2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Quite true; sometimes, violence is necessary for people to gain their freedom. Or, if we need a Thedas equivalent, the battles launched against the Imperium by Shartan and Andraste. Or the war against the Qunari called the New Exalted Marches.

In concrete terms, the American rebellion gave no person "freedom". In fact, it - along with other social and technological developments - helped to solidify the control of the southern American planter aristocracy over millions of human beings in actual bondage. It also made it easier for white settlers to expand their domination over the indigenous population of the continent. It resulted in thousands of deaths from direct military action and tens of thousands of deaths from disease and malnourishment. It fractured trade relationships and made thousands of people poorer as a result.

The slogans of the American Revolution and the ideology it propounded eventually became incredibly important to world history and to movements for freedom everywhere, but the republic that the war spawned was not obviously a better place for the people who lived there than it had been before. It took decades, even centuries, before the United States was a place that could seriously lord its republicanism over the rest of the world as a ideal to look up to instead of as a cautionary tale. America required a horrific civil war to end chattel slavery, unlike every single country in Europe (with the possible exception of France, depending on how you feel about the Haitian revolution); when Tsarist Russia emancipated its serfs in 1861, the proceedings were almost entirely peaceful in sharp contrast to the industrialized slaughter happening at the same time in the USA.

[LobselVith8]

Where does this keep coming from?  The Chantry does not derive its power from the Templars, or the Mages, or through any other force of arms.  The Templars are a militant arm of the Chantry charged with policing magic.  They are not an army.  They are not a method for the Chantry to project force or coerce the nations of Thedas to comply.  No Exalted March ever was started because the Chantry said "If you don't send us your armies, we'll send in our police force for you to slaughter, and won't that show you!"

 

The Chantry's power is derived from the belief of the populace and national self-interest, which are both still very much intact.  The only thing the Chantry has lost is the administration of the Circles, which was a peripheral arm of the organization to begin with, at best.

 

I address it because the Inquisitor seems to be viewed with some religious significance due to surviving the cataclysm at the site of Andraste's ashes, and with the potential incorporation of either the templars or the mages into the fledgling organization, it seems that the protagonist can fill in the power vacuum left in the wake of the Chantry being in disarray; it also provides a potential rival to the Chantry's power base because it's an organization lead by someone who people view with some religious connotations.

 

I'd say a treaty between the elves of an independent Dales and the leadership of Ferelden would be meaningless, if it was even possible, given that the humans of Ferelden treat elves just as abominably as the humans of every other nation, to the point they wouldn't even let them peacefully settle in the worthless blighted Hinterlands.  And it's still illegal to defend and elf against a human in Ferelden.

 

If given a choice between letting the elves get uppity or working with Orlais to put them in their place, I think there would be plenty of Ferelden willing to lend their arms to their cheese eating fellow humans to the north.  I'd bet Orlais would even be willing to let the Dog Lords keep a little of the Dales as an incentive.  Until the next war, of course.  So more of a loan.

 

Queen Anora was willing to try to make some improves for the elves of the Alienage (although those weren't sufficient enough) and King Alistair is willing to place an elf in the royal court as a representative of the elves, so I don't think it would be meaningless. Both rulers are willing to help the elves, and I doubt either one would be opposed to a treaty with an independent Dales simply because the inhabitants are elven, so I don't think a treaty would be meaningless. There's also the common interest in viewing Orlais as a potential threat to their sovereignty, and I highly doubt people who shared Loghain's mindset about the threat the Orleians pose would help them simply because the two are human.

[Samahl]

Ferelden is largely anti-elf, but neither of the potential monarchs are. If the both the Warden and the Inquisitor are elven, I'd think that'd make an impression.

[LobselVith8]

The elven Warden who has never been to Orlais has an opinion on Orlais.

 

Just like most people have an opinion about Tevinter despite never having been to the Imperium, I suppose. And since I was asking for clarification about another poster's views, I don't see your point.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ferelden is largely anti-elf, but neither of the potential monarchs are. If the both the Warden and the Inquisitor are elven, I'd think that'd make an impression.

 

Which means all of jack diddly squat in a land where you have to host the Bannorn to get anything to done.

 

Fereldan unfortunately isn't an absolute Monarchy, and therefore the opinions of the King or Queen are a secondary concern, to how the vast majority of the nobility feel.

[Steelcan]

Ferelden is largely anti-elf, but neither of the potential monarchs are.

Anora is pro-pro-Anora as long as the elves are willing to help her she will be fine with them, but that's the extnet of her sympathy, Alistair might feel genuine sympathy with them, but if he isn't hardened then I don't see anything coming out of it

[LobselVith8]

In concrete terms, the American rebellion gave no person "freedom". In fact, it - along with other social and technological developments - helped to solidify the control of the southern American planter aristocracy over millions of human beings in actual bondage. It also made it easier for white settlers to expand their domination over the indigenous population of the continent. It resulted in thousands of deaths from direct military action and tens of thousands of deaths from disease and malnourishment. It fractured trade relationships and made thousands of people poorer as a result.

The slogans of the American Revolution and the ideology it propounded eventually became incredibly important to world history and to movements for freedom everywhere, but the republic that the war spawned was not obviously a better place for the people who lived there than it had been before. It took decades, even centuries, before the United States was a place that could seriously lord its republicanism over the rest of the world as a ideal to look up to instead of as a cautionary tale. America required a horrific civil war to end chattel slavery, unlike every single country in Europe (with the possible exception of France, depending on how you feel about the Haitian revolution); when Tsarist Russia emancipated its serfs in 1861, the proceedings were almost entirely peaceful in sharp contrast to the industrialized slaughter happening at the same time in the USA.

 

You understand that the point that was brought up was that it gave the States autonomy from Great Britain, right? Similar to how some would support the Dales gaining independence from the Orlesian Empire.

 

No one claimed it was an exact analogy, which is why this entire post of yours doesn't really address anything that was actually brought up when it was originally cited. In fact, we can look at a multitude of other examples for armed rebellions that lead to freedom if you don't want to include it. Interestingly, we can even look at the fictitious history of Thedas to do the same. The simple point is that sometimes violence is necessary.

[Daerog]

How about the Dalish just wipe out the Avvars, Chasind, or any other barbarian group, take their land to live on, and open up diplomatic relations with neighboring powers. Could start with: "hey, we took out those pests and raiders, wanna trade? We have unique woodcraft stuff, very fashionable for modern nobles!" They don't need to take land from established, stable(ish) nations.

[Steelcan]

How about the Dalish just wipe out the Avvars, Chasind, or any other barbarian group, take their land to live on, and open up diplomatic relations with neighboring powers. Could start with: "hey, we took out those pests and raiders, wanna trade? We have unique woodcraft stuff, very fashionable for modern nobles!" They don't need to take land from established, stable(ish) nations.

because those lands are worthless?

[LobselVith8]

How about the Dalish just wipe out the Avvars, Chasind, or any other barbarian group, take their land to live on, and open up diplomatic relations with neighboring powers. Could start with: "hey, we took out those pests and raiders, wanna trade? We have unique woodcraft stuff, very fashionable for modern nobles!" They don't need to take land from established, stable(ish) nations.

 

The Dales is mentioned by some of us due to how we think it may actually be part of the storyline in the Dales (which is one of the locations in Inquisition), given the heavy elven population, the mass exodus of humans because of the civil war between Celene and Gaspard, and the talk about an elven rebellion in the area, including Briala's efforts to fight for elven freedom.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

How about the Dalish just wipe out the Avvars, Chasind, or any other barbarian group, take their land to live on, and open up diplomatic relations with neighboring powers. Could start with: "hey, we took out those pests and raiders, wanna trade? We have unique woodcraft stuff, very fashionable for modern nobles!" They don't need to take land from established, stable(ish) nations.

 

Except they wouldn't do it.

 

Being too dumb to live the Dalish would loudly proclaim "We will never submit! You are not welcome here Shems! Intruders will be shot on sight! We will not convert! We will not sell you our nifty nick knacks!"

 

Then there'd be a border incident in a century or so and Orlais would ROFLstomp them.

[Master Warder Z_]

because those lands are worthless?

 

The Wilds are chilly i have been told.

[Steelcan]

Then there'd be a border incident in a century or so and Orlais would ROFLstomp them.

again

[Daerog]

because those lands are worthless?

It would be a start with little tension from the major powers. It may even score points with Fereldans. Chasind land is a giant forest and swamp, just as good or better than the dalish have it now.

 

Although, they would wipe out another culture and religion, but who cares, they are dirty humans.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

again

 

[Samahl]

Anora is pro-pro-Anora as long as the elves are willing to help her she will be fine with them, but that's the extnet of her sympathy, Alistair might feel genuine sympathy with them, but if he isn't hardened then I don't see anything coming out of it

 

And I think an elven Inquisitor might have something to offer her. If we are given the chance to help the elves and secure the Dales, I don't see why Ferelden wouldn't welcome a potential ally. Even if they wanted to stay out of it, Orlais would come for them sooner or later.

[dragonflight288]

Where does this keep coming from?  The Chantry does not derive its power from the Templars, or the Mages, or through any other force of arms.  The Templars are a militant arm of the Chantry charged with policing magic.  They are not an army.  They are not a method for the Chantry to project force or coerce the nations of Thedas to comply.  No Exalted March ever was started because the Chantry said "If you don't send us your armies, we'll send in our police force for you to slaughter, and won't that show you!"

 

The Chantry's power is derived from the belief of the populace and national self-interest, which are both still very much intact.  The only thing the Chantry has lost is the administration of the Circles, which was a peripheral arm of the organization to begin with, at best.

 

The Chantry's power also comes from the threat of Exalted Marches when it comes to dealing with other nations that aren't believers. They were founded by Drakon I exalted marching all the neighboring city-states to form Orlais and found the Chantry. They used Exalted Marches against the Qunari, the Rivaini converts to the Qun, the Imperium and the Dales. 

 

They have a great deal of power and influence among believers in areas they've established dominance, but not so much outside of those areas.

 

Without templars and without a circle of magi, the threat of an exalted march has become laughable. 

[TK514]

I address it because the Inquisitor seems to be viewed with some religious significance due to surviving the cataclysm at the site of Andraste's ashes, and with the potential incorporation of either the templars or the mages into the fledgling organization, it seems that the protagonist can fill in the power vacuum left in the wake of the Chantry being in disarray; it also provides a potential rival to the Chantry's power base because it's an organization lead by someone who people view with some religious connotations.

 

Except the Chantry is not in disarray.  The Chantry leadership is, and will be for a time, but the Chantry itself is too monolithic and pervasive for the events at the Temple to have shaken its day to day operations.  All those Chantries throughout Thedas will keep holding services and keep tending their flocks until a new Divine is elected, and then it will be back to business as usual.  Even the potential 'Inquisitor as a religious figure' development won't overly shake the Faith.  There might be pockets of instability around the Inquisitor if they choose to be a destabilizing influence, but even those won't last for long in the face of an organization as entrenched as the Chantry.  Even the biggest anti-Chantry or ass of an Inquisitor can be shown to the faithful as "proof that the Maker can find use even in His least and most wretched children."  You're not going to change, or even dent, thousands of years of indoctrination overnight.

 

Queen Anora was willing to try to make some improves for the elves of the Alienage (although those weren't sufficient enough) and King Alistair is willing to place an elf in the royal court as a representative of the elves, so I don't think it would be meaningless. Both rulers are willing to help the elves, and I doubt either one would be opposed to a treaty with an independent Dales simply because the inhabitants are elven, so I don't think a treaty would be meaningless. There's also the common interest in viewing Orlais as a potential threat to their sovereignty, and I highly doubt people who shared Loghain's mindset about the threat the Orleians pose would help them simply because the two are human.

 

This is the same Anora that purged the Alienage?  Very pro-elf of her.  And the same Alistair that gets embarrassed and apologizes to Merrill for that whole elf thing not working out?

 

When it comes to the elves, the history of Thedas shows a pattern where being human is more important than being national.

 

Ferelden is largely anti-elf, but neither of the potential monarchs are. If the both the Warden and the Inquisitor are elven, I'd think that'd make an impression.

 

I'd agree that the Ferelden monarchy isn't particularly anti-elf, but they've shown little ability or desire to actually prevent their human populace from doing whatever they want to the elves in Ferelden.  Good intentions are meaningless if you won't act on them.  And seeing how the monarchy in Ferelden is not as absolute as it might be in other countries, they may not be able to intervene.

[Steelcan]

It would be a start with little tension from the major powers. It may even score points with Fereldans. Chasind land is a giant forest and swamp, just as good or better than the dalish have it now.

 

Although, they would wipe out another culture and religion, but who cares, they are dirty humans.

I think the Dalish would have to be truly desperate to wage a war with the Chascind, they'd have to gather the clans together, then wage what will inevitably be a long war of attrition in unfriendly territoy

[Samahl]

I'd agree that the Ferelden monarchy isn't particularly anti-elf, but they've shown little ability or desire to actually prevent their human populace from doing whatever they want to the elves in Ferelden.  Good intentions are meaningless if you won't act on them.  And seeing how the monarchy in Ferelden is not as absolute as it might be in other countries, they may not be able to intervene.

 

I actually completely agree with you here. Some of my hope is wishful thinking, to tell the truth. Even if Ferelden doesn't help out though, I do think we'll be able to make some progress in our own right.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Drakon's Exalted Marches weren't true Exalted Marches. They were before The Chantry, he just unified Orlais by force in the name of the Maker. The Rivaini converts weren't a target of their own March, they were civilian victims of the Qunari Wars.

The Chantry has used violence against non believers before, but they have also tolerated large nearby non Andrastian communities for long periods as well.

[Aimi]

You understand that the point that was brought up was that it gave the States autonomy from Great Britain, right? Similar to how some would support the Dales gaining independence from the Orlesian Empire.
 
No one claimed it was an exact analogy, which is why this entire post of yours doesn't really address anything that was actually brought up when it was originally cited. In fact, we can look at a multitude of other examples for armed rebellions that lead to freedom if you don't want to include it. Interestingly, we can even look at the fictitious history of Thedas to do the same. The simple point is that sometimes violence is necessary.

One might also make the point that outside of Africa, no British colonies fought wars of independence against the Crown in order to get independence. Had the Americans not resorted to violence, they probably would've ended up gaining autonomy and then independence like all the other white dominions.

Your point is that "sometimes" (when?) it's "necessary" (not actually proven, because you fail to investigate alternatives and simply state that what did happen must have happened) to resort to violence in order to gain "freedom" (which mostly doesn't actually mean freedom in a sense that average people would consider to be desirable, and which often actually means a decrease in actual, legal freedom).

That...that's not really much of a point at all. You're saying it's not an exact analogy: well, what part of it is an analogy? The part where a Dalish war of national independence probably isn't necessary? Or the part where the bleeding and killing and dying makes things worse even for a lot of the people who didn't die?

1. Start war for independence
2. Lots of death and destruction and impoverishment
3. ???
4. Profit!

[Master Warder Z_]

Drakon's Exalted Marches weren't true Exalted Marches. They were before The Chantry, he just unified Orlais by force in the name of the Maker. The Rivaini converts weren't a target of their own March, they were civilian victims of the Qunari Wars.

The Chantry has used violence against non believers before, but they have also tolerated large nearby non Andrastian communities for long periods as well.

 

You don't see the Chantry sending armies to that bloody Qunari military fort in Rivaian do you?

 

:/ Despite it being "illegal" as hell under the peace treaty.

[Daerog]

I think the Dalish would have to be truly desperate to wage a war with the Chascind, they'd have to gather the clans together, then wage what will inevitably be a long war of attrition in unfriendly territoy

 

Ya, that's true... oh, well. Thaig and Wilds, cross them off the list then.

[Steelcan]

One might also make the point that outside of Africa, no British colonies fought wars of independence against the Crown in order to get independence. Had the Americans not resorted to violence, they probably would've ended up gaining autonomy and then independence like all the other white dominions.
 

Except the Irish, because if nothing else England will find time to oppress the Irish