2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Oh I'd never be one to say that Elves get a good deal, especially in Tevinter or Orlais.

 

But giving them their own homeland isn't the answer. Positive social change in a setting like this won't be accomplished by the masses rising up. Their only chance would be to get support from the Nobility and that won't happen. Forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence, and it won't work.

 

An elven merchant who gains a reputation for tough but fair dealing does more for elven rights than a thousand Dalish bowmen.

 

The elves CAN work towards a brigther future, but they can't do it by force of arms. I just hope they're smart enough to know that.

[TheJediSaint]

They actually need allies first, how would a nation survive on it's own unless it had immense amounts of power?

 

Also, whose land are you going to take away to make this homeland?

[Gervaise]

Orlais doesn't officially have slavery but there was a codex which said that, with the exception of blood magic, there is often little difference between the rights of elves in the empire and Tevinter.    The majority treat elven servants like dirt, beat them for trivialities like another noble criticising the food at a banquet and let us not forget the Chevalier right of passage which is basically go into the alienage and kill as many elves as you can find.     Felassen was pointing out to Briala that Arlathan would have had servants, even if they weren't actually slaves, and the elven nobility may well have not treated their servants any better than Orlesian nobles do.

 

However, there is an interesting passage in one of the codex about the History of Arlathen, where the keeper making the account mentions how in Arlathan they regarded the first humans in much the same way that humans do city elves today.     Who is to say that the elves didn't make slaves of the humans?    The dwarves certainly had slaves at the time of the Teviner Imperium as Corypheus makes mention of this.    It is highly likely that all nations had slaves at one time just as was the case in our own history.   It was one of the chief uses for people captured in raids and wars.

[LobselVith8]

They actually need allies first, how would a nation survive on it's own unless it had immense amounts of power?

 

I think a treaty between the elves of an independent Dales and the leadership of Ferelden could be forged, given the mutual concern the two would have about Orlais and their inclination for conquest.

[Samahl]

Forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence, and it won't work.

 

Um... the American Revolution?

[LobselVith8]

Um... the American Revolution?

 

Quite true; sometimes, violence is necessary for people to gain their freedom. Or, if we need a Thedas equivalent, the battles launched against the Imperium by Shartan and Andraste. Or the war against the Qunari called the New Exalted Marches.

[Master Warder Z_]

Um... the American Revolution?

 

Only occurred because all other political avenues failed, If you know anything about that conflict you cited, you know the majority of the Founding Father's wanted nothing to do with an armed resistance against the English.

 

Furthermore if you want to be blunt? It did impact things in a negative light between the newly formed united states, and the British Empire, for decades to come, You could argue that war was what led to the attempted British invasion of 1812. Wars beget Wars or so the saying goes.

[Samahl]

Only occurred because all other political avenues failed, If you know anything about that conflict you cited, you know the majority of the Founding Father's wanted nothing to do with an armed resistance against the English.

 

Furthermore if you want to be blunt? It did impact things in a negative light between the newly formed united states, and the British Empire, for decades to come, You could argue that war was what led to the attempted British invasion of 1812. Wars beget Wars or so the saying goes.

 

None of this changes the fact that it worked. Sometimes violence is the solution.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Um... the American Revolution?

 

Notice the difference in time period, an ocean, and intervention of foreign powers.

 

Orlais has greater numbers, can simply MARCH to the Dales, and the elves would have no foreign powers willing to give them the vital support they would need.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Other than the fact that the Divine straight up ORDERED all Andrastian nations to harbor the Elven refugees and provide living spaces for them.... And you can be pretty damn sure that if she hadn't all Elves would have been exiles, instead of just the Dalish.

This is true if you assume that the Divine spared them from a much worse default fate like genocide, but no lore source mentions one. You could just as easily imagine that the Divine decree vindictive subjected the elves to ethnic cleansing because she was not satisfied with merely conquering an unbeliever people, she had to rob them of their culture too. It is not like Orlais made a point of deporting Ferelden cities into poor ghettos across the continent or dismantling the notion of the Ferelden nation when they conquered it.

[Master Warder Z_]

None of this changes the fact that it worked. Sometimes violence is the solution.

 

Oh, i don't deny that, i also won't deny that that the formation of a elven state through war will only result in what is appropriate for said action.

 

History has been plain to what happens when elves attempt war against Humanity.

[TK514]

With the Chantry relatively powerless without it's militant arm...

 

Where does this keep coming from?  The Chantry does not derive its power from the Templars, or the Mages, or through any other force of arms.  The Templars are a militant arm of the Chantry charged with policing magic.  They are not an army.  They are not a method for the Chantry to project force or coerce the nations of Thedas to comply.  No Exalted March ever was started because the Chantry said "If you don't send us your armies, we'll send in our police force for you to slaughter, and won't that show you!"

 

The Chantry's power is derived from the belief of the populace and national self-interest, which are both still very much intact.  The only thing the Chantry has lost is the administration of the Circles, which was a peripheral arm of the organization to begin with, at best.

[Steelcan]

Also many would debate how much actually changed in the American revolution, its immediate effects were essentially a return to the more de-centralized rule of pre 7 Years War America

[Master Warder Z_]

Also many would debate how much actually changed in the American revolution, its immediate effects were essentially a return to the more de-centralized rule of pre 7 Years War America

 

Well put.

[Samahl]

Notice the difference in time period, an ocean, and intervention of foreign powers.

 

Orlais has greater numbers, can simply MARCH to the Dales, and the elves would have no foreign powers willing to give them the vital support they would need.

 

You asserted that "forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence". I'm not saying that the elves will be able to pull off what the Americans did in exactly the same way (though I agree with Lob that there's a decent chance we'll be able to get Ferelden to back us up), but the point is, violent uprising is necessary in some cases.

[Gervaise]

I think numbers favoured both Andraste and the New Exalted Marches.   As Andraste's army moved through a weakened Imperium they picked up many followers along the way, human as well as elves.   One of her first conquests was Kirkwall where they freed the slaves there.   Given it was the main centre for the slave trade in the Imperium, the numbers must have been significant.    As for the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari, that involved practically every human nation in Thedas, including Tevinter.   

 

Orlais is weakened at present but no sufficiently so that an elf rebellion would be successful.    I doubt the Inquisition could summon the resources necessary to make a difference either.    Worst case scenario is that it might just be the catalyst needed for the two sides in the civil war to put aside their differences and unite.   Ferelden is currently officially at peace with Orlais an still recovering from the Blight.   I doubt they would be prepared to risk their own security just to assist the elves.   Nevarra might be willing to strike a blow at Orlais but again I doubt they'd risk it just to help a bunch of elves.  Same goes for any human state.   No one cares enough about the plight of the elves to risk antagonising Orlais.    Much better to negotiate a settlement of some sort than fight for it, particularly since we are trying to reduce the amount of chaos and bloodshed in order to close the rift. 

[Steelcan]

You asserted that "forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence". I'm not saying that the elves will be able to pull off what the Americans did in exactly the same way (though I agree with Lob that there's a decent chance we'll be able to get Ferelden to back us up), but the point is, violent uprising is necessary in some cases.

the country with a law the practically legalizes killing elves?  The one where Anora puts down an elven rebellion?

[TK514]

I think a treaty between the elves of an independent Dales and the leadership of Ferelden could be forged, given the mutual concern the two would have about Orlais and their inclination for conquest.

 

I'd say a treaty between the elves of an independent Dales and the leadership of Ferelden would be meaningless, if it was even possible, given that the humans of Ferelden treat elves just as abominably as the humans of every other nation, to the point they wouldn't even let them peacefully settle in the worthless blighted Hinterlands.  And it's still illegal to defend and elf against a human in Ferelden.

 

If given a choice between letting the elves get uppity or working with Orlais to put them in their place, I think there would be plenty of Ferelden willing to lend their arms to their cheese eating fellow humans to the north.  I'd bet Orlais would even be willing to let the Dog Lords keep a little of the Dales as an incentive.  Until the next war, of course.  So more of a loan.

[Master Warder Z_]

You asserted that "forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence". I'm not saying that the elves will be able to pull off what the Americans did in exactly the same way (though I agree with Lob that there's a decent chance we'll be able to get Ferelden to back us up), but the point is, violent uprising is necessary in some cases.

 

You think getting the Nation that is recovering from it's own grief to assist you will be more boon then hindrance? For one? There are only two land routes into the Empire, Second its pretty obvious from TME that both parts of Orlais's little civil war will abandon their personal struggle the moment Orlais comes under threat from a third party. Third and most important Fereldan never was a major military power, Even if they granted assistance (fat chance of that) it would be token efforts that likely wouldn't amount to more then a handful of mercenaries or arms shipments.

 

Orlais is Orlais, It admittled isn't at the peak of it's power, but even divided its armies are still several times larger then Fereldan's, add in that there is every chance in the world of them actually getting their **** together during said crisis and marching an army down there to restore order, and it's a delusion to me.

 

Orlais is the strongest country in Thedas for a reason.

[Master Warder Z_]

the country with a law the practically legalizes killing elves?  The one where Anora puts down an elven rebellion?

 

Got to love the pro elf argument that counts on the aid of a Nation nearly exactly like Orlais in treatment of the elves

[Steelcan]

 

Orlais is the strongest country in Thedas for a reason.

I'm sure the Qunari are eager to contest that again

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Got to love the pro elf argument that counts on the aid of a Nation nearly exactly like Orlais in treatment of the elves

 

But... but FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!

[MisterJB]

Since Felassan compared Arlathan to Orlais, are you saying Orlais is involved in slavery? Perhaps you share the elven Warden's possible view on the treatment of Orlesian elves?

The elven Warden who has never been to Orlais has an opinion on Orlais.

[Steelcan]

But... but FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!

those are Scots, the Fereldens are English

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm sure the Qunari are eager to contest that again

 

I am sure and i look forward to kicking their horned asses back to the Kermlin 

 

 

But... but FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!

 

People tend to forget the end of that story, He died, The British killed him

 

If you were talking about Wallace anyway.