. Or killed them all, they could have done that too.
As for not helping with the Blight? They didn't owe anything to anyone and had no reason to feel they should because of past relations. So they like to be left alone - that doesn't give any country the right to annex their home and make nomads or second class citizens of an entire people.
If theDales had no obligation to assist Orlais, then why should Orlais have any obligation towards its continued existence?
The second Exhalted March against them was entirely about their refusal to accept the Chantry. Because the Chantry has a doctrine against other gods and religions and mages, other Thedosian nations will always see them as a threat. But a threat they are not. Anything they've done against humans was in response to aggression from humans at the start.
Shall I assume you have some unquestionable evidence proving this was all about religion; that commerce, border disputes, refusal of civilized discourse by the elves had nothing to do with it; and that the humans struck first?
Or is this all "I got a feeling this is all because of the Chantry because they have a doctrine against other religions." kind of argument?
I mean, it's not like the elves don't have a doctrine against humans. They think they're plague bearing rats that take immortality away.
The reason elves are isolationist is because they used to live very long lives and exposure to humans robbed them of this.
Evidence! Where's your evidence?
They wanted to return to their previous state and humans - predictably - arrogantly took offense to this.
You mean the whole "We used to be immortal but then these quick children came around" isn't arrogance?
They started the conflict because the elves just wanted to be left alone.
Still not going to provide evidence for any of these outlandish claims?
The wrongs committed against them are faaaarrrrr greater than anything they've done to humanity.
They were sacking human cities. What was Orlais supposed to do? Ask them to please go away?
Orlais just did what the elves were trying to do to it.
It may not be the most economically or socially easy thing to do but giving the elves a home and leaving them alone isn't a tactical threat to anyone,
Nations usually consider it a tactical threat if they have no idea of the military and economic capabilities of their neighbors who are rather antagonistic towards them to begin with.
At least Orlais tried to extablish commercial and diplomatic ties as evidenced by this codex.
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
"They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse."
And guess what, if the Dales started it, then, evidently, they were a tactical threat.
City Elf, without hesitation or remorse.
Yup.
Why are you assuming a Chantry victory would result in Dwarven extinction? All they'd have to do was hold out until starvation led to Orzammar surrendering.
Besides, there is nothing that indicates it is 100% impossible for humans to mine raw lyrium. The dwarves just have an inbuilt resistance and thus it's safer for them but that doesn't mean no one else can do it.
Say the dwarves surrender, and are forced to convert to the Chantry. Would the Divine require them to live in human cities like they did after the Dales were conquered? Or would they assign templar overseers over the dwarven people?
And if they didn't do this and the dwarves did die you, you would need decades, centuries of humans or elves living underground to build up the necessary resistance to mine lyrium WHILE also contending with the darkspawn advancing constantly in a never ending a blight.
It's a bleak future no matter how you look at it, and the Chantry does not have the history to support them taking care of the dwarves once conquered.
I'm not opposed to any of that... I'm just not sure if a non-violent solution is possible at this point. I find it hard to believe that the city elves haven't even attempted to be heard in all these generations. If they have, then those efforts haven't gone very far. If any charismatic champions for elven rights have emerged, their voices haven't been recorded by history. Maybe once purges become illegal they will be able to more effectively hold non-violent protests against their situation? That would still depend on an act of mercy on the part of the humans, which is why I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, if ever.
It's been the better part of a millennia for the elves who have had the misfortune of living in the Alienages, so I'm not expecting it to change, either. If Inquisition provides an opportunity to give the elves a homeland, then I'm inclined to seize on the opportunity, instead of doing nothing and hoping that things change. Even Celene, who was romantically involved with an elf, was willing to massacre thousands of elves in Halamshiral as a means of rebuking the criticism against her by her political opponent, so I'm not holding my breath.
After all, it's not like Andraste and Shartan wrote the Imperium a strongly worded letter when they wanted things to change, so I don't see why the elves should have to continue to suffer.
Ok after reading through this topic to page 18...
How the Hell has this not been closed down yet?
Ok after reading through this topic to page 18...
How the Hell has this not been closed down yet?
Because people are interested in addressing the prospect of an elven homeland? As long as we speak civilly about it, I don't see why the thread should be closed.
In case anyone was curious about the shift from elves wearing shoes in Dragon Age II (which also seemed to pop up somewhat with the concept art for the three female Inquisitors that included a Dalish elf), Gaider said:
No. The artists have this thing about elves and shoes. Don't get me started.
Perfect for the Elves
From the Dales to the new homeland,
"We Made It"
Because people are interested in addressing the prospect of an elven homeland? As long as we speak civilly about it, I don't see why the thread should be closed.
In case anyone was curious about the shift from elves wearing shoes in Dragon Age II (which also seemed to pop up somewhat with the concept art for the three female Inquisitors that included a Dalish elf), Gaider said:
Seems more like just arguing to me but whatever.
Ok after reading through this topic to page 18...
How the Hell has this not been closed down yet?
Well, it was for a little bit. A mod came and cleaned some posts that personally insulted some posters up.
This is a festival of love and hugs compared to the templar vs mage threads of yore. I really miss that one thread, i think it went over 100 pages, or maybe my memory is exaggerating it. Good times.
This is a festival of love and hugs compared to the templar vs mage threads of yore. I really miss that one thread, i think it went over 100 pages, or maybe my memory is exaggerating it. Good times.
Hehheh sometimes I wonder if the forum goers actually like tearing into each other. 
The dailish escaped. Stopping exiles wasn't a priority. The city elves old religion was banned. Generally the chantry doesn't force conversation but that was an example.
The Chantry also didn't have to command the nations of Thedas to be merciful and provide places for the elves to live. They probably prevented the elves from being hunted down and exterminated then and there.
So, you advocate the slower, peaceful method?
Kinda like how Celene was slowly doing things, what with letting elven students into the university and allowing elven merchants of good standing sell their wares in the upper districts?
Slow and steady wins the race, you know.
Um. Thedas does not have a concept of fundamental, "human" rights, let alone fundamental rights of sentient species. The amount of paradigm shifts for Thedosians to change the necessary socio-politcal systems to begin to conceptualize "equal rights" would take centuries.
Thedosian countries do not have constitutions that guarantee their citizens certain rights. Thedosian rulers rule by hereditary, divine authority, or might proves right, and their subjects are subjected to their whims. There is no voting of common people. Non-land-owing commoners (which even Elves are less than, same with mages) have no control over anything. Just look at Orlais, if two Nobles bicker over what color should be the color of the year, the commoners will pay the price in blood while the the Nobles continue to drink spiced Rivaini teas.
Reform from the bottom up is hard in a system where only those on the top have any power. Violence, in our world, was the number one way populist movements occurred that toppled hereditary systems of power holding around hereditary nobility.
Nevetheless Humans DOES feel superior to Elves, and it is this that needs to be worked on. If Elves prove themselves equally worthy as any human, then things might start improving. Going to war, killing countless humans in the process, will NOT endear the Elves. It will NOT make humans repsect Elves. And it will only lead to more Elven death in the long run.
Celene had the right idea about the process, but she was a fool in choosing her allies in the Game.
I'm not opposed to any of that... I'm just not sure if a non-violent solution is possible at this point. I find it hard to believe that the city elves haven't even attempted to be heard in all these generations. If they have, then those efforts haven't gone very far. If any charismatic champions for elven rights have emerged, their voices haven't been recorded by history. Maybe once purges become illegal they will be able to more effectively hold non-violent protests against their situation? That would still depend on an act of mercy on the part of the humans, which is why I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, if ever.
There have already been several signs of improvement in recent years. Ferelden potentially having the first Elven Bann, and Orlais allowing Elven students attend university. All of this would eventually leads to life improvements for the Elves. War and death would not.
There's really no evidence that the Chantry influence made the treatment of the elves any better or any worse in the wake of the fall of Halamshiral. Any speculation about what Orlais might have done is pointless.
Other than the fact that the Divine straight up ORDERED all Andrastian nations to harbor the Elven refugees and provide living spaces for them.... And you can be pretty damn sure that if she hadn't all Elves would have been exiles, instead of just the Dalish.
Other than the fact that the Divine straight up ORDERED all Andrastian nations to harbor the Elven refugees and provide living spaces for them.... And you can be pretty damn sure that if she hadn't all Elves would have been exiles, instead of just the Dalish.
Maybe that would have been meaningful if their religion hadn't been banned. As it is, it's just unwillingly gathering converts.
Maybe that would have been meaningful if their religion hadn't been banned. As it is, it's just unwillingly gathering converts.
Because the Chantry is just desperate for converts. They only have the ears of the Anderfels, Orlais, Nevarra, the Free Marches, Ferelden, Antiva and parts of Rivain with there not being a single influential non-Andrastean organization in these countries.
Because the Chantry is just desperate for converts. They only have the ears of the Anderfels, Orlais, Nevarra, the Free Marches, Ferelden, Antiva and parts of Rivain with there not being a single influential non-Andrastean organization in these countries.
There are actually two influential non-Andrastian organizations in Rivain, but the point is that the Chantry wants complete victory, and the existence of an independent non-Andrastian nation next to Orlais was apparently too much for them to stomach.
You'd think that near the end of the game the Inquisitor would have quite a bit of influence within Thedas, perhaps we can use this to help the elves or hinder them depending on your opinion.
You'd think that near the end of the game the Inquisitor would have quite a bit of influence within Thedas, perhaps we can use this to help the elves or hinder them depending on your opinion.
"Hey elves here a ticket to lovely and cozy Tevinter."
Retour en haut
