2113 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

There are actually two influential non-Andrastian organizations in Rivain, but the point is that the Chantry wants complete victory, and the existence of an independent non-Andrastian nation next to Orlais was apparently too much for them to stomach.

 

No, the point you were making was that the Chantry sheltered the elves for no reason other than wanting converts despite the fact nearly everyone in Thedas is an Andrastean and religions tending to accept dead heretics as easily as converts.

In fact, they usually prefer to kill them. It spares the trouble of having to spend the next decades making sure they aren't heretics in everything but name.

 

As for the Chantry and the Dales, the idea that the Chantry would sooner go to war than accept a non-Andrastean neighboring nation does not stand up to the fact. If they were just looking for war, why not declare an Exalted March as soon as the elves massacred Red Crossing? Why wait until other cities were sacked and the elves were on the very doorstep of Val-Royeaux?

Unless, of course, the March was merely an act of self-defence and their attempts at convertion were being restricted to missionaries.

 

Seems to me the elves caused their own destruction and if anyone has ensured the continued existence of the elven race, it was the Chantry when they ordered Andrastean nations take in refugees.

[Steelcan]

yes they do, that way when they screw up again and lose a war to humans we can wipe them out in one swoop

[Xilizhra]

No, the point you were making was that the Chantry sheltered the elves for no reason other than wanting converts despite the fact nearly everyone in Thedas is an Andrastean and religions tending to accept dead heretics as easily as converts.

In fact, they usually prefer to kill them. It spares the trouble of having to spend the next decades making sure they aren't heretics in everything but name.

Oddly, no religions in Thedas seem to do this. Even the qunari prefer to tear apart the minds of the recalcitrant and enslave them. The patterns clearly differ (though even in our own world, religious exterminations of heathen nations don't exactly seem common).

 

 

As for the Chantry and the Dales, the idea that the Chantry would sooner go to war than accept a non-Andrastean neighboring nation does not stand up to the fact. If they were just looking for war, why not declare an Exalted March as soon as the elves massacred Red Crossing? Why wait until other cities were sacked and the elves were on the very doorstep of Val-Royeaux?

Unless, of course, the March was merely an act of self-defence and their attempts at convertion were being restricted to missionaries.

The Chantry can't go to war on its own, the templars aren't a full army. They have to call in an Exalted March, and it would seem that Orlais didn't want a war it wasn't entirely sure it could win at the time. It proves nothing other than that an empire can't be conquering everyone all the time.

If religion didn't have anything to do with the conflict, the Chantry wouldn't have demanded conversion.

 

Seems to me the elves caused their own destruction and if anyone has ensured the continued existence of the elven race, it was the Chantry when they ordered Andrastean nations take in refugees.

Along with the attempted obliteration of elven culture.

[Steelcan]

 

The Chantry can't go to war on its own, the templars aren't a full army. They have to call in an Exalted March, and it would seem that Orlais didn't want a war it wasn't entirely sure it could win at the time. It proves nothing other than that an empire can't be conquering everyone all the time.

If religion didn't have anything to do with the conflict, the Chantry wouldn't have demanded conversion.

Not necessarily, they could have demanded conversiona s a way to try and start assimilating elves into Orlais.  Religious unity in a population tends to help assuade things like rebellions, keeping a persecuted cultural minority is easier if they are still the same religion

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Maybe that would have been meaningful if their religion hadn't been banned. As it is, it's just unwillingly gathering converts.

 

Hear hear! Should have just completely exterminated them! Then you and yours would only be whinning about mage rights!

[Xilizhra]

Not necessarily, they could have demanded conversiona s a way to try and start assimilating elves into Orlais.  Religious unity in a population tends to help assuade things like rebellions, keeping a persecuted cultural minority is easier if they are still the same religion

Right, better to wipe out their culture altogether.

 

And there's another reason why the elves would be left alive... because slavery in Orlais is illegal in the same way that blood magic in Tevinter is.

[MisterJB]

Oddly, no religions in Thedas seem to do this. Even the qunari prefer to tear apart the minds of the recalcitrant and enslave them. The patterns clearly differ (though even in our own world, religious exterminations of heathen nations don't exactly seem common).

The Qun aren't a religion anymore than communism is a religion.

And if the Chantry behaves in a humane manner, that is to its credit. It would have been much easier to just let all the elves die; some impoverished elves living in alienages are not the foundation of Andrastean society.

But they spared them.

 

 

The Chantry can't go to war on its own, the templars aren't a full army. They have to call in an Exalted March, and it would seem that Orlais didn't want a war it wasn't entirely sure it could win at the time. It proves nothing other than that an empire can't be conquering everyone all the time.

If religion didn't have anything to do with the conflict, the Chantry wouldn't have demanded conversion.

No one has claimed religion didn't play a role. But there's a difference between it playing a role and the war being instigated by the Chantry because it just couldn't tolerate a non-Andrastean nation.

 

Orlais went to the war first; that was my point. Orlais had been fighting the Dales for some time before the Chantry called for an Exalted March and, presumably, sent Templars and mages to assist Orlesian forces and only after the elves threatened the Orlesian capital.

This clashes with the idea of an warmongering Chantry trying to push Orlais and the Dales into war with propaganda.

Of course, once they were victorious, there was absolutely no reason not to push conversion onto them.
 

 

Along with the attempted obliteration of elven culture.

And the ones who accepted were those who preferred to live over preserving elven culture.

Considering the difference in numbers between city elves and the dalish, I'd say most of them did.

[Steelcan]

Right, better to wipe out their culture altogether.

 

And there's another reason why the elves would be left alive... because slavery in Orlais is illegal in the same way that blood magic in Tevinter is.

its possible to have different cultures co-exist in one empire with relative peace, of course it is easier to simply kill everyone then move in your own people but that is neiother here nor there, and religious unity is pretty important in that.

 

when Rome was disintegrating, one of the ways that it was held together for a another century and a half was the institution of Christianity as the State-Religion, it alllowed for the increasingly diverse empire to find common ground through out it.

[Xilizhra]

The Qun aren't a religion anymore than communism is a religion.

And if the Chantry behaves in a humane manner, that is to its credit. It would have been much easier to just let all the elves die; some impoverished elves living in alienages are not the foundation of Andrastean society.

But they spared them.

Why just kill those you can have work for you?

 

 

No one has claimed religion didn't play a role. But there's a difference between it playing a role and the war being instigated by the Chantry because it just couldn't tolerate a non-Andrastean nation.

 

Orlais went to the war first; that was my point. Orlais had been fighting the Dales for some time before the Chantry called for an Exalted March and, presumably, sent Templars and mages to assist Orlesian forces and only after the elves threatened the Orlesian capital.

This clashes with the idea of an warmongering Chantry trying to push Orlais and the Dales into war with propaganda.

Of course, once they were victorious, there was absolutely no reason not to push conversion onto them.

Aside from it being morally repugnant? I would agree that the Chantry didn't start the war outright... but only because they tried to convert the Dales peacefully first. Once armed incursions started entering Dalish territory, things were going to explode no matter what.

 

 

And the ones who accepted were those who preferred to live over preserving elven culture.

Considering the difference in numbers between city elves and the dalish, I'd say most of them did.

The ones who accepted were the ones who couldn't escape.

[Steelcan]

 

Aside from it being morally repugnant? I would agree that the Chantry didn't start the war outright... but only because they tried to convert the Dales peacefully first. Once armed incursions started entering Dalish territory, things were going to explode no matter what.

 

 

The ones who accepted were the ones who couldn't escape.

attempted conversions and armed escorts for priests are not reasons to go to war.  There is no evidence that the Chantry was carrying out violent attacks on Elven lands nor is there evidence to suggest that they were forcibly converting anyone.

 

Proof?

[Xilizhra]

attempted conversions and armed escorts for priests are not reasons to go to war.  There is no evidence that the Chantry was carrying out violent attacks on Elven lands nor is there evidence to suggest that they were forcibly converting anyone.

 

Proof?

What would you do if a foreign army started entering your country after you told their officials to leave?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

attempted conversions and armed escorts for priests are not reasons to go to war.  There is no evidence that the Chantry was carrying out violent attacks on Elven lands nor is there evidence to suggest that they were forcibly converting anyone.

 

Proof?

 

Proof! PROOF! Isn't it obvious that the elves are innocent special snowflakes who would never cause their own problems. *Cough Zathrian* *Cough Merrill's clan* *Cough cough Velana* *Cough hack* The clan from TME *Wheeze*

[Steelcan]

What would you do if a foreign army started entering your country after you told their officials to leave?

it isn't a foreign army, its priests with body guards, and given the hostility of elves towards humans and the Chantry an armed escort is not unreasonable.

 

If you have proof that the chantry was sending in thousands of templars and clerics then we can talk about an invading army

[Xilizhra]

it isn't a foreign army, its priests with body guards, and given the hostility of elves towards humans and the Chantry an armed escort is not unreasonable.

 

If you have proof that the chantry was sending in thousands of templars and clerics then we can talk about an invading army

Regardless of the size, it's still foreign armed intruders entering without permission. That's more or less an act of war by itself.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Didn't dales said "no thanks we don't want you here" to the chantry then chantry started to send templars with priests there?

 

Well i mean pretty much rather agressive behavior from chantry side no means no

 

I mean even now they can shoot you down if you cross the boundaries without permission.

[MisterJB]

"Seven hundred years ago the elven nation fell on these very fields. The elven army was defeated by the human Chantry, defending their land to the last breath.

The Exalted Plains are now a contested battlefield in the Orlesian Civil War. As the Veil tears throughout Thedas, the spirits stir beyond the veil to possess the dead."

 

I wonder if that means we'll be killing the Dalish soldiers...again. They rise seeking revenge against the orlesian soldiers and the Inquisitor cuts them down.

[Steelcan]

Regardless of the size, it's still foreign armed intruders entering without permission. That's more or less an act of war by itself.

preaching is not an act of war, if the clerics and templars were forcibly converting it MIGHT be, but there is no evidence that the elves weren't joining of their own free will

 

if the templars were being used to round up elves and kill/convert the populcae it'd be a cause for war, defending preachers is not

[Xilizhra]

"Seven hundred years ago the elven nation fell on these very fields. The elven army was defeated by the human Chantry, defending their land to the last breath.

The Exalted Plains are now a contested battlefield in the Orlesian Civil War. As the Veil tears throughout Thedas, the spirits stir beyond the veil to possess the dead."

 

I wonder if that means we'll be killing the Dalish soldiers...again. They rise seeking revenge against the orlesian soldiers and the Inquisitor cuts them down.

Eh, that's no more killing the Dalish than the fight against Connor's demon was slaughtering Redcliffe's castle staff.

 

 

preaching is not an act of war, if the clerics and templars were forcibly converting it MIGHT be, but there is no evidence that the elves weren't joining of their own free will

 

if the templars were being used to round up elves and kill/convert the populcae it'd be a cause for war, defending preachers is not

Armed border violations, however, are. The Chantry was saying "we do not respect your national sovereignty and will go wherever we damn well please; your rules don't apply to us." So if you want to criticize the Dalish for doing that (when they have nowhere else to go), just remember that the Chantry did it first and harder.

[TheKomandorShepard]

preaching is not an act of war, if the clerics and templars were forcibly converting it MIGHT be, but there is no evidence that the elves weren't joining of their own free will

 

if the templars were being used to round up elves and kill/convert the populcae it'd be a cause for war, defending preachers is not

Any external force that crosses the boundaries without country permission is treated as a threat pretty much if you will keep doing that after country refuse it pretty much means war.

[Steelcan]

Armed border violations, however, are. The Chantry was saying "we do not respect your national sovereignty and will go wherever we damn well please; your rules don't apply to us." So if you want to criticize the Dalish for doing that (when they have nowhere else to go), just remember that the Chantry did it first and harder.

then they can take it up with the Chantry, invading Orlais in retaliation is not the answer, stepping up border security perhaps

[MisterJB]

Why just kill those you can have work for you?

This despite how the elves can't find work because people are barely willing to see them outside the alienage?

They aren't slaves; even they will tell you they aren't slaves.

 

 

Aside from it being morally repugnant?

It's a religion. Why would you expect morality?

 

 

I would agree that the Chantry didn't start the war outright... but only because they tried to convert the Dales peacefully first. Once armed incursions started entering Dalish territory, things were going to explode no matter what.

1-First of all, there is no evidence the Chantry ever sent armed incursions beyond the Exalted March. The elves claim they sent Templars, but they could be referring to the March. They never specify.

 

2-Guards protecting priests are, hardly, an armed incursion, if they existed at all.

 

3-If the Dales had grievances with the Chantry, it should have made a distinction between it and Orlais. Attacking humans because they are human and Andrastean is no more moral.

 

Of course, there were border disputes between Orlais and the Dales. This war wasn't all about religion.

 

 

The ones who accepted were the ones who couldn't escape.

Or maybe they prefered a life within human cities than in the wilderness. We don't know on which terms this happened. Maybe the elves came begging for refuge.

Even if they didn't, they still made the conscious choice of abandoning elven culture.

[Steelcan]

Any external force that crosses the boundaries without country permission is treated as a threat pretty much if you will keep doing that after country refuse it pretty much means war.

So invading a seperate entity from the Chantry is the answer?

 

The Dalish should have just kicked them out and left it there, invading a nation beause there were priests saying things they didn't like that came from the nation is not solid reasoning

[Xilizhra]

then they can take it up with the Chantry, invading Orlais in retaliation is not the answer, stepping up border security perhaps

They can't reach the Chantry without going through Orlais, and the Chantry is practically just another branch of the empire.

 

 

This despite how the elves can't find work because people are barely willing to see them outside the alienage?

They aren't slaves; even they will tell you they aren't slaves.

Well, they aren't slaves in Ferelden.

 

 

1-First of all, there is no evidence the Chantry ever sent armed incursions beyond the Exalted March. The elves claim they sent Templars, but they could be referring to the March. They never specify.

 

2-Guards protecting priests are, hardly, an armed incursion, if they existed at all.

 

3-If the Dales had grievances with the Chantry, it should have made a distinction between it and Orlais. Attacking humans because they are human and Andrastean is no more moral.

 

Of course, there were border disputes between Orlais and the Dales. This war wasn't all about religion.

Again, foreign military intruders, regardless of the numbers they arrive in, are an act of war.

 

And they were aiming for Val Royeaux, which is the seat of the Chantry. Once it had fallen, the odds of the Dales bothering to occupy Orlais afterward strike me as slim.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So invading a seperate entity from the Chantry is the answer?

 

The Dalish should have just kicked them out and left it there, invading a nation beause there were priests saying things they didn't like that came from the nation is not solid reasoning

Not rly separate... chantry was/is stronly pro-orlesian besides that their forces reside in orlais so pretty much even if you wanted you couldn't attack chantry without attacking orlais or even humans because chantry were part of orlais and one of human culture.  

 

They did kick them out from what i heard but they came back just with military force which pretty much would be seen as declaration of war even in our modern times.

[Steelcan]

They can't reach the Chantry without going through Orlais, and the Chantry is practically just another branch of the empire.

 

 

Again, foreign military intruders, regardless of the numbers they arrive in, are an act of war.

 

And they were aiming for Val Royeaux, which is the seat of the Chantry. Once it had fallen, the odds of the Dales bothering to occupy Orlais afterward strike me as slim.

Technically the Chantry is a seperate organisation, in reality its not the clear of a distinction admittedly, but that's why they should have stepped up border security instead of invading.

 

Templars aren't any nations military, they are a religious order that serves the Chantry, and there is no evidence of any misconduct on their part, and as MisterJB said, we don't know if they arrived with the March or not, the elven account does not specify.

 

They sacked several cities besides Val Royeaux, for all we know they could have intended to grab more land, don't try and pain the elven attack as a limited operation designed to stop the Chantry.